Do I deserve clean ice?

[icedancer2]

I'm wondering if other rinks have this problem: Say there are two sessions in mid-morning. One is called "Public" and can be attended by anyone.

The next session, after the ice-cut, is called "Adult/Ice Dance" -- so, you can be an Adult and do anything you want, or you can be an ice-dancer of any age. It's potentially a very nice session.

So for two weeks in a row they have not done the ice-cut between the sessions. They will ask the people on the Public session (who happen to be ice-dancers) if the ice needs to be cut and they say no it doesn't, so they don't clean the ice. I get there for the "Adult/Ice Dance" session and the ice hasn't been cut. It's not super-awful, but I feel that if I'm driving up there to go to this special session I deserve clean ice. The other people on the session don't seem to care that much, but it really offends me that they don't respect this session (and the Adult skaters) enough to make clean ice.

I figure they have one thing to sell, and that is ice. And if that's not there, then why bother?

Anyway, I left without skating, knowing that I would spend the whole session being cheesed off about not getting clean ice.

So does this happen where you skate?

[flo]

We often have this problem at one of the rinks. We had three long and full fs sessions in a row without a cut. The last session costs as much as the first, yet when we got on the ice was horrible. I spoke to the manager, and the ice is now being cut between the sessions. If the policy is to cut the ice after each public session, then speak to the manager and request that the ice be cut. As far as the dancers, often if you're already on the ice, you really don't notice the decline in quality and the need for a cut, but they should not make the decision for everyone, as it's obviously not ok with all.

[backspin]

On the other hand, if they don't zamboni, the skaters get an extra 10 or 15 minutes to skate. Our rink often asks us if we want a cut or not. Unless there are big ruts or holes, or lots of snow, what's the big deal? After 2 minutes you'd be adjusted to it & could get on w/ your practice.

ETA, you could also look at it as a chance to work on less than pristine ice since you never know what you're going to get on any given test or competition day. You have to be able to go out & do what you have to do regardless of the conditions.

[Terri C]

I have a similar dilemma here at my rink in Virginia. Our freestyles start at 2pm with a "scheduled" cut for either 4 or 4:20 pm. That usually doesn't happen because there are so few skaters on the ice until after 4pm.

While I understand that, what kills me is that there are so many skaters getting on the ice between 4 and 4:30 pm and by the time it's 5pm, the ice is awful and the session doesn't end until 5:50 pm!

[twokidsskatemom]

If it used by hockey players then yes.If you have alot of people on the ice doing alot of things, then yes.But if its a ps with few people and then goes to fs then I wouldnt.
A zam takes between 6 and 15 minutes and cost at least 30.00 to do, at least here.Most people would rather use the ice the way it is.
We usually dont zam between ps and fs if it hasnt been used much either. Helps all of us with ice costs.

[Justine_R]

I don't have this problem because after every session we have we have a flood but yes I do think you deserve clean ice!
Your paying top wack money here I think they should give you some respect and isn't a dance pattern supossed to be skated on clean ice so you can actually see your pattern?
Hmm..if it really bothers you maybe you can talk to the manager? :)

[twokidsskatemom]

But if they have to zam for just a few people that makes ice time go up. We have ice dancers here and they seem to be ok without a zam between sessions.

[slusher]

Canadians learn at an early age than an hour is not an hour, it is 50 minutes or an "hockey hour".

The ice cut is always included in the ice rental, pay for an hour, skate for 50 minutes. The flood is at the end of the previous guy's ice. They do a double flood, 2 resurfacers after the pro hockey players have been on and can do the flood in 10 minutes. Ice maintenance is a safety issue, despite the warnings of "at your own risk" that rink owners like to tell you.

Senior comp ice is flooded every 2 hours, there might be six skaters on the ice, but the toepick holes are craters of danger and it's those that require the flood, otherwise they could go the whole morning without a flood.

[fadedstardust]

But I mean ice dancers more than freestylers need very clean ice because of the deep edging, intricate footwork, and lifts (can't afford to trip over an ice chunk), so if THEY don't think the ice needs to be zammed, it probably doesn't, wouldn't you say? I understand what you say about wanting ice that has been cleaned right before you got on, but often when I skate morning high level sessions, I don't get there at the first session and they have been maybe 4-5 high/elite skaters on it before me, and trust me with all the huge toe-pick marks and spin tracings it's not exactly CLEAN but it's also not so messy that I couldn't skate just fine on it. There's definitely a difference between wanting fresh ice and needing fresh ice. It's your call- if you need it, put in a complaint at the office or go to a different rink. But I think ice dancers are picky about their ice, so they'd probably complain too if it was that bad. Just my thoughts on this, good luck.

PS: In response to one of the above comment, trust me...at least at my rink, we KNOW when the ice is getting bad. Haha. I can definitely tell even if it's mid-session, can't you?

[jenlyon60]

I've skated on all types of ice... including the remains of hockey practice, doing mid-range dances and MIF. Sure, it's more challenging, but what I've found is that the more one complains the more apt the rinks seem to be to sell the ice to hockey.

We have the issue where for our early morning FS/Dance session, the ice is only given a very quick flood the night before after midnight hockey finishes. Most of the time, there's sections of the ice that the zam driver missed, and it's obvious that the driver isn't cutting much at all, just laying water. I've thought about complaining about it, but given that we've lost half a sheet 2 mornings a week already (we have to share the FS sheet with hockey skills training twice a week, each of us gets half the ice), any more complaints and they may reschedule and give hockey the whole sheet on those 2 days.

[sk8pics]

This is sometimes a sore subject with me, too. Often it is one or two coaches who decide for their own convenience the ice doesn't need to be cut, when actually it is in bad, bad shape because it's been 3 hours or more since the last cut. Yes, if you are an accomplished skater or even a kid who is fearless bad ice may not bother you. But pardon me if I am not as secure as some of you. On bad ice, I slip, I skid, I tip over into holes in the ice, I may have trouble stopping quickly because my blade is skittering across all the bumps on the ice. My own coach will often agree with me about the poor ice conditions and he will go ask for the ice to be cut, but sometimes it still is not. Ten minutes will NOT make a difference in your skating ability, unless you are injured because you got your blade stuck in a rut and fall on your head (which did in fact happen to a friend of mine who was a pretty good skater actually). The other problem I have with this is that you don't know how many people are actually going to show up and the ice could be impossible to skate on half way through the session, and then there is no recourse other than to get off the ice or put up with it. Maybe if you're psychic about that you can tell me what lottery numbers to play.

As far as the original question goes, is there a published schedule indicating that the ice is supposed to be cut? If so, I would politely ask the manager to adhere to the schedule. Your money is just as good as anyone else's money and if you are paying for reasonably good ice you should get it. If others who are already there are waving off the cut and they are skaters rather than coaches I'd suggest that you make sure you are there to have your voice also heard. I have gone over to a coach about to wave off a cut and asked for the cut to be done and have usually been obliged. The only other option may be to find another time/place to skate and let them know why you are doing that.

[icedancer2]

This is sometimes a sore subject with me, too. Often it is one or two coaches who decide for their own convenience the ice doesn't need to be cut, when actually it is in bad, bad shape because it's been 3 hours or more since the last cut. Yes, if you are an accomplished skater or even a kid who is fearless bad ice may not bother you. But pardon me if I am not as secure as some of you. On bad ice, I slip, I skid, I tip over into holes in the ice, I may have trouble stopping quickly because my blade is skittering across all the bumps on the ice. My own coach will often agree with me about the poor ice conditions and he will go ask for the ice to be cut, but sometimes it still is not. Ten minutes will NOT make a difference in your skating ability, unless you are injured because you got your blade stuck in a rut and fall on your head (which did in fact happen to a friend of mine who was a pretty good skater actually). The other problem I have with this is that you don't know how many people are actually going to show up and the ice could be impossible to skate on half way through the session, and then there is no recourse other than to get off the ice or put up with it. Maybe if you're psychic about that you can tell me what lottery numbers to play.

As far as the original question goes, is there a published schedule indicating that the ice is supposed to be cut? If so, I would politely ask the manager to adhere to the schedule. Your money is just as good as anyone else's money and if you are paying for reasonably good ice you should get it. If others who are already there are waving off the cut and they are skaters rather than coaches I'd suggest that you make sure you are there to have your voice also heard. I have gone over to a coach about to wave off a cut and asked for the cut to be done and have usually been obliged. The only other option may be to find another time/place to skate and let them know why you are doing that.

The schedule states that there is an ice-cut before the session. If it didn't then I wouldn't haggle.

This is not my normal rink, but the ice there is generally very very good, better than the rink where I usually skate. So I like going to this session where it is mostly adults and some teenage ice-dancers (they do Moves, too, and this is no big deal). But when two weeks in a row someone is basically just being lazy and not making clean ice, it really cheeses me off. I mean, really, if I want crappy ice I'd go to my regular rink, where at least they are friendly about it!

I am a good skater and have skated on all sorts of ice. I just think it's rude to not do it when it is published. I kind of expect that good ice if I go up there.

I also like to do some figures as warmup before I do any dance or moves. I realize that it can't be like a patch session -- people will skate through my figures and that's okay, it's just more fun to do it on clean ice!

So I expressed my concerns to someone later in the day -- just asking if I should speak with the manager, and they helped me make a decision as to what to do and spoke with some of the people there. Then today I found out that the place has MUCH bigger problems (relating to the economy, basically) than my complaint about ice cuts, so I have pretty much decided to shut up and go back to my favorite rink, where I skated for an hour this morning, alone, and was able to do figure layouts all down the ice. It was awesome (and the ice between the ruts was really darn good! :D ).

Anyway, it's good to see the different perspectives and how people have dealt with it.

I like Slusher's comment the best:

Canadians learn at an early age than an hour is not an hour, it is 50 minutes or an "hockey hour".

The ice cut is always included in the ice rental, pay for an hour, skate for 50 minutes. The flood is at the end of the previous guy's ice. They do a double flood, 2 resurfacers after the pro hockey players have been on and can do the flood in 10 minutes. Ice maintenance is a safety issue, despite the warnings of "at your own risk" that rink owners like to tell you.

Makes me want to live in Canada, where, apparently, rules are rules. :)

[fadedstardust]

Most- if not all rinks- have a disclosure somewhere (usually in plain sight but not always) stating that ice-makes are "at the discretion" of the rink, regardless of what is advertized, this is to cover their own asses in situations like this. Keep that in mind if that ever happens again, though I am glad you found a solution. Usually, it's not people being lazy, the zamboni drivers are just there, sitting around, doing nothing. But it costs a rink a lot to run the machine if not many people are using/paying for ice.

Good luck at your old rink! :)

[Aussie Willy]

Pretty fortunate where I am that the ice gets cut after each session and it gets cut half way through the afternoon figure sessions. However there have been times when the zamboni has broken down and then I just refuse to skate because I know I won't enjoy it.

As for the quality of the cut and the temperature of the ice - well that is another issue. Even after it is cut it is sometimes so bad that it makes a session very unpleasant.

I would be complaining to the manager (in a nice way of course) and just saying that it needs to be cut for the dance session. Just get together with the others who do the session as well so you have back up.

[iskatealot]

I just wanted 2 say that my rink floods between everyone so an hour is only 50minutes but I skated In China 4 1 year and the rink was tiny, there was public skatind and figure skating at the same time always and they only flooded everyotherday and it acctually helped because if Im skating in a competition and my flight is rite before the flood the ice will be bad but it doesnt really matter as much 2o me anymore

[gregyoshi]

This is a major pet peeve of mine. I skate at a rink that has a very (IMHO) strange policy about ice resurfacing. They'll cut the ice for the hockey sessions and early morning freestyle, but are very unpredictable about cutting it at other times. It all depends on the number of people skating. I've been told by a staff person at my rink that it costs $75.00 for each ice cut. Cough cough. They say they can't justify cutting the ice if there are only a few people skating, but sometimes they neglect to do it at a public session when there are over a hundred people skating and the session lasts 3 hours. After about one hour the ice is dangerous with that kind of skating volume but they don't seem to care about that. They'll cut it when the owner's daughter is skating though...... I believe it's all about laziness rather than money, but that's just me.

Anyhow, I think having good ice is even more important for the skaters who are just learning and can't maneuver very well over the bumps, etc. I skate at both freestyle and public sessions and I'm learning to cope with the crud, but I really feel bad for the people who are nervous anyway and not only have to worry about just skating, but also about avoiding pitfalls. I feel safety should be the number 1 priority with ice but I think I'm one of the few who thinks so at my rink. I don't have the answers really but maybe if enough people ask about ice cuts and find out whats going on, things will improve. I also know that rinks can invest in less expensive resurfacing machines than the Zambonis and Olympias-there are electric machines that are much cheaper to run and could be used alternately with the Zams to cut costs but raise your hand here if you know much about them? Grrrrrrrr.

[twokidsskatemom]

my dh is a zam driver and it costs about 30 or so per zam.We live in a pretty spendy area.... so I would assume that is a average.
Our zam I think is pretty new, rink only open 3 years.It runs on propane.