Proposed MIF Changes for Adults [Archive]

Spreadeagle

11-22-2004, 10:27 AM

I really hope this goes through. I prefer the Standard Track tests because they have a more natural progression of moves--the moves build on each other rather than just being a sort of random mishmash selection of moves like the adult tests. Like the NM on the Gold tests--without having first done the back perimeter power crossovers with back 3 turns (on IM test, is not on any adult tests) this move is harder in my opinion. But the back perimeter power crossovers with back 3 turns build on the power back 3's from Juv., which also don't appear on any adult tests.

I have also always thought it was silly that you couldn't substitute standard track moves tests for adult track. The adult Gold is practically the same as the standard Intermediate. I am glad they are finally not going to force skaters to take both tests. This will also help new adult skaters who might have passed some of the moves tests as kids. For example, a skater who passed Juv moves and free as a kid who is now required to skate Silver, won't have to waste as much time and $$ taking the adult moves tests.

Not sure if I will benefit from it though--my coach is wanting me to take those gold moves soon while the intermediate ones are still "fresh"!

sk8pics

11-22-2004, 11:18 AM

I'm just relieved to NOT see the alternating foward 3-turns moved to the Bronze moves test. Yes, they're important, and yes, I work on them all the time, but no, I don't see myself being able to do the alternating forward inside 3's any time soon.

I also like the changing of the primary focus in the Bronze moves from "power" to "continuous flow and strength." It makes it seem more possible to me, although I'm still a ways from being able to test.

Pat

Debbie S

11-22-2004, 02:41 PM

I'm just relieved to NOT see the alternating foward 3-turns moved to the Bronze moves test.

Me, too! Looks like they're gone from the adult track forever. I think that all the adult skaters who had to pass those in Pre-Bronze should get some sort of compensation for all the extra ice time needed to master them. :lol:

Seriously, I wish they had passed the earlier proposal that was posted on this forum around the time of AN last April. I would have rather them just use the standard track tests, with perhaps a few modifications, b/c as Spreadeagle pointed out, the standard track tests are a more logical progression of skills. I really wish they hadn't added the power pulls, but I may never test Silver MIF anyway. I don't think I'll ever be able to land an axel (I know, I know, never say never) so I'll probably never get to Silver FS.

fadedstardust

11-22-2004, 03:12 PM

I know the alternating 3-turns are a pain in the butt, and I didn't take them as an adult nor am I in the adult track so I know my opinion is "biased", but I think those alternating 3-turns are one of the single most important moves to master of them all, I'm very surprised they were taken off. They are the best thing to teach you to check- when I was learning my first jumps, those 3-turn patterns are what finally taught me to not curve and to check everything in my jumps. Any ideas as to why they took them out? Were a lot of people failing them/being held back just because of that move? I think it's a bummer that it's out, maybe they could have just put it on a higher level test?

NCSkater02

11-22-2004, 03:18 PM

I have yet to test PreBronze, will probably test it in the spring. I wonder if I can talk my coach into waiting until September? :lol:

NoVa Sk8r

11-22-2004, 03:23 PM

I'm with you on this one, but you don't need an axel for the silver FS test. And many folks (me included) have won silver competitions without landing an axel. So don't despair! :P

I don't think I'll ever be able to land an axel (I know, I know, never say never) so I'll probably never get to Silver FS.
I really hope the approved changes pass. As it sits now, I dread learning the novice move for the gold MIF.

sk8clean

11-22-2004, 03:43 PM

tazsk8s

11-22-2004, 03:56 PM

OK, I see good news and bad news for me at Silver.

Good news - slide chasse out.

Bad news - power pulls IN. Yack!!!

sk8er1964

11-22-2004, 04:05 PM

PreBronze without the alternating 3 turns... life would never be the same and skaters would not understand the pain and suffering we went through to master that skill. I would love to know the reason it was suggested to remove that.

Hee hee - because they're physically impossible? I never had to do them, but I've tried them and they are hard.

Life will be much easier for the Golds now w/out that Novice move (I think I failed that move in the CW direction on my Gold test).

phillyskater

11-22-2004, 04:08 PM

I'm surprised they didn't take the Pre-Preliminary spirals off the SILVER test. I've always thought that was a little insulting.

Too bad we can't ditch the #$^&%$#@ back 3-turns! :frus:

philly

Terri C

11-22-2004, 06:22 PM

I think that all the adult skaters who had to pass those in Pre-Bronze should get some sort of compensation for all the extra ice time needed to master them.

Like, excuse us from the power threes on Bronze MIF!!!! :idea: That would rock!

doubletoe

11-22-2004, 06:28 PM

I believe the proposed changes must be voted on in the May meeting. If passed they would begin September 05.

I liked the gold moves element being removed, but I'm sure I'm in a minority.

Whaddaya mean you're in the minority?! I think right now there must be 500 Silver skaters cheering that we aren't going to have to do those LFI-RFI3's on our next MIF test! Instead, we get to do a move we already did for the Silver test! :D

sk8pics

11-22-2004, 06:30 PM

I KNOW the alternating 3-turns are important. I KNOW we need to learn how to do them. And I DID say that I practice them every time I skate with my coach. But I am GLAD they are not on the pre-bronze test or the bronze test, for purely selfish reasons. I just don't think I will ever be able to do the forward inside 3's well enough to pass the test. Or at least not without many thousands of hours practicing them. :frus: :frus:

I actually think that is too difficult a skill for the first adult moves test, and I'm surprised the current proposal didn't just move them to a higher level. Of course, never say never! You don't know what more revisions will be proposed, or even if any of these will pass, for that matter.

Pat

doubletoe

11-22-2004, 06:31 PM

I'm surprised they didn't take the Pre-Preliminary spirals off the SILVER test. I've always thought that was a little insulting.

Too bad we can't ditch the #$^&%$#@ back 3-turns! :frus:

philly

It's frustrating--but not insulting--if you're a 30-40-year old man who can't move up to Silver because he isn't limber enough to do a spiral with his free foot at hip level or higher! I know at least two men who have had this problem, and one woman, too. I think it is actually very considerate of the USFSA to let the Adult Bronze skaters pass their test without it.

doubletoe

11-22-2004, 06:34 PM

I have yet to test PreBronze, will probably test it in the spring. I wonder if I can talk my coach into waiting until September? :lol:

If you only want to compete at Pre-Bronze level in your Sectionals comp. next year, there's no reason to take the test any earlier than September. :) Local competitions usually allow you to skate at Pre-Bronze with no test at all!

daisies

11-22-2004, 07:48 PM

It's frustrating--but not insulting--if you're a 30-40-year old man who can't move up to Silver because he isn't limber enough to do a spiral with his free foot at hip level or higher! I know at least two men who have had this problem, and one woman, too. I think it is actually very considerate of the USFSA to let the Adult Bronze skaters pass their test without it.

Exactly. Spirals are very difficult for adults. If you can do them well, more power to you! :)

icedancer2

11-22-2004, 08:01 PM

I definitely agree with the spiral thing -- I actually decided to NOT test standard track because I didn't want to have to do the spirals AT ALL and figured by the time I got to Silver level I could handle those "Pre-Pre Moves" spirals okay.

I thought the consecutive 3-turns (whatever they're called) were REALLY hard for the pre-Bronze level and most of the adult skaters I've seen have a hard time with them. Not that it probably really matters anymore, but there is something in the rules concerning adults taking this test that you can put your foot down and skate two-footed when you go to the other foot, but I also know that some judges don't know this and will ask for a Retry on that Move if the skater puts the foot down. (I will try to find the reference later) --

BUT I'm surprised they took that out altogether because as fadedstardust said, it is a really good move for learning about checking and edges and is also a really good lead-in for the power 3-turns.

I'm glad they are proposing some changes, though, because most of the adult skaters who started as adults at my rink didn't feel that they could EVER achieve the GOLD level the way they were set up initially.

Power pulls are definitely a good addition. I will need that!!

Good luck to all the skaters!

jazzpants

11-22-2004, 08:10 PM

OK, I see good news and bad news for me at Silver.

Good news - slide chasse out.

Bad news - power pulls IN. Yack!!!Oh, GAWD!!! Power pulls!!! There goes my knees!!! :cry:

Terri C - ITA on the @#$^% forward power 3's!!! And isn't it still subjective whether a move has "strength/flow" vs. "power"? Where do you draw the line on that?

pennybeagle

11-22-2004, 08:25 PM

Aww, man! My coach will definitely want me to test the gold MIF before September 05 (assuming that the proposals pass), but I would have loved to not have to endure more nightmares about crashing into the boards on the CW BI-FI three turns.

Michigansk8er

11-22-2004, 09:15 PM

No novice move from hell!!!!! How great would that be??? Of course, my coach has the nutty idea that I should test the gold moves this summer. Not if this passes, I won't. :D

Now, when are they going to change Silver to read no higher than pre-juv instead of juv? As it stands, a juv skater can chose either Silver or Gold.

Lurking Skater

11-22-2004, 10:25 PM

Looks like they want to replace my hated preliminary move with my hated pre-pre move. It makes me glad that I passed bronze already. Even though I hate the alternating 3s with a passion, having tested them on both tracks, they are beneficial and really strengthen your 3-turns.

I think the silver moves would be more balanced with the change. I've always thought that it was ridiculous to have one test encompass moves ranging from pre-preliminary to intermediate. I think the spirals should stay in the test. There needs to be some move that gets you to work on your spirals, plus it's the only silver move that I can do right now. :oops:

vesperholly

11-23-2004, 01:53 AM

I think a lot of these changes look very good. Kudos to the Adult Committee for really paying attention to what their audience needs and wants and responding so quickly and appropriately!! :bow:

2006 ANs in Dallas... I've never been to Texas, y'all!

LoopLoop

11-23-2004, 07:12 AM

I just wish they'd taken the novice move out of the gold test sooner...without that move I'd have passed gold at least 6 months sooner. I'm surprised that they're moving the slide chasse to gold rather than using the intermediate perimeter stroking with back power 3s.

flo

11-23-2004, 08:38 AM

skaternum

11-23-2004, 08:59 AM

Aww, man! My coach will definitely want me to test the gold MIF before September 05 (assuming that the proposals pass), ...
What? You can't fake an injury like the rest of us?? 8-)

skaternum

11-23-2004, 09:01 AM

Now, when are they going to change Silver to read no higher than pre-juv instead of juv? As it stands, a juv skater can chose either Silver or Gold.
I agree. This has always been a head scratcher for me. Seems like an oversight that should have been fixed by now.

LWalsh

11-23-2004, 10:21 AM

Regarding the "no higher than Juv" for both Silver and Gold levels. I think most people don't realize that an Axel hasn't always been required for Juv FS. Before all these pre-pre tests there was only Preliminary, Juv, Int. Nov...etc. I took Juv fs in 1981 - without an Axel. So the Silvers who are forced to skate Silver may never have landed an Axel. Since you have to pass the Adult FS tests in order to compete at all, a person passing Juv FS that can't do an Axel wouldn't qualify for anything at all because an Axel is required to pass Gold.

It's not even like you could say ok you have to compete Gold even if you don't have axel because you passed Juv FS. You still have to pass the test. In Masters if you've passed the kid test you get to compete regardless of what you can or can't do. Not so in the Adult track.

The only way it could be remedied is to lose the Axel requirement for Gold, but I doubt that will ever happen.

But I digress....and I am cheering that those evil inside threes could get removed from Gold.

Lwalsh

Mel On Ice

11-23-2004, 11:04 AM

skaternum

11-23-2004, 11:14 AM

Regarding the "no higher than Juv" for both Silver and Gold levels. I think most people don't realize that an Axel hasn't always been required for Juv FS. Before all these pre-pre tests there was only Preliminary, Juv, Int. Nov...etc. I took Juv fs in 1981 - without an Axel. So the Silvers who are forced to skate Silver may never have landed an Axel. Since you have to pass the Adult FS tests in order to compete at all, a person passing Juv FS that can't do an Axel wouldn't qualify for anything at all because an Axel is required to pass Gold.
But they don't apply the same logic to Adult pairs. My partner passed Juvenile freeskating looooong before there was Pre-Juv, but he doesn't get an option to skate Silver or Gold pairs. At Silver, you can't have passed higher than Pre-Juv, so he's forced to compete at Gold. I just hate inconsistency! :lol:

nerd_on_ice

11-23-2004, 11:39 AM

2006 ANs in Dallas... I've never been to Texas, y'all!

Come on down! Great shopping & restaurants everywhere you turn; pathologically friendly people; abundance of skating rinks--what's not to like?

(okay, the traffic is bad and our liquor laws are rather peculiar, but other than that...) :lol:

flo

11-23-2004, 12:24 PM

The pairs had their own tests, and were as equally messed up when first presented. I started with a standard juv pair test, then took the adult bronze and silver tests. For one version of the rules I could have skated anything from silver pair to masters. Now I'm gold.

jenlyon60

11-23-2004, 04:48 PM

I have bad knees and I can do power pulls... :roll:

I started working on them again with my secondary coach and she gave me some good pointers that basically totally avoid any knee pain....

Oh, GAWD!!! Power pulls!!! There goes my knees!!! :cry:

Terri C - ITA on the @#$^% forward power 3's!!! And isn't it still subjective whether a move has "strength/flow" vs. "power"? Where do you draw the line on that?

Michigansk8er

11-23-2004, 05:17 PM

I realize the tests were different years ago. I passed the Preliminary test in 1979 when it was now what is Pre-pre. Still, it meant I couldn't compete at pre-bronze when I got back on the ice 20 years later. That being said, the logic doesn't follow through with the entire adult track. If it did, both Pre-Bronze and Bronze would be "no higher than Preliminary". In addition, we have adults stuck in Silver because they tested early on in the adult track.........and there was no Pre-Bronze. They took what is now the Bronze test, and got stuck at a level that allows axels. I'm assuming that means the original Gold test is what is now Silver???? Anyone know???

Typically the regular track tests have nothing to do with the elements a skater at that level competes and is capable of. I can't imagine a kid testing pre-juv these days without an axel............considering they can have an axel and up to 2 doubles in preliminary. Pre-juv seems logical for me, since not that many Silver adults have axels anyhow.........and we will shortly be facing skaters young skaters who have tested under the current structure. That could put a Juv skater who once did all of their doubles in either Silver or Gold. Of course, that could be true of a pre-juv skater too......since there are several where I skate that have doubles through lutz.

No way it's going to be fair across the board. There are just too many variables. Still, I do think Silver should be changed to pre-juv. It definitely seems like an oversight to me, but who knows.

Michigansk8er

11-23-2004, 05:20 PM

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh! I was just getting the slide chasse pattern down pat, and I hate power pulls! There's no way I will be ready to do the silver test by summer, so I might as well pull the slide chasse out of rotation now.

Don't do it yet. You never know how the cards will fall at GC. I'm not dropping that novice move until after the vote, even though I'd love to.

Terri C

11-23-2004, 06:50 PM

Don't do it yet. You never know how the cards will fall at GC. I'm not dropping that novice move until after the vote, even though I'd love to.

I told my coach about this today and she practically said the same thing!
Remember what happened to the 12/4 proposal!

NCSkater02

11-23-2004, 07:02 PM

If you only want to compete at Pre-Bronze level in your Sectionals comp. next year, there's no reason to take the test any earlier than September. :) Local competitions usually allow you to skate at Pre-Bronze with no test at all!

That's what I did this year--and I am definately a Pre-Bronze skater. If I ever master a spin (ha!) I might actually progress.

However, since there isn't any moves ice time at my rinks until after the first of the year, I won't even work on them until then. The next test session is in April....Hmmm....maybe it's the weekend hubby and I are going to Cancun and I can put it off even longer.

jazzpants

11-24-2004, 12:37 AM

I have bad knees and I can do power pulls... :roll:

I started working on them again with my secondary coach and she gave me some good pointers that basically totally avoid any knee pain....BRAVE WOMAN!!! :lol:

Seriously, I was trying to do them in my program at Skate SF but they were "wimpy, wimpy, wimpy..." :P

jenlyon60

11-24-2004, 07:16 AM

mikawendy

11-24-2004, 10:25 AM

Weight on the back half of the blades and think about keeping upper body still and think about scooping forwards. . . .backwards are even easier.

My secondary coach says I need to do twice as many on the weaker side to make it stronger... my goal is the entire length of the ice any direction any foot.

My long term goal is to be able to start with a single stroke and pick up speed... not just 4 or 5 strokes into a running start.

Another pointer I've gotten from edge class instructors is that the skating leg pushes on the second half of each lobe. It's kinda hard to explain, but the knee action on the second half of each lobe helps maintain or increase the power. (I have yet to be able to apply this going forwards or to do it well on my weak leg going backwards!)

daisies

11-24-2004, 04:31 PM

Still, I do think Silver should be changed to pre-juv. It definitely seems like an oversight to me, but who knows.

I think someone said this already, but just in case .... 1) These are just the maximum restrictions; it doesn't preclude a skater from having to pass the Silver and/or Gold FS test in order to compete at the respective levels. The rule as written doesn't allow someone to enter either/or ... if the skater has passed the Silver and no higher, he/she skates Silver; if the skater has passed the Gold and no higher, he/she skates Gold. The juvenile restriction is just that -- a restriction, not a requirement. 2) I believe it's juvenile and not pre-juvenile because the pre-juvenile FS test is a relatively new test. Back in the '80s, anyway, there was no such thing. So a skater coming back as an adult probably wouldn't have passed, much less heard of, the pre-juvenile FS test, and as such that leaves a gap in the restrictions.

Hope that made sense!

Hannahclear

11-24-2004, 05:08 PM

Ok, I have a question.

I passed pre-pre MITF and freestyle back in 97. With this rule change, does that mean I could start with the Bronze Adult test?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

Nevermind, answered my own question. I DO have to take it. :lol:

Michigansk8er

11-24-2004, 05:29 PM

2) I believe it's juvenile and not pre-juvenile because the pre-juvenile FS test is a relatively new test. Back in the '80s, anyway, there was no such thing. So a skater coming back as an adult probably wouldn't have passed, much less heard of, the pre-juvenile FS test, and as such that leaves a gap in the restrictions.

Hope that made sense!

I get it....since I was in the group that that took preliminary when there was no such thing as pre-preliminary. I just think it needs to be revised now that there is a pre-juv category. It won't matter to me, since I'm Class III, but I can see it making a difference in Class I.

doubletoe

11-25-2004, 01:15 AM

double toe - My main problem with moves is not the skills, but remembering the patterns. I meant that I actually liked the gold element that's going to be removed - the pattern was easy to remember. I get the patterns of the three turns confused!

Flo- I hear ya. :) But it takes me so long to get my MIF to passing level that it gives me plenty of time to get the pattern down, LOL!

doubletoe

11-25-2004, 01:28 AM

[QUOTE=jenlyon60]Weight on the back half of the blades and think about keeping upper body still and think about scooping forwards. . . .backwards are even easier./QUOTE]

A few more pointers on power pulls:

Forward: I use both knees to "drive". The knee of my free leg pushes against the knee of my skating leg and helps me do the change of edge. Then the skating knee pushes back for the next change of edge.

Forward and Backward: Do them with both feet side by side on the ice and see how much push you can get and how deep you can get the edges. Then move on to the 1-foot version.

Forward and Backward: You should feel your weight in the middle of the flat of the blade, right under the arch of your foot.

Forward and Backward: It really helps to think, "Inside edge. Outside edge. Inside edge. Outside edge" as you do these. If you can just consciously press against the ice with the inside edge, then consciously press against the ice with the outside edge, you'll scoot along and have less wasted energy. Picture a straight line, and imagine you are weaving your foot from the left side of the line to the right side of the line, and back over to left side. All movement takes place from the knee down.

techskater

11-25-2004, 09:40 AM

Michigansk8er

11-25-2004, 11:19 AM

The original Adult Gold FS test was HARDER than it currently is in that it was like the Intermediate - had to do a double jump and an Axel. A lot of people were getting bogged down there and the test was made easier by just having to do an Axel. This according to my coach who's had adults since the beginning, anyway

Yikes! That was a huge jump from what I've been told the original Bronze and Silver tests were. Sounds like the Gold moves are more in line with the old test, than the current one, even though they were put in place with the current test. Seems they didn't learn from the early mistakes with the freestyle tests.

vesperholly

11-25-2004, 12:51 PM

I can't imagine a kid testing pre-juv these days without an axel............considering they can have an axel and up to 2 doubles in preliminary.
There are many skaters who test just to test, and not to be competitive. I know plenty of kids who passed Pre-Juv without having an axel first - and many without having very good camel spins either. :roll: It's about what's on the test, not what is expected in competition.

skaternum

11-25-2004, 06:41 PM

jenlyon60

11-25-2004, 06:55 PM

I'm of 2 minds about it...

half of me (the half that struggled with getting a good checked 3) thinks the Alternating 3's were a bit much at Pre-Bronze...

the other half thinks "to do Salchow, toeloop & flip well (well, the latter 2 with a 3-turn entry), one has to be able to properly check the 3-turn.

And I've seen many an adult dancer be able to do well-checked 3-turns. Adult dancers who started dancing as adults.

vesperholly

11-25-2004, 07:19 PM

He thinks adults can stay fit and strong, and should test the same stuff as standard track.
There's no age limit on the standard track. Anyone can test it if they want to, and many adults do. I don't understand why there shouldn't be options. Different solutions for different needs.

NoVa Sk8r

11-25-2004, 07:39 PM

jazzpants

11-25-2004, 07:46 PM

Over on the rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational newsgroup, there's a discussion about the changes. A few people have said they think removing the 3s from pre-bronze is essentially dumbing it down and stupid. The main opponent and I disagree on this. I think the adult tests should be designed to accomodate aging adult bodies. He thinks adults can stay fit and strong, and should test the same stuff as standard track. (I don't see what's so politically incorrect in acknowledging that we change and lose strength as we grow older. That's the point of the adult track, imo.) Just wondering what you guys think. Those few folks are the only I've heard complaining about "dumbing down."As one of the replies to our Mrs. Redboots on that same thread...the devil is in the "passing standards." (Or what I think she's trying to say is in what's considered to be "passing standards.") This, of course, is not always clearly defined. So most coaches assume the judges fall back on what they've always learn is the passing standard -- whatever the kids do, the adults do too.

I guess my opinion is that...it's complicated!!! And that particular individual who thinks it's considered to be dumbing down -- I doubt he's seeing the whole picture! But that's just me...

And while we're at it... how many judges out there are honoring the allowance of "optional to have short two-foot prior to stepping forward" or "cross-over before stepping forward is optional" on the existing alt-3's move? (Read the Adult MIF Comparison Chart: http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf) Are the new proposed two moves any easier than even the watered down one alt 3's move given those two allowances?

Just food for thought...

Michigansk8er

11-25-2004, 08:11 PM

It's about what's on the test, not what is expected in competition.

True, and the Pre-Juv test is essentially the Silver test........which is why a few of us think it should eventually be changed.

Terri C

11-25-2004, 10:02 PM

I agree with skaternum.

But here is what a friend told me when we were discussing adult vs. standard track. I harshly disagree, but I thought I'd post it to add more fuel to the fire:

You either are skating because it's fun and you want to be the
best at it - or you can just get passed up through the ranks and, if it
isn't hard to pass or difficult to do and you merely want to be as good as
you have to be to get through the minimal requirements without having to
work for them - then, what's the point? Then everyone could do it. The
hard is what makes it great, right?

So, quit whining and just do what you have to do to achieve what you want to achieve.

Adults are supposed to be judged easier? Do you really want that? What
does that say for your skating? How far can it go - an axel will become a
waltz jump? Half jumps counted as full jumps?

Say what you want, but in my shallow and uninformed opinion - the sport is
the sport, elements are elements, and they shouldn't be watered down for
people based on age. They don't do it for the kids. If there was a 5-year-old skating at the intermediate level, they wouldn't be tested at a lower
standard simply because they are younger. Why should adults be treated any differently? And, as long as Adult skaters expect - and are expected - to get away with less stringent execution of elements - they will continue to
remain the bas|ards at the family reunion of skating.

While I get the point here, I have to share a true story of what I witnessed while preparing for the Pre Bronze MIF ( for those that don't know the full story my coach would not allow me to grandfather the adult moves)

This was a exchange on the ice with my coach while I was watching a 8 year old girl doing the Alternating three's

Me: "Jill, her alternating threes make me cry!"
Jill: "Terri, you have something that X skater doesn't- the hips!"

And that is the reason that we have a exception in the rules. On the other side of the coin, one of the kids I skate with is off the ice with a stress fracture in her back. Makes me wonder if there should be more limits on what the kids can do element wise, since so many kids are getting hurt!

Mrs Redboots

11-26-2004, 09:17 AM

You guys are just lucky to have an adult test track at all - we don't! You take the standard tests, whether you are 54 (like my husband, who is testing his Level 3 Dance Moves on Tuesday, we hope - and he's not the oldest skater I've seen take AND pass that test!), or 15!

Okay, some of the judges are slightly more lenient to the adults, but I hear horror stories of those who aren't....

vesperholly

11-26-2004, 01:53 PM

True, and the Pre-Juv test is essentially the Silver test........which is why a few of us think it should eventually be changed.
The Pre-Juvenile tests were added in 1994 along with Pre-Prelimliminary tests and Moves. There are many, many adults who started skating long before that. Eventually, yes it probably will be changed. But until then, I don't see the harm of letting skaters who have passed Juvenile choose Silver or Gold. :giveup:

Debbie S

11-26-2004, 02:38 PM

To answer jazzpants's question - no, the judges don't! In fact, no one has really told the judges that there are "adult standards". Rant: I find the whole thing ridiculous - the adult committee of the USFSA comes up with guidelines, and they never get officially required of judges or shown to anyone unless a judge or test chair goes out of their way. In any case, my understanding is that it was/is optional for judges to follow them.

But to get to the subject of alt 3's: the Pre-Bronze test is supposed to be the equivalent of the Pre-prelim test in that it's an encouragement test - it's supposed to measure basic skills of skating. Alt 3's are not basic - that's why they're on the Prelim MIF test and not Pre-pre. Removing the 3's does not mean that the Pre-Bronze test is dumbed down - does everyone remember learning BI edges? What is does do is make the test appropriate for a beginning level adult skater.

Originally, I know the plan was to move the alt 3's to the Bronze test. I assume that another issue that came up in USFSA meetings was the adult body/strength/flexibility issue that skaternum and Terri mentioned. The fact is, doing those 3's on that pattern requires a lot of turnout as well as quick twisting/transition of the body. Unless adults come to skating having done dance or gymnastics as children, that movement and turnout is very hard to achieve. Why discourage people from an adult sport b/c they can't do what 5-year-olds can? That's not to say that adults can't achieve great turnout or pass all the standard track moves tests, but as vesperholly said, different people have different wants/needs. The adult track shouldn't force people to meet standard track skill levels if that's not someone's goal (by choice or necessity).

By the way, did everyone see the new 3-turn pattern that will be required on the Pre-Bronze test (follow the link to the USFSA report and there's a link in the Pre-Bronze moves listing that shows a diagram). Obviously, there is recognition of the need to learn 3-turn checking - both this pattern and the waltz 8 will accomplish that. I think the key here is that the moves needed to teach adults certain skills are not necessarily (and don't need to be) the same moves that teach the kids those skills, for a variety of reasons.

icedancer2

11-26-2004, 04:22 PM

To answer jazzpants's question - no, the judges don't! In fact, no one has really told the judges that there are "adult standards". Rant: I find the whole thing ridiculous - the adult committee of the USFSA comes up with guidelines, and they never get officially required of judges or shown to anyone unless a judge or test chair goes out of their way. In any case, my understanding is that it was/is optional for judges to follow them.

Yes I have noticed this, too (Rant, Rant) -- I even spoke with one of the judges prior to a friend's taking of this test -- I knew that she put her foot down on her alternating 3s and pointed out to the judge beforehand that very place in that outline where the adult standards were written (I tried to head her off at the pass, so to speak...). The judge just looked at me like I was a nutcase, turned out she single-paneled my friend's test, my friend put her foot down and VIOLA -- flunked the test.

ARRRRGGGHHH!!

2nd RANT -- I did figures as a kid and those alt 3s are NOTHING like the 3s to center on the 1st figure test -- the check and turn are so much quicker -- anyway, this will most likely be a moot point since they are going to get rid of them at least for adults, but IMHO no one should have to do this move, at least not doing them on an actual LOBE (another rant, which I won't go into).

By the way, did everyone see the new 3-turn pattern that will be required on the Pre-Bronze test (follow the link to the USFSA report and there's a link in the Pre-Bronze moves listing that shows a diagram). Obviously, there is recognition of the need to learn 3-turn checking - both this pattern and the waltz 8 will accomplish that. I think the key here is that the moves needed to teach adults certain skills are not necessarily (and don't need to be) the same moves that teach the kids those skills, for a variety of reasons.

Thanks for directing us to this -- I like this move. Maybe I will start working on it. It seems a good lead-up to power-threes, with the turn forward, etc. I'm glad they are considering the adult skater more just in general. We are not just grown up little kids! (We're not??) :bow:

Michigansk8er

11-26-2004, 04:32 PM

fadedstardust

11-27-2004, 12:28 AM

Well, I think the alt threes should have been moved to the Bronze test because they are definitely too hard for pre-bronze IMO, but I don't see the argument that adults would have a harder time to learn them than kids. For some moves yes definitely, but not this one. Adults have more control over their bodies and awareness of it than kids. Kids struggle to learn it cause they throw themselves into the move, and the control takes a long time. Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging. And yeah they require quickness and twisting, but so do many other patterns on tests so unless you take them all out there's no point in completely removing the most basic one. I think if this gets passed that it will be a great loss to adult skating, this move is so important to master. So what if it takes a long time? I totally understand about limited funds and ice time, but even if you get rid of one move, the other ones will take just as long (if not longer, because learning the back three pattern without mastering the forward one first will be a nightmare for most). It's one of those sports that takes a long time, most kids spend 10 years testing through the entire system, especially if they are competing. There are way fewer adult tests, I don't think it's wrong to expect people to spend a long time on each, otherwise what is the point of the test structure, if when there is a conscensus that a certain move is too hard, it is removed? Many adults of all ages and fitness levels have already passed it, so clearly it is more than doable. I do agree fully that it should be moved to a higher test, but I don't think it should be removed.

Just my unsolicited thoughts from the outside of the situation.

Mrs Redboots

11-27-2004, 05:07 AM

As I have said on the Usenet group - and been thoroughly jumped on, for my pains! - we don't have the Waltz 8 in this country, it's unknown, but we do have alternating 3s. And our alternating 3s are, dare I say it, harder than yours since we are required to do a whole lap of the ice - with runs or crossovers round the end - of FO3s. The FI3s do have a back crossover between them, but that doesn't actually make them easier, since every lobe has to be approximately the same size.

Now, I'm not saying I can do either move to passing standard - I certainly can't for this country - but I do find the alternating 3s a lot easier than the waltz 8, which I can't seem to get to grips with at all! And I have almost lost the toe-tap - my problem is that they are still far too small. And anyway, right now I'm not testing Field Moves, only Dance Moves.

Plus you are all dead lucky to have adult tests - we don't; you test the regular track or not at all, certainly for the first six levels.

Michigansk8er

11-27-2004, 08:23 AM

Plus you are all dead lucky to have adult tests - we don't; you test the regular track or not at all, certainly for the first six levels.

It might be less confusing if our system were that way too.

backspin

11-27-2004, 09:50 AM

I, too, wish they'd move the alt. 3's to bronze, not get rid of them altogether. They're too hard for a pre-bronze skater, but I do think they're valuable.

My personal opinion is that skaters (of all ages) struggle w/ these forever because many coaches don't know how to properly teach how to do them. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I've observed it a few times. And I will say it's not necessarily the coach's fault; many of the coaches have never actually done these moves themselves when they were testing.

My opinion: if you're struggling with these, find a really good ice dance coach & take some lessons with them on this move; they can give you exercises to do which will teach your body how to check the turn & strengthen the muscles needed for the control. Many freestyle coaches just don't have the knowledge of the ga--ZILLION exercises we dancers are given to learn the edge & turn control that we need!

techskater

11-27-2004, 01:53 PM

Your other choice is to find a coach who has done and taught figures. Our coach will make you learn the 3's to center if you are having issues with the alternating threes. If you can do 3's to center, even not to figure passing standard, but at least can DO them, you'll find the alternating threes much easier.

doubletoe

11-27-2004, 04:26 PM

[QUOTE=fadedstardust]Well, I think the alt threes should have been moved to the Bronze test because they are definitely too hard for pre-bronze IMO, but I don't see the argument that adults would have a harder time to learn them than kids. For some moves yes definitely, but not this one. Adults have more control over their bodies and awareness of it than kids. Kids struggle to learn it cause they throw themselves into the move, and the control takes a long time. Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging. And yeah they require quickness and twisting, but so do many other patterns on tests so unless you take them all out there's no point in completely removing the most basic one. . . . There are way fewer adult tests, I don't think it's wrong to expect people to spend a long time on each, otherwise what is the point of the test structure, if when there is a conscensus that a certain move is too hard, it is removed? QUOTE]

I agree that kids have no big advantage over adults when it comes to MIF, other than flexibility, i.e., the spirals. So I don't really know why adults have to be judged more leniently, and why we adults are no longer expected to have "power" in our stroking. (Huh? Are our muscles weaker than the kids'? I don't think so.) But I do believe in having appropriate MIF for the level of the skater, and I think the new MIF changes will bring us closer to that.

Debbie S

11-27-2004, 04:27 PM

Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging.

Uh, in the choctaw turn in the transition at the line with the FO 3's? It doesn't matter where your free foot is or how close it is to your body. You still have to step from a BI edge to a FO edge on your other foot, which requires your free hip to face outward while your skating foot is still on a BI edge until you step forward.

Another interesting thing to ponder is the Pre-Bronze FS test. I think that definitely ought to be reevaluated. Obviously, the test was developed before the adult moves tests and I assume the goal was to have adults demonstrate some form of MIF skill by requiring the crossovers. But now that we have adult moves requirements (and it looks like the crossover pattern is staying on the Pre-Bronze test), I really think the FS test should mirror the Pre-Prelim FS test. Not that I'm complaining, but when I tested, I thought it was a bit silly to be doing a harder crossover pattern in my moves test and an easier crossover pattern in my FS test a half hour later, in front of the same judges who'd already passed me on the harder one.

vesperholly

11-27-2004, 06:54 PM

I agree that kids have no big advantage over adults when it comes to MIF, other than flexibility, i.e., the spirals. So I don't really know why adults have to be judged more leniently, and why we adults are no longer expected to have "power" in our stroking. (Huh? Are our muscles weaker than the kids'? I don't think so.) But I do believe in having appropriate MIF for the level of the skater, and I think the new MIF changes will bring us closer to that.
I know of a big advantage - time. What adult do you know that can train for 12+ hours like these kids can? Kids go to school, skate and do homework. No job, no family to pay for and take care of, no house to pay for and take care of.

My coach constantly has to remind me of this when I get frustrated with my lack of progress. When you can only skate for 3-5 hours a week, and many adults less than that, it's unrealistic to expect them to reach kids' standards. This is why there were adults fighting moves being mandatory as well. There are adults who want to reach those standards, and more power to them. :bow: But many adults simply cannot, and it's unfair to expect them to abide by the same rules in an unlevel playing field.

Terri C

11-27-2004, 07:01 PM

jazzpants

11-27-2004, 07:36 PM

I have to agree with Vesper here. I've finally faced the fact that in order to get the Bronze MIF and FS passed, I'll have to take a break from competition for awhile. So, after the New Year's Invitational ( CRC might be a crapshoot for me) I'll be doing just that!I've (unintentially) done just that too! With the exception of Skate SF, I've been working on that #$@% Bronze Moves like... FOREVER!!! (About 2.5 years...) And of course, with my injuries back in March and now my lost purple skates and all... :frus:

The worst part is that I was VERY, VERY close to taking the darn test and passing with each incident (and of course, there was my failed attempt in August.) The Skating Gods up there seems to NOT want me to pass Bronze Moves and FS and go to AN for some reason... :(

If there are any advantages, my skating is much faster this year than last year... and I'm "looked" lot more confident this year on the ice compared to last year.

fadedstardust

11-27-2004, 10:57 PM

I know of a big advantage - time. What adult do you know that can train for 12+ hours like these kids can? Kids go to school, skate and do homework. No job, no family to pay for and take care of, no house to pay for and take care of.

My coach constantly has to remind me of this when I get frustrated with my lack of progress. When you can only skate for 3-5 hours a week, and many adults less than that, it's unrealistic to expect them to reach kids' standards. This is why there were adults fighting moves being mandatory as well. There are adults who want to reach those standards, and more power to them. :bow: But many adults simply cannot, and it's unfair to expect them to abide by the same rules in an unlevel playing field.

But that's not really true about the time thing- because kids have more than twice as many tests to pass as you guys do, so it more than equals out. It's not like you have to pass a certain test by a certain time, you can take your time at it. This is (as I'm sure you know) a very difficult and involved sport, and if you don't have that much time to devote to it then that's understandable but then you will just progress slower- that doesn't mean important moves should be taken off because they take "too long" to pass. It's not like you HAVE to test to skate, you just have to test to compete, and if your moves aren't good enough because you don't have time to practice then it's probably better off that you wait until you've had the time to progress, however long that takes, before you do compete. The time spent on choreographing a program could be spent on moves- I know it's not as fun but the fact of the matter is that they should be learned first, especially the basic ones. Just like everything in life, this sport takes a lot of annoying and mind numbing "beginner" work before you can get to the fun stuff. I don't see why that should be different for adults, surely they are the first to understand the laws of learning something new.

Meanwhile I know plenty of adults who are retired (some who have even quit their jobs) to do skating full time, and it's not fair that they don't have anything challenging to work on anymore in the adult track because the entire track was lowered and watered-down to accomodate people who can't devote enough time to it. It's the same with the kids- some kids can't AFFORD daily practice, some only do it weekly, and they'll progress slower. But they don't get to skip stuff because of that fact. As long as adults are capable of passing these, I don't think the time issue should really be a reason to drop them.

PattyP

11-27-2004, 11:28 PM

Life will be much easier for the Golds now w/out that Novice move .

Yeah, which ticks me off because of the time and $$$ I spent to learn this move in order to pass my test...not to mention the bruises from getting my feet tangled and crashing while practicing it. It took me over a year to learn it. :frus: Oh well, I'm sure I'm a better skater because of it... :roll:

NoVa Sk8r

11-28-2004, 12:37 AM

Yes, Patty, I'm sure the move was well worth the time and bruises.
I told my coach (I finally saw her after a 5-week hiatus!) about this proposed change in the moves, and she said, "Well, if that passes, it'll go into effect next September; we'll probably have you take your gold moves by then." 8O
Yet another reason why I believe my coach takes crack. 8-)
[And so what was the FIRST thing my coach had me work on? The bracket pattern for gold moves. Ugh.]

Um, how long did it take me to hunker down and finally commit to and pass my silver moves (at least 15 months?)--and the only impetus there was to be able to skate adult pairs (the old rules stated that both partners had to be at least silver level); the rules changed so that I could be a lower level than my partner. That said, it was well worth the time and effort (need I mention frustration?).

But please, please, please, Governing Council, banish that Novice pattern in Gold MIF. I'll be eternally grateful. :D

skaternum

11-28-2004, 09:13 AM

Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging. The turnout comes, as has already been pointed out, in the choctaw from the BI edge to the FO edge. I've seen a lot of adult skaters struggle and struggle with this. If you're 40 years old and your hips are turned in, all the time in the world isn't going to dramatically increase your turnout.
And yeah they require quickness and twisting, but so do many other patterns on tests so unless you take them all out there's no point in completely removing the most basic one.Creating tests to accomodate adults means you have to be understanding of some of the physical limitations, like bad knees and bad backs. Twisting can be really hard on older adults.

There are way fewer adult tests, I don't think it's wrong to expect people to spend a long time on each, otherwise what is the point of the test structure, if when there is a conscensus that a certain move is too hard, it is removed?There are a couple of ways to look at this. First of all, this is a very part time hobby for us adult skaters. We do it for fun. If you make it too difficult for the majority of us, it becomes frustrating. In our busy grownup lives, we have to set priorities. The really frustrating hobby inevitably falls to the side. So what have we accomplished? We have a small group of uberskaters left in the sport, and the frustrated skaters leave the sport. How is that promoting figure skating? Which leads to the more crass way to look at it: the skating community is a constituency of USFSA that needs to be kept reasonably happy. Adult skaters do a huge amount of work at the local club level. If a lot of adults in my area got frustrated and left the sport, my club would be S.O.L. We fill positions as test chair, hospitality chair, vice-president, treasurer, board member, and are a major source of volunteer labor.

I really believe that the adult track should be adult-friendly. That's why there IS an adult track. That's what it was started for -- acknowledgement of the fact that we're not just overgrown kids. And these are *minimum* standards. Skaters 25 and older always have the option of taking the standard track tests, and any skater always has the option of exceeding the test standard!

skaternum

11-28-2004, 09:24 AM

But that's not really true about the time thing- because kids have more than twice as many tests to pass as you guys do, so it more than equals out.To achieve the same skill level, kids do NOT have to take twice as many tests as we do.

It's not like you have to pass a certain test by a certain time, you can take your time at it. Good Lord! I'm 40 and I take Vioxx. I could die any day now! I have to hurry. :lol:

This is (as I'm sure you know) a very difficult and involved sport, and if you don't have that much time to devote to it then that's understandable but then you will just progress slower- that doesn't mean important moves should be taken off because they take "too long" to pass. It's not like you HAVE to test to skate, you just have to test to compete, and if your moves aren't good enough because you don't have time to practice then it's probably better off that you wait until you've had the time to progress, however long that takes, before you do compete. The time spent on choreographing a program could be spent on moves- I know it's not as fun but the fact of the matter is that they should be learned first, especially the basic ones. Just like everything in life, this sport takes a lot of annoying and mind numbing "beginner" work before you can get to the fun stuff. I don't see why that should be different for adults, surely they are the first to understand the laws of learning something new.
It's all about balance. We want to be the best skaters we can be. We want to have fun with our hobby. We have some physical and time limitations that kids don't have. So we try to strike a balance among those 3 things. Demanding that we meet the same standards as kids tips that scale too far to one side, in my opinion. We want tests that are challenging but not too difficult; we want to have fun competing (why not?). If removing those 3s keeps 5 more adults skating, it's worth it.

And my favorite tongue-in-cheek argument of all: because I'm a grownup and I said so! :)

Debbie S

11-28-2004, 10:59 AM

Meanwhile I know plenty of adults who are retired (some who have even quit their jobs) to do skating full time, and it's not fair that they don't have anything challenging to work on anymore in the adult track because the entire track was lowered and watered-down to accomodate people who can't devote enough time to it.

I'm starting to get offended.

That's great that some adults can afford to retire or quit their jobs and devote so much time to their hobby, be it skating, golf, or whatever. But the majority don't (when you become an adult, you'll understand more about this). As for whether adults can have "challenging" things to work on, it has has already been pointed out that any adult can take standard track MIF and FS tests and have competitive opportunities at any level, up through Senior FS (that would be Masters). And I'm sure you're also aware that there are plenty of skills to work on that aren't specifically covered in a test - do you need to be tested on something to want to work on it and put it in a program, or just master it for the sake of learning?

Terri C

11-28-2004, 11:54 AM

NoVa Sk8r

11-28-2004, 11:55 AM

Good Lord! I'm 40 and I take Vioxx. I could die any day now! I have to hurry. :lol:

Yikes--switch to Celebrex already! 8O That should be safe until the FDA says otherwise. :roll:

Well, I'm 29 and am practically on an ibuprofen drip.

Back to the topic at hand.
While I don't mind having MIF standards as part of the adult track, I DO want to at least know that I have a reasonable chance of practicing and passing these moves. After sulking over the silver moves, I had the chance to talk to a judge. I was explaining how forlorn I was becoming over these moves and that I would never be able to perfect them. She said, "Well, we don't expect them to be perfect, just reasonably performed." Why was she never on my judging panel?! :)

Ok, so some people posting say that the adult track is being watered down (I disagree). But is there anyone who has already passed the adult levels and is working on the adult moves? I know a few who are in gold, and after seeing what is in gold MIF, they have decided to practice the gold moves just to be in the swing of things.

vesperholly

11-28-2004, 12:30 PM

Fadedstardust wrote:
>>But that's not really true about the time thing- because kids have more than twice as many tests to pass as you guys do, so it more than equals out.<<

As skaternum pointed out, to achieve the same skill level, there are the same amount of tests. Gold skills = Juvenile. 8 tests (4 MIF/4 FS) to get there for both adult and standard track.

>>It's not like you have to pass a certain test by a certain time, you can take your time at it.<<

Not if you want to compete in qualifying competitions or at Adult Nationals, where you have to pass the right test by Jan 15. The same is true for kids as well - when do they need to pass a certain test by a certain time, other than for qualifying competitions pass by Sept 1?

>>This is (as I'm sure you know) a very difficult and involved sport, and if you don't have that much time to devote to it then that's understandable but then you will just progress slower<<

I agree.

>>that doesn't mean important moves should be taken off because they take "too long" to pass.<<

Well, it's not like we're talking about abolishing the moves, just placing them at their proper level. Adults will encounter most of the Gold test if they continue beyond Gold to take Intermediate and Novice moves. Removing that Novice pattern only means that the skaters need to build more of a skill level before doing that pattern.

>>Meanwhile I know plenty of adults who are retired (some who have even quit their jobs) to do skating full time, and it's not fair that they don't have anything challenging to work on anymore in the adult track because the entire track was lowered and watered-down to accomodate people who can't devote enough time to it.<<

Excuse me, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Would that I could quit my job and skate full-time! I think this form of lucky adult is few and far between - and why should we make skating only available to the privledged? Who cares if they don't have anything to work on in the adult track, that's what Masters is for. No one is preventing adults from testing the standard track. The adult track is there expressly FOR those adults who can't devote as much time and energy to it as they'd like, because Life gets in the way.

>>It's the same with the kids- some kids can't AFFORD daily practice, some only do it weekly, and they'll progress slower. But they don't get to skip stuff because of that fact. As long as adults are capable of passing these, I don't think the time issue should really be a reason to drop them.<<

No one is saying that adult moves tests should be banished or ignored. I think the majority opinion here is that they are beneficial and should be kept. The discussions have been about the appropriateness of Move A on Test B, and wouldn't it be more appropriate on Test A, etc.

I truly think you need to skate a mile in someone else's skates to understand this.

dbny

11-28-2004, 12:55 PM

The turnout comes, as has already been pointed out, in the choctaw from the BI edge to the FO edge. I've seen a lot of adult skaters struggle and struggle with this. If you're 40 years old and your hips are turned in, all the time in the world isn't going to dramatically increase your turnout.

I agree with everything skaternum has said except this. I have so little turn out that I actually have turn in and have been considering working on a "pigeon eagle". I have no problem at all with this Choctaw. I have seen lots of kids turn half of a BO three on when stepping forward, and off ice, I do feel the pressure in my knees. On ice, however, I think it must be a matter of compensating with upper body rotation and fast movement of the hips like in a FI Mohawk.

What I see as the major problem with the alt threes is the check on the FO pattern, and control of the BI edge to the line. I've seen many kids learn this move and be able to get back to the line and step forward without putting their free foot down in one lesson (not to passing standard, just be able to do it). Adults seem to struggle forever on this. I even know one adult who passed Prelim moves a few years ago, who now finds that she is putting her foot down again.

Anyway, I'm one who has chosen to stick with the standard track because I will never compete and would love to teach moves. Don't know if I will ever pass Prelim with those spirals, as I'm 57 and also just about on an ibuprofen drip like NoVa Sk8r. The inclusion of the alt three patterns in adult Pre-Bronze was one of the things that helped me decide to stay with the standard track.

jazzpants

11-28-2004, 01:29 PM

Yikes--switch to Celebrex already! 8O That should be safe until the FDA says otherwise. :roll:

Well, I'm 29 and am practically on an ibuprofen drip.

Back to the topic at hand.
While I don't mind having MIF standards as part of the adult track, I DO want to at least know that I have a reasonable chance of practicing and passing these moves. After sulking over the silver moves, I had the chance to talk to a judge. I was explaining how forlorn I was becoming over these moves and that I would never be able to perfect them. She said, "Well, we don't expect them to be perfect, just reasonably performed." Why was she never on my judging panel?! :)

Ok, so some people posting say that the adult track is being watered down (I disagree). But is there anyone who has already passed the adult levels and is working on the adult moves? I know a few who are in gold, and after seeing what is in gold MIF, they have decided to practice the gold moves just to be in the swing of things.Celebrex is not great for people with sensitive stomaches, I read... You guys never heard of Vitamin M(otrin?) :P I usually try to take care of aches and pains by stretching afterwards and taking a LOOOONG hot shower or soak in the jacuzzi. Nothing like heat to relieve tightness in muscles!!!

The alt 3's are not that bad on the FO3's for me and I don't have much turnout...(couldn't barely do inside spread eagles...) It's the FI3's that I have trouble with!!! :frus::P As far as the choctaw from the BI edge and stepping to the FO3's I've found the only way I got myself to do it is to really bend the knee that is holding the BI edge (while keeping my back straight) and keep the foot close and in a T position. However, as skaternum says, it's not that easy... and unfortunately I still have to practice this a LOT in order to get the power 3's. (It's one of my major "issues" with Bronze Moves in fact!)

So... mixed blessing for me... if I ever pass Bronze Moves, you'll know that I probably got it eventually... :P

skaternum

11-28-2004, 01:42 PM

Celebrex is not great for people with sensitive stomaches, I read... You guys never heard of Vitamin M(otrin?) :P I usually try to take care of aches and pains by stretching afterwards and taking a LOOOONG hot shower or soak in the jacuzzi. Nothing like heat to relieve tightness in muscles!!!
If it were only that simple. To control my long term back problems, I need serious anti-inflammatories. Ibuprofen was ripping my stomach out, as was naproxen. Both Vioxx and Celebrex worked okay without bothering my stomach, but now Vioxx is off the market. My doctor gave me a prescription for Bextra. Bextra, Celebrex, and Vioxx are all Cox-2 inhibitors, and Swami Skaternum predicts that eventually the whole class of drugs will be pulled. If one causes heart attacks, it's a pretty safe bet that the others will too. So that leaves me ... back with no good anti-inflammatory. Hot baths are helpful for minor aches & pains, but if I go a couple of days without my drugs, the tightening starts and within a few more days, I'm in trouble! It's fun being old! :P

Terri C

11-28-2004, 02:47 PM

Okay everyone, please repeat after me:

This is only a proposal
This is only a proposal
This is only a proposal

Remember this is only a proposal and may or may not make it to GC- even then it may not pass- remember what happened to the 12/4 proposal!

starskate6.0

11-28-2004, 03:03 PM

Nova

I think you have the power and age on your side to do the gold moves as they stand for now. Just think what it will do for you in general skating skills. I promise you it will give you a great sence of accomplishment when you pass it and you will be able to start working on the gold Free. Your a stong skater. I had to start at pre-bronze and move through all the test to get to gold. I never competed or did any test as a kid but I have to admit that 6 years as a chorus skater helps one to accomplish these test much faster.

Some of the silver moves where a real challange and the Novice moves in gold will keep you busy, I think the changes for the adults will be welcomed by most. Change is what its all about. go for it man

Does anyone know if there is a test requirement for masters 8O ?
I can't find this ? Im not even close to that level but Id sure like to know whats required ??

"The greatest risk in life is not takeing one "

skaternum

11-28-2004, 04:07 PM

Does anyone know if there is a test requirement for masters 8O ?
I can't find this ? Im not even close to that level but Id sure like to know whats required ??
By definition, the tests for masters are the standard track freeskating tests -- from Intermediate through Senior. If you don't have a rule book handy, you can look at the announcement for Adult Nationals. That's a useful, concise place to find info like that. It's on the USFSA website.

jazzpants

11-28-2004, 04:26 PM

If it were only that simple. To control my long term back problems, I need serious anti-inflammatories. Ibuprofen was ripping my stomach out, as was naproxen. Both Vioxx and Celebrex worked okay without bothering my stomach, but now Vioxx is off the market. My doctor gave me a prescription for Bextra. Bextra, Celebrex, and Vioxx are all Cox-2 inhibitors, and Swami Skaternum predicts that eventually the whole class of drugs will be pulled. If one causes heart attacks, it's a pretty safe bet that the others will too. So that leaves me ... back with no good anti-inflammatory. Hot baths are helpful for minor aches & pains, but if I go a couple of days without my drugs, the tightening starts and within a few more days, I'm in trouble! It's fun being old! :PMaybe I should also mention for my particular back problem, having a sit stand workstation and having monthly maintanance with my chiro seems to help. Oh, and for joints, my chiro suggested Glucosamine. (I've been taking Glucosamine Chronitron, but I was told now that the one I should take is the Glucosamine Sulfate... Weird!!! (NoVa -- you're the chemist geek... you know anything about this?)

I took the one I'm not that much younger than you, skaternum and being old DOES sucks!!! :evil: I have the incentive now to work extra hard on those moves, b/c 1) it helps me to do more difficult footwork in my program, 2) it helps my edges so it would make going into my jumps just a tad easier.. and 3) if I get too old for jumps, I sure as hell want those edges to still be there so I could still continue on -- maybe switch over to ice dancing then?

starskate6.0

11-28-2004, 05:05 PM

Thanks for the info on the Masters.
I guess I can forget about that. :roll:

dbny

11-28-2004, 05:43 PM

Oh, and for joints, my chiro suggested Glucosamine. (I've been taking Glucosamine Chronitron, but I was told now that the one I should take is the Glucosamine Sulfate... Weird!!!

Hope you don't mind if I jump in with some info here. Studies have shown recently that glucosamine is the effective ingredient and that chondroitin is ineffective. I'm thrilled by that bit of info because I cannot tolerate chondroitin, but seem to be fine with just the glucosamine, although the 1500 mg tabs are huge 8O

NoVa Sk8r

11-28-2004, 06:22 PM

Oh, and for joints, my chiro suggested Glucosamine. (I've been taking Glucosamine Chronitron, but I was told now that the one I should take is the Glucosamine Sulfate... Weird!!! (NoVa -- you're the chemist geek... you know anything about this?)
You mean you've been taking a glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate mixture?

I've not heard anything negative about chondroitin. I have heard not to use glucosamine if you're allergic to shellfish (see below). Glucosamine may raise your blood insulin level if you have diabetes.

And here's more than you wanted to know:
Glucosamine, an amino sugar, promotes the formation and repair of cartilage and is an important building block of many glycosaminoglycans, which are molecules that form the matrix of cartilage. It is derived from chitin, a substance found in the exoskeletons of shellfish such as crabs. Glucosamine is mainly found in 2 forms (2 different counterions): glucosamine sulfate and glucosamine HCl.

Chondroitin attracts fluid into the cartilage. Without this fluid, cartilage would become malnourished, thinner and more fragile. In this way, chondroitin protects cartilage from breakdown and also stimulates the synthesis of new cartilage.

Some of the supplements also contain methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), an organic supply of sulfur (organic in the 'organic chemistry' sense, as opposed to the inorganic sense). MSM supplies sulfur to cartilage, which is necessary for its regeneration.

Most people I know take the glucosamine/chondroitin mixture. I'm not sure as to why your doc suggests otherwise. I only really know the chemistry, not the clinical/histological/pathological details.

Can anyone else provide details?

sk8er1964

11-28-2004, 06:58 PM

The Pre-Juvenile tests were added in 1994 along with Pre-Prelimliminary tests and Moves. There are many, many adults who started skating long before that. Eventually, yes it probably will be changed. But until then, I don't see the harm of letting skaters who have passed Juvenile choose Silver or Gold. :giveup:

I skated up to Juvenile in competition in the early 1980's. Never took the freestyle test, because I couldn't pass the second figure test. However, I had several fairly solid double jumps as a kid (sal, toe and loop). If I hadn't passed ISIA 6, I could have actually skated Bronze (because the only USFSA fs test I passed was the preliminary test), or have chosen Silver. I don't think the silvers would have been too thrilled to have someone like me skating in their ranks - with a very solid axel and working on doubles, even after many, many years off the ice.

I agree with Michigansk8er - pre-juv should be silver, and juv gold. It just makes sense.

sk8er1964

11-28-2004, 07:05 PM

fadedstardust

11-28-2004, 07:21 PM

I was only talking about the alt 3s, not the novice moves. I think the adult moves are badly planned and don't reflect a steady progress, as most people have said, they should be completely reviewed. I just think the alt 3 should be moved to Bronze, not removed. If Gold equals out to Juvenile in the regular track, then I don't see why you guys should have to take Int. or Novice moves unless you want to move on to the regular track, personally.

I never noticed the turnout issue of the choctaw in between the alt 3s, I remember HATING the alt 3s, but it's been a long time and I don't really remember too much about them other than my hatred for them and the fact that they taught me a lot about control in general. I guess, at the end of the day, that I hope that whatever is best for the Adult Skating Community gets approved, whatever motion that may be.

doubletoe

11-28-2004, 07:40 PM

Yeah, which ticks me off because of the time and $$$ I spent to learn this move in order to pass my test...not to mention the bruises from getting my feet tangled and crashing while practicing it. It took me over a year to learn it. :frus: Oh well, I'm sure I'm a better skater because of it... :roll:

Ugh! I know I'd certainly feel the same way if I'd had to learn that @!#$&* move! I may actually even be epxeriencing a little "survivor guilt" since I will probably not be testing Gold MIF until next October. :??

Maybe you should put those 3-turns from hell in a circular footwork sequence in your program so that you can make the judges go ooh and aah. Especially after next September when the new Gold skaters won't even be able to do it! :)

jazzpants

11-28-2004, 11:37 PM

You mean you've been taking a glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate mixture?

I've not heard anything negative about chondroitin. I have heard not to use glucosamine if you're allergic to shellfish (see below). Glucosamine may raise your blood insulin level if you have diabetes.

And here's more than you wanted to know:
Glucosamine, an amino sugar, promotes the formation and repair of cartilage and is an important building block of many glycosaminoglycans, which are molecules that form the matrix of cartilage. It is derived from chitin, a substance found in the exoskeletons of shellfish such as crabs. Glucosamine is mainly found in 2 forms (2 different counterions): glucosamine sulfate and glucosamine HCl.Okay, I got confused.

I think what I interpret from hubby was that the chiro says that you "should NOT take glucosamine HCl -- it's the wrong form." (Don't know what he meant that that... and certainly up until now hubby hasn't even heard of glucosamine pills outside of my shopping for them.)

I think he's okay with the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture -- it's the type of glucosamine itself he's particular about... (BTW: I personally also take the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture too.)

Mrs Redboots

11-29-2004, 04:49 AM

Maybe I should also mention for my particular back problem, having a sit stand workstation and having monthly maintanance with my chiro seems to help. Oh, and for joints, my chiro suggested Glucosamine. (I've been taking Glucosamine Chronitron, but I was told now that the one I should take is the Glucosamine Sulfate... Weird!!! (NoVa -- you're the chemist geek... you know anything about this?)I'm not NoVa, but my parents both have arthritis, and my cousin, who is a doctor, told them not to bother with the Chondroitin, but to take double the dose of plain Glucosamine. He said you actually need more than you think - twice the daily dose is what he recommends - and he also said that it works for about 4 people out of 5.

I take the regular amount of Glucosamine, as a preventive more than a cure (but I do notice if I don't take it!), and I also take cod-liver-oil capsules. I'm not sure which it is that works, but certainly one of them does!

Skaternum - I also recommend those wheat bags they sell. You can make your own easily enough, just put a pound of wheat (or brown rice, if you can't get, or are allergic to wheat) and a couple of tablespoons of lavender flowers into an appropriately-sized fabric bag, then heat in the microwave for 1.5 minutes, shake, and repeat. Wonderful.....

Incidentally, I'm 51 and my coach has decided he's not satisfied with the amount of turnout I'm getting.... sigh....

NoVa Sk8r

11-29-2004, 09:21 AM

Okay, I got confused.

I think what I interpret from hubby was that the chiro says that you "should NOT take glucosamine HCl -- it's the wrong form." (Don't know what he meant that that... and certainly up until now hubby hasn't even heard of glucosamine pills outside of my shopping for them.)

I think he's okay with the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture -- it's the type of glucosamine itself he's particular about... (BTW: I personally also take the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture too.)

OK, I have consulted with my trusty Merck Index (what else is there to do on a Monday after Thanksgiving?). The preferred form of glucosamine is the sulfate form. And looking at the molecular weight of chondroitin--~50,000, which is huge--you can see why it is NOT absorbed very well. In contrast, glucosamine (which, for my chemist friends out there, is just the aminated form of glucose) has a molecular weight of 179.

So, while chondroitin sulfate is the most abundant of glycosaminoglycans in the body and predominant in cartilage, tendons and ligaments, it cannot be augmented well by oral intake except by increasing the intake of glucosamine and thereby providing material for the manufacture of chondroitin. Therefore, it makes sense that it is more cost effective to purchase pure glucosamine than the combination of the glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate.

Hope this helps!
Back to 'work.' 8-)

jazzpants

11-29-2004, 11:01 AM

OK, I have consulted with my trusty Merck Index (what else is there to do on a Monday after Thanksgiving?). The preferred form of glucosamine is the sulfate form. And looking at the molecular weight of chondroitin--~50,000, which is huge--you can see why it is NOT absorbed very well. In contrast, glucosamine (which, for my chemist friends out there, is just the aminated form of glucose) has a molecular weight of 179.

So, while chondroitin sulfate is the most abundant of glycosaminoglycans in the body and predominant in cartilage, tendons and ligaments, it cannot be augmented well by oral intake except by increasing the intake of glucosamine and thereby providing material for the manufacture of chondroitin. Therefore, it makes sense that it is more cost effective to purchase pure glucosamine than the combination of the glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate.

Hope this helps!
Back to 'work.' 8-)NoVaSk8r. WOW!!! Thank you so much for ALL THAT info!!! 8O :D

Okay, I see what's going on... and yes, you did confirm what my chiro says. (Well, my chiro's husband but he's a chiro too...) And WOW!!! I need all that glucosamine?!?!?! No wonder after a few months I still feel a bit of a backache.)

Re: Turnout...
My secondary coach says I need to take up ballet and yoga to improve my turnout!!! My primary coach jokingly says I should have a baby and have the baby stretch those hips out for me! :twisted: :lol:

Oh, it gets better... then my secondary coach has this idea of putting me against the wall and have me do a spreadeagle against the wall. Took a lot of effort but I managed it. She says afterwards "If you could do that, you can't use the 'I have no turnout' excuse on me anymore." EVIL EVIL coaches!!!! :twisted: :lol:

PattyP

11-29-2004, 02:48 PM

Maybe you should put those 3-turns from hell in a circular footwork sequence in your program so that you can make the judges go ooh and aah. Especially after next September when the new Gold skaters won't even be able to do it! :)

Actually they were in my Silver program last year. My coach did that on purpose so I had to practice them even more. Of course she had me do them on my weaker side, which was CCW. It did work, but I was terrified of that section of my program for a long time because of the speed I had going into it. By the time I got to AN last year, it felt pretty easy. This year I have just one set, CW in my straight line footwork, so I still have to practice them...ugh.

So if I was able to accomplish this move from hell...I should be able to learn a *$%#@# double jump...right? ;)

dcden

11-29-2004, 02:51 PM

I agree with everything skaternum has said except this. I have so little turn out that I actually have turn in and have been considering working on a "pigeon eagle". I have no problem at all with this Choctaw...

What I see as the major problem with the alt threes is the check on the FO pattern, and control of the BI edge to the line...

I am with dbny on this one. My turnout is also not spectacular, and yet I was able to do this move. IMO the move is not so much about having 180 degree turnout, but holding and checking the turnout that you do have after making the FO turn and while holding the BI edge to the center line. Before pushing from the BI to the next FO edge, your feet should be in a T position, so that when you make that little scooping mark at the end of the BI edge (don't know what that's called), you can push properly into the next FO. The trick is not the amount of turnout, but in keeping the free foot turned out after the turn, because once you lose that check, you can't get it back -- and that's usually when you put your foot down to regain the check.

That being said, the move seems to me to be more appropriate for Bronze level. Has anyone tried the variation move that is in the proposed pre-Bronze MIF test? Thoughts?

icedancer2

11-29-2004, 03:20 PM

I tried the variation move today with some other adult sktaers at my rink. It requires quick and strong checking, but because the turns appear shorter, you don't have to hold the 2nd edge on the turn as long. I still had the same problems that I have in one direction on all of the other moves.

I don't think it should be on pre-Bronze -- i think most adults at that level will find it either as difficult or more difficult than the alternating 3s. The pattern is kind of like the power 3s on the Bronze test, with the cross-over pattern on one lobe and the 3s on the other ( you really just have to go try it).

I think the alternating 3s should stay, but just move them to the Bronze level. Introducing the Waltz 8 at the pre-Bronze level is good, too.

Anyone else?

Debbie S

11-29-2004, 04:20 PM

The pattern is kind of like the power 3s on the Bronze test, with the cross-over pattern on one lobe and the 3s on the other ( you really just have to go try it).

Actually, it is different from the power 3's in that you are stepping to the same lobe. There is no choctaw turn from a BI to FO edge, as there is in the transitions in the alt 3's and power 3's. Maybe it's just me, but I find stepping to a FI edge and continuing in the same direction much easier than stepping outside and starting a new lobe going in the opposite direction. Then again, I also have stronger inside edges than outside (forward, that is).

daisies

11-29-2004, 05:36 PM

I think icedancer2 is right. On the power 3, the last edge before you step forward to do a FO power 3 is a BI edge ... so BI edge to FO edge is the same choctaw as in the alternating 3s. What makes the choctaw in the alternating 3s so hard, though, is the check from the 3-turn that precedes the choctaw. At least in the power 3s, the crossover gives you a chance to square yourself off after the 3-turn.

Actually, it is different from the power 3's in that you are stepping to the same lobe. There is no choctaw turn from a BI to FO edge, as there is in the transitions in the alt 3's and power 3's. Maybe it's just me, but I find stepping to a FI edge and continuing in the same direction much easier than stepping outside and starting a new lobe going in the opposite direction. Then again, I also have stronger inside edges than outside (forward, that is).

icedancer2

11-29-2004, 06:17 PM

Actually, it is different from the power 3's in that you are stepping to the same lobe. There is no choctaw turn from a BI to FO edge, as there is in the transitions in the alt 3's and power 3's.

Yes, that is true, but the people I was skating with found that part confusing. I thought it was slightly easier than the power-3 pattern, but I'm guessin that what we will see with this move at the pre-Bronze level is a lot of shipping and flailing arms (judging by our experience today).

Mrs. Redboots, is this the same pattern that you guys do in Great Britain, or is this from the Canadian Skating skills, or what?

DancinDiva

11-29-2004, 08:10 PM

I haven't seen this new pattern yet. Can someone describe it for me please?

icedancer2

11-29-2004, 11:39 PM

I haven't seen this new pattern yet. Can someone describe it for me please?

Go to this page of the USFSA website. Scroll down to where it says: Proposed Pre-Bronze MITF and click where it says "diagram" -- you will get a PDF-file for the move in question.

http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=27717

Mrs Redboots

11-30-2004, 07:19 AM

That being said, the move seems to me to be more appropriate for Bronze level. Has anyone tried the variation move that is in the proposed pre-Bronze MIF test? Thoughts?I tried it today - it's very like the Evil 3-turn Exercise my coach has me do, only an inside edge instead of an outside edge. It would take me some work to get it passable, mind, but it's quite do-able. My husband's coach was surprised that FI3s were in "such an early test" (we don't have adult tests here, and FI3s don't figure in the first couple of levels of standard test, if not the first 3), so I explained that skaters doing it were probably roughly the equivalent of level 3-4 of our standard tests. All the same, it does seem quite challenging for pre-Bronze; personally, I'd have kept the alternating 3s, or perhaps a plain European Waltz-type exercise.

I also played with alternating 3s, since I'm on record as saying I find them easier to do than waltz 8s! Which I do, but then I have never claimed to do them all that well.....

doubletoe

11-30-2004, 01:31 PM

Actually they were in my Silver program last year. My coach did that on purpose so I had to practice them even more. Of course she had me do them on my weaker side, which was CCW. It did work, but I was terrified of that section of my program for a long time because of the speed I had going into it. By the time I got to AN last year, it felt pretty easy. This year I have just one set, CW in my straight line footwork, so I still have to practice them...ugh.

So if I was able to accomplish this move from hell...I should be able to learn a *$%#@# double jump...right? ;)

Exactly! Although I never call it a "double". I like to call it "a single with a pull-in". Less intimidating that way. :)

And I think what gave me the idea of putting those evil 3's in your program was that when I watched your circular footwork at Sectionals, I was thinking, gee, that looks hard, LOL! Well, no wonder! ;)