Lost income?

[Lmarletto]

I thought I should come here to get the low down ;) , because I'm not sure what to think of the ranting I heard at the rink this weekend. I understand, in principle at least, coaches charging for lost income when they accompany a skater to a competition. But the story I heard from a skating mom seemed more like a scam.

Her daughter's coach charges a fixed competition fee (one lesson or maybe an hour's worth of lessons, I didn't quite follow) plus lost income from the lessons with other students that are missed due to being away, and then expenses (food, lodging, travel, whichever may apply). So first off, this mom is upset at the competition fee plus lost income because, "You can't do two jobs at once. You're either at a competition or teaching lessons. Why should you get paid twice?" I think she was OK with paying for the lost income and thought the competition fee on top of that was the paying twice part. Her argument sounded reasonable to me, but I just nodded sympathetically because I have no idea what the convention is. Then she goes on to tell me that she found out later that two of the coach's students that were part of the lost income calculation had cancelled their lessons for that weekend. She was really upset about that. And it did make it seem as if the coach was being dishonest, imo. But I didn't exactly get the feeling I was getting a completely objective assessment of the situation. ;)

So I thought I should hear from some disinterested third parties about how these things typically work. I can see that this is something I'm going to need to know about in the near future.

I'd also like to hear how other parents handle those parents who complain about their kids coaches. I suggested a couple of times that she should talk to the coach, because it wasn't a healthy situation for anyone if she was angry, but beyond that I just kept my thoughts to myself. I'm thinking she might be someone to steer clear of.

[jp1andOnly]

I thought I should come here to get the low down ;) , because I'm not sure what to think of the ranting I heard at the rink this weekend. I understand, in principle at least, coaches charging for lost income when they accompany a skater to a competition. But the story I heard from a skating mom seemed more like a scam.

Her daughter's coach charges a fixed competition fee (one lesson or maybe an hour's worth of lessons, I didn't quite follow) plus lost income from the lessons with other students that are missed due to being away, and then expenses (food, lodging, travel, whichever may apply). So first off, this mom is upset at the competition fee plus lost income because, "You can't do two jobs at once. You're either at a competition or teaching lessons. Why should you get paid twice?
I think she was OK with paying for the lost income and thought the competition fee on top of that was the paying twice part. Her argument sounded reasonable to me, but I just nodded sympathetically because I have no idea what the convention is. Then she goes on to tell me that she found out later that two of the coach's students that were part of the lost income calculation had cancelled their lessons for that weekend. She was really upset about that. And it did make it seem as if the coach was being dishonest, imo. But I didn't exactly get the feeling I was getting a completely objective assessment of the situation. ;)

So I thought I should hear from some disinterested third parties about how these things typically work. I can see that this is something I'm going to need to know about in the near future.

I'd also like to hear how other parents handle those parents who complain about their kids coaches. I suggested a couple of times that she should talk to the coach, because it wasn't a healthy situation for anyone if she was angry, but beyond that I just kept my thoughts to myself. I'm thinking she might be someone to steer clear of.


Coaches do not have a set salary (making X thousands of dollars per year or even per month) and therefore when required to be away must charge for lost income. A coach could be at a competition every weekend and therefore unable to earn any money. They also have to pay out of pocket expenses, put a bill into their student(s) and wait to get paid. I know I have been guilty of not paying my coaches bills on a timely manner (i should do them every 2 weeks but I usually pay them monthly) and therefore they don't have a salary to live off of. What if every skater didn't pay for over a month....the poor coach would starve!

As for the students who cancelled...prehaps they didn't let the coach know ahead of time. And think about it, when a skater cancels a lesson, most coaches can grab another one of their skaters and give them that spot. So in essencec the coach was charging for missed lesson time of ANY skater, not just the ones scheduled specifically at that time.

IMO the coach is doing everything he/she should and is not ripping the parent off. If the skater was the only competitor the coach has, yes the bill will be high, but if there were other competitors the fees should have been equally divided.

As for what to say to the mom..tell her to talk to the coach. Tell her thats the rules as far as you know and that if she wants clarification she needs to talk to the coach about the bill. Perhaps she was shocked if this was her first time competiting. The coach should have explained competition fees, etc so the coahc didn't do their part the way they should have

[pinkjellybean]

Coaches do not have a set salary (making X thousands of dollars per year or even per month) and therefore when required to be away must charge for lost income. A coach could be at a competition every weekend and therefore unable to earn any money. They also have to pay out of pocket expenses, put a bill into their student(s) and wait to get paid. I know I have been guilty of not paying my coaches bills on a timely manner (i should do them every 2 weeks but I usually pay them monthly) and therefore they don't have a salary to live off of. What if every skater didn't pay for over a month....the poor coach would starve!

As for the students who cancelled...prehaps they didn't let the coach know ahead of time. And think about it, when a skater cancels a lesson, most coaches can grab another one of their skaters and give them that spot. So in essencec the coach was charging for missed lesson time of ANY skater, not just the ones scheduled specifically at that time.

IMO the coach is doing everything he/she should and is not ripping the parent off. If the skater was the only competitor the coach has, yes the bill will be high, but if there were other competitors the fees should have been equally divided.

As for what to say to the mom..tell her to talk to the coach. Tell her thats the rules as far as you know and that if she wants clarification she needs to talk to the coach about the bill. Perhaps she was shocked if this was her first time competiting. The coach should have explained competition fees, etc so the coahc didn't do their part the way they should have
I totaly agree... I know that it gets expensive but that's the nature of the best I guess... Some coaches charge more than others but there's always going to be a range... If the charges seem really out of line or if the mother would like a bit more of an explanation then there's no harm in talking to the coach. My coach always had a letter of sorts that you got when you first started with her and before your first competition which was helpful, there were no suprises in billing (it was still expensive though)

[fadedstardust]

Yup, while it's true that you shouldn't have to "pay twice", you do. You cover lost income, plus expenses, plus the actual COACHING that the coach does, cause that's just it- they don't JUST lose coaching time at the rink, they are mentally (and physically at practice ice) coaching the kid while they are away, so the parent is paying for two separate things. The parent is lucky because some higher-end coaches charge per hour that they are at the competition rink, not a fixed rate, and that gets very high very fast.

I would suggest you smile, nod, and say NOTHING to the other parent. I wouldn't suggest you tell her to talk to her coach, that's for her to decide, and later on she could tell the coach "I wasn't going to talk to you about this but X PARENT thought I should" or imply that you also thought it was strange practice to up her credibility. I've had things like that happen so I stay out of everything, and so does my mom. The best thing you can do to keep cost down at comps is to have more than one kid going with that same coach, in which case the only feee that remains the same is the comp fee itself, and then the loss of income and incurred charges are split by the number of students.

[dbny]

What you have described is SOP among competitive coaches. I know one coach who does not charge for competitions, but also does not accompany students unless the comps are at home and conveniently scheduled. This coach did explain that if lessons were missed due to the competition, then there would be a fee for that lost income.

[Mrs Redboots]

The thing to do is to discuss with your coach beforehand exactly what his or her presence at the competition is going to cost you, and then decide if it is worth asking him/her to go along. It's nice to have your coach with you, but at the lower levels it isn't really necessary, as you can do what is needed for your skater. Of course, if your coach has several skaters at a competition, it works out cheaper because you share the expenses with the other skaters.

The only reason I'd want my coach at a competition now is to see what our opposition is like, so he is more rigorous in training us!

[mary]

I would suggest you smile, nod, and say NOTHING to the other parent. I wouldn't suggest you tell her to talk to her coach, that's for her to decide, and later on she could tell the coach "I wasn't going to talk to you about this but X PARENT thought I should" or imply that you also thought it was strange practice to up her credibility. I've had things like that happen so I stay out of everything, and so does my mom.

The statement above is so true! Don't offer her any advice because most likely she will say that YOU suggested she talk to the coach and that YOU thought it was an unusual billing practice or whatever. Been there, done that. :roll:

[NCSkater02]

I only do local comps, so no travel expenses are involved. My coach charges a 15 minute lesson fee per event. So, since I did compulsaries and free at three comps this past year, I paid for six events, a total of about a hour and a half of lesson time.

Since this was my first year competing, her biggest job was to talk me down. I was a big bundle of nerves. My main coach did a great job with this. My secondary wasn't quite as calming.

[manleywoman]

I know I have been guilty of not paying my coaches bills on a timely manner (i should do them every 2 weeks but I usually pay them monthly) and therefore they don't have a salary to live off of. What if every skater didn't pay for over a month....the poor coach would starve!


I have three coaches (1 for figures, 2 for freestyle). I pay my coaches as soon as they hand me a bill, but one of them only hands me a bill every 6 months or so! And by then it's huge! :oops:

I know of some parents who don't pay regularly at all, and in a few cases have left that rink and taken their kid to another coach without paying the previous coach's bill (and the new coach doesn't check!). Considering how well-off these people are -- or supposedly are -- it's pretty disgusting.

If I were a coach I'd be a stickler for making sure I was paid. (of course, my husband and I run our own business and it's my job to make sure we get paid, so I'm used to it!)

[Michigansk8er]

Where I skate, lost lessons are not really an issue...............since the coaches generally sign up all of their skaters for the same competition. You can't have lost lessons with no one at home. A lucky situation for us. I understand the reason for charging for the lost lesson time, but if I were billed for the time, I'd want a detailed invoice. I've also known parents that have negotiated competition fees. After all, they are the employer of the coach. I think sometimes, parents forget this. One parent I know switched coaches and assumed all coaches had the same charges for competitions. She went into shock when she got a $1200 bill (this was her share...........and the coach was only a $40/hr coach). Definitely know the details before agreeing to take a coach.

[mary]

My daughter's coach charges for lessons at the competition, a set fee for each event she's scheduled to skate, and splits the airfare/hotel room/car rental with all skaters she works with. She doesn't charge for meals, although she does charge for gas if she drives a long distance.

[jenlyon60]

My coach charges for lost earnings. He will split the "lost earnings" (as well as his travel & per diem) among all the skaters he has in an out of town competition.

He put together a sheet with all his fees (coaching at home rink, test session skating [coaching and/or partnering], lost earnings, cancellation policies, etc.) and provides a copy to every student and/or parent and requests a signed acknowledgement back from the student and/or parent (depending on age...)

[Michigansk8er]

He put together a sheet with all his fees (coaching at home rink, test session skating [coaching and/or partnering], lost earnings, cancellation policies, etc.) and provides a copy to every student and/or parent and requests a signed acknowledgement back from the student and/or parent (depending on age...)

Sounds like a coach with his act together.

[roogu]

Then she goes on to tell me that she found out later that two of the coach's students that were part of the lost income calculation had cancelled their lessons for that weekend. She was really upset about that.


Did those kids cancel ahead of time with proper notice? Because a lot of coaches require a 24 hour cancellation policy or they go ahead and charge the lesson anyway.



As for charging lost wages .... it's standard practice, but altho mainly it's competitive coaches that do it. I don't see anything wrong with what the coach did. But at the same time, this coach probably should have provided a fee schedule for this parent at the beginning of the season outlining his fees and competition policies.

[twokidsskatemom]

My dd just had a comp which she had 6 events.Our coach didnt charge cause she said we had overpaid anyway.
At away ones, so far we have only paid for hotels air car and lessons.
we pay every two weeks, the day dh gets paid.Our coach just knows we will pay so its an non issue.
IM not sure if I agree with payment of lost wages, I think it should be a win win for coach and student.We dont have comps every week so maybe that is why it isnt dealt with here that way.
My dd coach had kids at regionals and has kids at jr nationals next week, I dont think she is changing for lost lessons.

[Mrs Redboots]

Sounds like a coach with his act together.He is an English coach, and this is standard practice in this country - I typed up a similar sheet for my own coach last time he had to raise his prices. But then, coaching here requires several years' training before you can even start!

[Lmarletto]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. It sounds as if the coach is pretty typical. I'm not sure of all the little details, just what furious skate mom told me. Her daughter has been competing for a while. I suspect she's just one of those people who always thinks she's being taken advantage of.
I would suggest you smile, nod, and say NOTHING to the other parent. I wouldn't suggest you tell her to talk to her coach, that's for her to decide, and later on she could tell the coach "I wasn't going to talk to you about this but X PARENT thought I should" or imply that you also thought it was strange practice to up her credibility. I've had things like that happen so I stay out of everything, and so does my mom.
I did make a point not to take sides, but it didn't occur to me to be this paranoid. It's probably good advice, especially with a parent like this one.

[Sk8tngMommy]

You don't say what country you are in but I do know what the Skate Canada guidelines are.

According to Skate Canada guidelines, the following is what coaches are allowed to charge:

Competitions:

1 lesson fee per event (15 minute lesson fee)
2 lesson fees if it is a competitive event
If there is practice ice, you are charged your normal lesson fee IE: 1 hour of practice ice = 1 hour of lesson time
Meals
Mileage @ 35 cents per km
Airfare
Hotel accom.
Babysitting (if needed)
Coaches DO NOT charge for missed lessons for other skaters
Coaches are also encouraged to travel with skaters or other coaches to keep expenses down, and all expenses are to be divided equally among the skaters competing

Test Days:

Mileage
Meals
Skills Test : 2 Lesson Fees
FS Test: 2 Lesson Fees
Dance Test: 1 Lesson Fee

Thank goodness my daughter's coach is reasonable! She often travels with us and shares a room with us to keep the cost down. We just went to a comp. last weekend and all it cost me was lesson fees. She never bills for meals, and she never bills for babysitting either. Often times, we pick up the tab for her meals out of appreciation for her being so reasonable.

[Blosmbubbs]

I have a new coach and she only charges for the competition events. If we were to go travel to a competition I would pay for the room and meals. My old coach would charge for everything and I could not take it anymore plus some other issues I was having with her. She is a great person but I needed to move on.

[Aussie Willy]

Just a perspective from another industry. I am not necessarily commenting on whether I agree or disagree with what the initial post is.

I am a driving instructor and we can be asked to take a student to a driving test and then sit in the car on the driving test.

Now our normal lesson price is $30 per 45 minute. For a driving test we charge $130. That includes picking up the student an hour before the test and giving them a lesson, then sitting with them on the test, and then driving them home (which most instructors don't but the school I represent does and I really don't mind doing it). There is also the waiting for them to get the licence after the test. It does not matter whether the student passes or fails, it is the same fee. However we do charge a reduced fee if the student has to do the test again which is $95. So the total amount of time I would spend for this is about 2 to 2 1/2 hours. Part of the fee does factor in that during the time of the test, we are unable to do other lessons.

I also tell myself that taking a student on a test is a big responsibility because I have to make sure I don't touch my set of pedals because the student could fail if I do that (there is a buzzer attached to the pedals).

However the fee we charge is a set amount. We don't calculate how many actual lessons we lose which I think is what the parent was complaining about. So maybe it is better for a coach to have a set fee which includes those lost lessons rather than calculating for the number of lessons lost and then telling the parent what that fee is.

[fadedstardust]

I have a new coach and she only charges for the competition events. If we were to go travel to a competition I would pay for the room and meals. My old coach would charge for everything and I could not take it anymore plus some other issues I was having with her. She is a great person but I needed to move on.

Well, I personally think having to pay for lost lessons and meals is unfair, even if it is standard procedures. I do however think that you should pay for plane fare on top of the room.

[jp1andOnly]

Well, I personally think having to pay for lost lessons and meals is unfair, even if it is standard procedures. I do however think that you should pay for plane fare on top of the room.

Ok...say you were in a job that was contract position. Basically you got paid only when you were present and working with clients. A lot of your work was done on weekends. However, your company decided that there is an important client that you have to follow around on the weekends to provide them services. Basically you are gone every 3rd weekend or so. Sometimes you are required to leave on a Tues or Wed and don't get back until Sunday night.

As someone doing contract work, you'd only be getting paid for that one client. You would get the airfare and hotel covered but nothing else.

So economically it wouldn't be feasable for you to do it without charging the client for lost wages. The clients you would leave back home might get pissed off you you leaving all the time and they may switch. Also, perhaps the client you travel for doesn't pay you every two weeks and waits 2 months. So for 2 months you are giving up 2 weekends at least of lost income.


To make it more clear, whatever job you have now pretend i'm your employer..."hi, I'd like for you to go out of town to help a client. You will get paid for the time you spend with them helping them on the project (say 2-3 hours of wages) and hotel/airfare, but i will not pay you a salary for the 4 days you will be away"

[fadedstardust]

Yeah but your point does not apply because no contracts are involved in coaching situations unless you're an elite Senior skater, for the most part (some coaches do, but most don't). I actually think it would be much easier if coaches did draw out contracts with specific rates and conditions (such as charging "TBA" lost waves), that way parents wouldn't have any questions. I'm not saying I don't understand why coaches do it, I'm used to it, but I don't necessarily agree with it. At the end of the day, the coach chooses to coach skaters to competitions, so they know they will have to go. I think it's ludicrous that on top of asking for essentially a free vacation (free room and board) and charging the skater for being at the competition, that on top of that, the skater is responsible for paying the coach for work he essentially has not done. If the coach is not back home COACHING those students, she's not doing the work, no matter the reason, and shouldn't be paid for it. She's getting paid for the workd she is doing. Sometimes, some jobs pay less than others, if coaches don't want to lose out on money during comps, then they should send an assistant that doesn't have that many students. If they're going to commit to their students and be there for them at competitions, they shouldn't expect to get paid for work they're doing and "work they would be doing" if they were home.

[skaternum]

I actually think it would be much easier if coaches did draw out contracts with specific rates and conditions (such as charging "TBA" lost waves), that way parents wouldn't have any questions.Some coaches do this. Mine doesn't do a formal contract, but does something like what you're describing. When she agrees to coach a student, she gives them a sheet with her rates for coaching, competitions, and music editing. It also has her expectations for circumstances like missed or cancelled lessons, etc. Very professional and very helpful!

[skaterinjapan]

I think it's ludicrous that on top of asking for essentially a free vacation (free room and board) and charging the skater for being at the competition, that on top of that, the skater is responsible for paying the coach for work he essentially has not done. If the coach is not back home COACHING those students, she's not doing the work, no matter the reason, and shouldn't be paid for it.

I can understand this point, that the skater might feel as those they're paying double for lessons they're not receiving. However, as someone who has relied on income from private jobs in the past, I can understand the coach's point of view as well. First of all, I doubt that most coaches perceive competitions to be vacation time. A responsible coach wouldn't view the trip to a competition, even if free, as a vacation under most circumstances. After all, the skater's performance in competition is often viewed as a reflection of the coach. It is in the coach's best interest to prepare the skater throughout the trip--attending warm-ups, offering on- and off-ice advice, etc.

Second, if you take into account the cost of all such preparation in contrast with the amount of lessons the coach is missing back home, it seems that asking students to pay for the missed lessons of others might be reasonable. In a given weekend, it is plausible for a top-level coach to make hundreds of dollars in over a dozen lessons. If that coach has to decide whether to lose that income in order to accompany a few skaters to a competition and in contrast only earn money for a much smaller number of lessons, the coach might very well be forced to turn down the competition offer. Secondarily, it also might play a role in limiting the number of competitions a skater expects her coach to attend. As horrible as this sounds (and as a skater myself, it's not something I necessarily agree with), a lot of it comes down to simple economics.

On a personal note, I do think that coaches should inform prospective students of any such policies when beginning lessons. It's an interesting dilemma. I don't know anyone who has been in this situation, but then again, I've been skating at a non-competitive rink for a while now!

[Mrs Redboots]

Some coaches do this. Mine doesn't do a formal contract, but does something like what you're describing. When she agrees to coach a student, she gives them a sheet with her rates for coaching, competitions, and music editing. It also has her expectations for circumstances like missed or cancelled lessons, etc. Very professional and very helpful!As, indeed, does mine - I typed the sheet up for him, once!

What annoys me is that the teachers here require, quite rightly, 24 hours' notice of a missed lesson or they will charge full fee. Mine actually doesn't if he knows you're not trying it on - he told me once there are some pupils, or rather their parents, who he will charge, because they mess him about. He doesn't charge me - but I pay him anyway, or, ideally, get my husband to take my lesson instead if I've woken up feeling unwell. I don't pay him if I've rung him the night before to cancel, though.

However, having said all that, if your teacher doesn't turn up for some reason without due warning, do you get a free lesson? Do you 'eck.... To be fair, mine will try to make it up at another time, if possible, but some teachers....

[skaterinjapan]

However, having said all that, if your teacher doesn't turn up for some reason without due warning, do you get a free lesson? Do you 'eck.... To be fair, mine will try to make it up at another time, if possible, but some teachers....

Good point! It is the responsibility of both the skater/parent and the coach to ensure that the working relationship functions with both parties getting the maximum benefit. If the coach is irresponsible, then I think it's perfectly fair for the parents to question his job performance. Ditto for the skater or parents!

[jenlyon60]

for me, if my coach is late for some reason (traffic usually) or no-shows without warning (illness), he's always worked it out.

Usually we just either schedule a make-up lesson or if it's lateness due to traffic or the like, do what time we can on that day and then add extra time to another lesson.

[Mrs Redboots]

I think a teacher who consistently behaved unprofessionally wouldn't have many pupils after a while! I was really thinking of those times when a lesson has to be missed because your teacher was stuck in traffic, or taken ill in the night, or whatever - you would expect to pay if you missed a lesson under those circumstances, and it would be only right and proper to do so, but the teacher wouldn't necessarily give you a free lesson!

Mind you, I did understand the day my lesson was cancelled unexpectedly because my teacher had to take his wife to hospital to have their first child! Apparently she was saying "Let's go and teach first, and then I'll go to hospital", but he was, quite rightly, having none of it! Their 2nd child, fortunately, managed to be born on a Tuesday so I got the requisite 24 hours' notice of my lesson being cancelled, and as I'd seen her on the Sunday and she was obviously about to go pop, I was neither surprised nor disappointed!