Skating books--group & private lessons

[backspin]

**I started this out as an answer to trains' question in the "age to start dance" thread, but it got so far OT, I decided to give it its own thread. She was asking about the books & the gold stickers the kids get in their LTS classes.

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Here in the states, with the USFS (or is it ISI?--can't remember) group classes, the kids get books that list all their required elements for each class. There's a spot for a gold sticker to be placed next to each element as they do it at a passing level. That way, even if they don't pass the whole level, they can see what they did good, & also see what they need to work on. The kids love getting their gold stars!

As an aside, many of the coaches at my rink follow that same line of thought, & have each of their private students keep a "skating journal". They can write in it (for the kids if they're really little)--what they're working on, what they're supposed to remember to do, new step sequences, etc. Then the coaches put stickers in their books when they work hard on those elements.

I started working w/ a new little 7 year old student last week. She is my first very little student, so I decided to use the book concept on her. I found a very pretty notebook at the dollar store, with a picture of a kitty on the front. I also got a pen for her to keep with the book. Also at the same dollar store I found booklets of "praise" stickers (obviously meant for teachers) that are stars, happy faces, some say "great!" or "well done!", etc. So for very little money I had what I needed.

& when I gave her the book, you should have seen her face! I also noticed 2 other little girls getting their skates on who were looking pretty envious.... ;)

She brings her book to each lesson, & we (I) write a couple of notes in it about what we did that day. Next lesson, I think I'll give out a sticker or two, by the things she's made the most progress in.

[twokidsskatemom]

Read my reply to the other thread lol
As I said, for some Im sure its a great idea !! But what happens when you forget your stickers on a day?Its supposed to be an internal motivation, not a outside one.
maybe its cause I cant get my kids off the ice I feel that way. I just know I dont want them to skate for stickers but for the love of the ice.
Im not a coach, so ymmv...

[dbny]

I carry a sheet or two of stickers in my coaching jacket and always give each tot a sticker at the end of every class. They love it!

edited to add: I don't consider this a motivation. It's part of the fun, which is the focus of skating lessons for little kids.

[backspin]

I can see your point, but my opinion is that it's good for the younger kids for a couple of reasons:

They have to work for quite a long time before they'll be ready for their first USFS test (Pre-pre moves--a passable waltz-8 will take some long, hard practice!). This gives them some measure of progress & reinforcement that they are, indeed, progressing, before they get their first "big" pass at a test session.

Even in a group class setting the younger ones can get discouraged once they hit the harder levels. My 7 year old is going through Basic 5 for the third time, & I could tell was starting to get weary of it. Not that she's ready to pass B. 5--she's definitely not--but I can give her some feedback on what she's doing well, what we're going to keep working on, & a little tangible reward for those small steps along the way before she passes the whole level.

Skating takes dedication and determination, and *time*, and for young children that can be hard. I want it to be fun, & I want her to see that her work is paying off.

[twokidsskatemom]

Yes, I see your point but for each child its different.Maybe its my kids who are so different but they see how much better they have gotten without anything like that. My kids watch other kids and see to do something they have to do it again and again.They see the older kids fall doing jumps and get back up again.They know to have good jumps they have to have great backwards stroking so she does that every day.
since Im not a coach, im not the right person to answer :) But my 5 yo practices her jumps to get better for herself not anyone else.She has worked herself up to test level in about 20 months.She isnt going to test for awhile but could soon if we let her.
again, maybe they are different. They are all I have so i have no clue :)

[Lmarletto]

I can see your point, but my opinion is that it's good for the younger kids for a couple of reasons:

They have to work for quite a long time before they'll be ready for their first USFS test (Pre-pre moves--a passable waltz-8 will take some long, hard practice!). This gives them some measure of progress & reinforcement that they are, indeed, progressing, before they get their first "big" pass at a test session.

Even in a group class setting the younger ones can get discouraged once they hit the harder levels. My 7 year old is going through Basic 5 for the third time, & I could tell was starting to get weary of it. Not that she's ready to pass B. 5--she's definitely not--but I can give her some feedback on what she's doing well, what we're going to keep working on, & a little tangible reward for those small steps along the way before she passes the whole level.

Skating takes dedication and determination, and *time*, and for young children that can be hard. I want it to be fun, & I want her to see that her work is paying off.

This is exactly what I like about the USFSA sticker book. I think the reward value of the stickers is miniscule. But the way it lays out a skater's past, present and future effort is very helpful to a lot of younger children.

I talked with a coach (who also has a degree in child development) about how quickly my daughter gets frustrated when a skill doesn't come easily to her. The coach said that most 6yos don't truly understand that skills are acquired through practice and nothing but maturing will make them understand that. I don't think that having a tangible record of her progress has convinced my daughter of the value of practice, but the fact that the stickers just keep on coming has helped her to relax when she gets hung up on an individual skill and it has helped her to see that some of the skills she covets are a finite distance away.

Now her brother never cared a bit about sticker "rewards" for anything. I don't know if he was developmentally more advanced or temperamentally just totally immune to external motivation.

[backspin]

I also agree it totally depends on the kid. It may be more of a "girl" thing than a "boy" thing.

We have an 11 year novice girl training here--& she still has her book & gets stickers from one of her coaches! And obviously, this is an extremely talented & self-motivated child, who doesn't need the lure of new stickers to keep her hammering away at her triple jumps. But doesn't every little girl like stickers? :mrgreen:

[Lmarletto]

We have an 11 year novice girl training here--& she still has her book & gets stickers from one of her coaches! And obviously, this is an extremely talented & self-motivated child, who doesn't need the lure of new stickers to keep her hammering away at her triple jumps. But doesn't every little girl like stickers? :mrgreen:
:lol: Maybe the ritual has acquired meaning way beyond the stickers? Smart coach to see emotional value in a little thing that most people would write off as childish.

[twokidsskatemom]

the thing about stickers, rewards ect is that at some point, they have to stop.They either have to get it or not, to practice for the sake of betterment.
Im not sure if its a girl thing or just something that people have come to expect here.I do think a 6 yo should get the concept, its like reading or anything else. To do it, you have to practice.Golf, reading, math, manners ect.
But then as I said, maybe its just my kids or what we expect of them. If I had to give them stickers to practice, I wouldnt think they want it bad enough yet.

[TashaKat]

But why SHOULD they want it 'bad enough' at such a young age??? If they are enjoying it and are motivated then fine, that's great. As far as a 6 year old 'should get the concept', I'm sorry but a 6 year old should be a child. I'm sure that some 6 year olds get the concept but, at the end of the day, they are children. So much can happen over the next few years that, in my opinion, at such a young age the focus should be on fun while learning so that the enjoyment continues rather than becoming a grind. I've seen so many talented kids give up because of the expectations put upon them.

I, myself, started ballet when I was 4. I loved it and enjoyed going but there were times when I was fed up and didn't want to go or wanted to give up. It got to the point where the expectations of my parents and my teachers ground me down. I DID, thankfully, carry on but I could very easily have packed it all in. Small things like a sticker system are, imo, a good idea. It's a fun thing, it keeps the interest and, rather than not wanting it bad enough it makes most children want to work harder to get the stickers.

As for

the thing about stickers, rewards ect is that at some point, they have to stop

that happens naturally anyway, there comes a time when it isn't cool anymore! A bit like Father Christmas .......

[twokidsskatemom]

But why SHOULD they want it 'bad enough' at such a They are still young age??? If they are enjoying it and are motivated then fine, that's great. As far as a 6 year old 'should get the concept', I'm sorry but a 6 year old should be a child. I'm sure that some 6 year olds get the concept but, at the end of the day, they are children. So much can happen over the next few years that, in my opinion, at such a young age the focus should be on fun while learning so that the enjoyment continues rather than becoming a grind. I've seen so many talented kids give up because of the expectations put upon them.

I, myself, started ballet when I was 4. I loved it and enjoyed going but there were times when I was fed up and didn't want to go or wanted to give up. It got to the point where the expectations of my parents and my teachers ground me down. I DID, thankfully, carry on but I could very easily have packed it all in. Small things like a sticker system are, imo, a good idea. It's a fun thing, it keeps the interest and, rather than not wanting it bad enough it makes most children want to work harder to get the stickers.

As for



that happens naturally anyway, there comes a time when it isn't cool anymore! A bit like Father Christmas .......


Not sure where I said expections, but when your kids are having private lessons, group lessons, ice time ect then they either want it bad enough or not. My kids are kids at the end of it are kids but at least one of them wants to practice 2 or more hours a day 5 days a week. We dont want her to, SHE does and we LET her.
If its a child in once a week lessons, then that is different as they dont have the practice time to get better faster. My dd sees the difference in HERSELF weekly.SHe sees the kids going to regionals practice daily and that is what SHe wants. We dont, SHe does.
She sees them and for her that is enough.She has enough time and we dont expect anything.Just for her to have fun and anyone who knows her knows she does.
this is ot subject, But a 6yo should get the fact you have to practice to get better. What is school? They see football players golfers, tennis players everything is about pratice. No one said they have to, but its apart of life.Even my youngest gets the idea of practice.

All kids might not like it but how do they get better in handwriting, math, reading?A 6yo does them daily.
as far as stickers, we have never used them as a parent.Im speaking as a parent and we never will. Dont see the need.
ymmv as always. Im not a coach so this is just how we do things.I have never made my kids skate, they want it.

[Mrs Redboots]

We used stickers when my girl was about 3 to help her stop coming into our bed every single night (it worked - but she still came occasionally until she was 10! Occasionally was fine, though). It was the only time we did use them, and when she had enough stickers we bought her a "Mr Men" book (which at the time she adored) as a reward. (But my sister, who received a penny for each fingernail my mother could cut when the time came, was still asking my mother to cut her fingernails when she was 16 or 17! Me, I just got a toy - it was a set of Farm Fuzzy-Felt, IIRC - as a reward for having long nails one week, and never bit my nails since. Wish I'd got 10p a time!)

As for learning skating, here in the UK there is a series of 10 Learn-to-skate tests which everybody does, whether they are 3 or 63, and then 3 "Star Skate" tests (some of which, in the dance tests at least, are harder than the standard tests) before you qualify for Level 1. You can buy a book in which your tests are recorded, and you can also buy a flash to sew on your warm-up jacket. Neither is compulsory, but the parents often do buy them for their kids.

[Lmarletto]

the thing about stickers, rewards ect is that at some point, they have to stop.They either have to get it or not, to practice for the sake of betterment.
Im not sure if its a girl thing or just something that people have come to expect here.I do think a 6 yo should get the concept, its like reading or anything else. To do it, you have to practice.Golf, reading, math, manners ect.
But then as I said, maybe its just my kids or what we expect of them. If I had to give them stickers to practice, I wouldnt think they want it bad enough yet.

In my experience, figure skating is completely different from other sports when it comes to young children. My kids have been involved in soccer, hockey, golf, gymnastics and ballet (not exactly a sport, but similar in a lot of ways). In all those cases, the very best programs are/were the ones where young children were introduced to skills without any pressure to perform to a standard. The best coaches and instructors discourage anything like serious training until 8-10yo. Well, except for gymnastics, where a child with obvious talent and drive is referred to a program specifically designed for training elite competitors.

In figure skating, from the very beginning, instruction is structured pretty much the same way all the way to the top - a linear progression of skills that are tested and passed. Some 6yos have the perfect temperament for that sort of system and they are the ones that will progress very rapidly at a young age. But you know, a physically precocious child can love skating and not love the pressure that that system puts on them. And it can be very difficult for a parent to insulate a child from that elite competitive mindset that permeates figure skating right down to the lowest level.

I do agree with you that using stickers (or anything else) as a bribe doesn't help a child in the long run. But really, the inability to grasp the value of deliberate practice in a way that really motivates you is not a character flaw in a 6yo. :roll:

[twokidsskatemom]

In my experience, figure skating is completely different from other sports when it comes to young children. My kids have been involved in soccer, hockey, golf, gymnastics and ballet (not exactly a sport, but similar in a lot of ways). In all those cases, the very best programs are/were the ones where young children were introduced to skills without any pressure to perform to a standard. The best coaches and instructors discourage anything like serious training until 8-10yo. Well, except for gymnastics, where a child with obvious talent and drive is referred to a program specifically designed for training elite competitors.

In figure skating, from the very beginning, instruction is structured pretty much the same way all the way to the top - a linear progression of skills that are tested and passed. Some 6yos have the perfect temperament for that sort of system and they are the ones that will progress very rapidly at a young age. But you know, a physically precocious child can love skating and not love the pressure that that system puts on them. And it can be very difficult for a parent to insulate a child from that elite competitive mindset that permeates figure skating right down to the lowest level.

I do agree with you that using stickers (or anything else) as a bribe doesn't help a child in the long run. But really, the inability to grasp the value of deliberate practice in a way that really motivates you is not a character flaw in a 6yo. :roll:

I dont think its a flaw, just mean child isnt there yet.they maybe be there some day or never there kwim?I think for some kids no matter how matter stickers one would give them, its just not the sport for them.
:)

[twokidsskatemom]

We used stickers when my girl was about 3 to help her stop coming into our bed every single night (it worked - but she still came occasionally until she was 10! Occasionally was fine, though). It was the only time we did use them, and when she had enough stickers we bought her a "Mr Men" book (which at the time she adored) as a reward. (But my sister, who received a penny for each fingernail my mother could cut when the time came, was still asking my mother to cut her fingernails when she was 16 or 17! Me, I just got a toy - it was a set of Farm Fuzzy-Felt, IIRC - as a reward for having long nails one week, and never bit my nails since. Wish I'd got 10p a time!)

As for learning skating, here in the UK there is a series of 10 Learn-to-skate tests which everybody does, whether they are 3 or 63, and then 3 "Star Skate" tests (some of which, in the dance tests at least, are harder than the standard tests) before you qualify for Level 1. You can buy a book in which your tests are recorded, and you can also buy a flash to sew on your warm-up jacket. Neither is compulsory, but the parents often do buy them for their kids.
I tried a offer of a new toy and a choice of going out to get my ds to sleep in his own bed. hasnt work yet.Im sure just like his sister when he is ready, he will.We have found for our family that is works best for us.
My kids do get the patches for moving up which they like alot. But we dont make an issue out of what level or how long it took to get there.

[luna_skater]

Different kids "get it" at different ages. When I was 6 I had to be dragged to the rink and forced onto the ice. I got all kinds of badges and medals as rewards for accomplishment before I discovered that I really just loved skating--YEARS later.

I see kids at my rink who are the same age but entirely different in terms of motivation and development. There is one girl who is a pre-novice competitor and is an absolutely outstanding skater. She's about 13 or 14. She works hard on that ice, and her results at competitions are showing it. I fully expect to see her at Canadians in a few years. Then, there are skaters that are the same age or older than her, who are not self-motivated and borderline lazy. (Of course, some people are also naturally gifted and some aren't).

I think those skaters who are self-motivated are going to be that way whether they receive stickers or not. Receiving stickers isn't going to inhibit that self-motivation. Rather, it might keep skaters going longer until they get to the stage where they are internally motivated.

You just can't generalize with skating. Skaters start at different ages, progress at different rates, and have different goals in mind. It's impossible to tell at age 6 where that skater will be at age 16. At age 6, it should be about FUN above everything else...even for the self-motivated skaters. No matter what your age...when the fun goes away, the love of the sport goes away.

[twokidsskatemom]

Different kids "get it" at different ages. When I was 6 I had to be dragged to the rink and forced onto the ice. I got all kinds of badges and medals as rewards for accomplishment before I discovered that I really just loved skating--YEARS later.



Then I would have taken you off the ice and waited till atime you were ready.Stickers dont really make kids want to practice or skate.If they are really motivated by stickers then its the stickers.
Im a parent talking, not a coach.Im just saying for my family, and as a parent, i dont want my kids to do things based on those kinds of rewards.No one said it wasnt fun for my kids, if it wasnt they wouldnt skate as much as they do.They make it what is it. If they didnt then we would find another thing to do.

[Lmarletto]

Different kids "get it" at different ages. When I was 6 I had to be dragged to the rink and forced onto the ice.

Then I would have taken you off the ice and waited till atime you were ready.

Ack! If I had to drag my daughter to the rink, she wouldn't be skating. There are enough activities she enjoys that we don't need to be pushing one she doesn't. That's a no brainer to me.

What to do with a kid who loves being on the ice and tries to teach herself what she'd like to do while refusing to practice what she thinks is boring is a lot harder. I suppose I could refuse to let her skate unless she commits to learning it in the officially approved order. I think it's kinder to 1) try to find learning environments that appeal to her and 2) try to find ways to help her see that the skills that seem pointless are building blocks for the fun stuff.

It's about to get harder because she's gone from Basic 4 to Basic 8 in the last 8 weeks. We'll see how the FS group lessons go. Those kids are older and look a lot more focussed.

[twokidsskatemom]

the nice thing about private lessons is there isnt an real order kwim.?they teach things all the time out of order.
maybe explain to her just like you cant read till you know your abcs, its hard to add unless you know your numbers,its hard to do jumps unless you have good backwards crossovers.You need to have great fast stroking for great jumps with height.Everything does add and add and add, but there are things they can work on out of order. Lets work on great stroking for 10 minutes then do spirals or shoot the ducks. You need a good shoot the duck to help with your sit spin.
maybe if she see that idea, look at the jumps and the backwards, look at the 3turns, ect she will get the idea a bit more.
hth a bit :)

[luna_skater]

Then I would have taken you off the ice and waited till atime you were ready.

My parents put me in skating lessons so I would know how to skate, not so I could be a figure skating champion. They wanted me to be able to get around the ice without holding on the boards when we went skating at school. I wasn't taking private lessons or anything. It's not like they had to drag me kicking and screaming to the rink; I just wasn't all that enthralled with skating. They kept me in it because even though I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and they wanted me to have a winter activity. They would rather have me in an activity that I was indifferent to, than do nothing at all. Kids complain about stuff all the time. I would have been the world's biggest couch potato if my parents had taken me out of an activity every time I said I didn't feel like going. I can't imagine my life if my parents had taken me out of skating just because I wasn't obsessed with it as a child. :??

[twokidsskatemom]

My parents put me in skating lessons so I would know how to skate, not so I could be a figure skating champion. They wanted me to be able to get around the ice without holding on the boards when we went skating at school. I wasn't taking private lessons or anything. It's not like they had to drag me kicking and screaming to the rink; I just wasn't all that enthralled with skating. They kept me in it because even though I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and they wanted me to have a winter activity. They would rather have me in an activity that I was indifferent to, than do nothing at all. Kids complain about stuff all the time. I would have been the world's biggest couch potato if my parents had taken me out of an activity every time I said I didn't feel like going. I can't imagine my life if my parents had taken me out of skating just because I wasn't obsessed with it as a child. :??
I think what the other mom and I meant was that for us, if ours kids didnt want to skate they have a ton of other things that they could do. even in winter in a place that is colder than where you are, we have alot of things for kids to do.
I dont ever thing its a good idea to have a child do something they arent having fun or really into.Its just how we are raising our kids and for us it works.We let them have a say in their choices.

[twokidsskatemom]

My parents put me in skating lessons so I would know how to skate, not so I could be a figure skating champion. They wanted me to be able to get around the ice without holding on the boards when we went skating at school. I wasn't taking private lessons or anything. It's not like they had to drag me kicking and screaming to the rink; I just wasn't all that enthralled with skating. They kept me in it because even though I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and they wanted me to have a winter activity. They would rather have me in an activity that I was indifferent to, than do nothing at all. Kids complain about stuff all the time. I would have been the world's biggest couch potato if my parents had taken me out of an activity every time I said I didn't feel like going. I can't imagine my life if my parents had taken me out of skating just because I wasn't obsessed with it as a child. :??
no, not all kids conplain all the time.No, i wouldnt ever make my kids go if they didnt want to. :)
Im glad you found skating as a love later in life. but there are kids who with making their own choices, find it much sooner.Nothing wrong with that either.

[twokidsskatemom]

My parents put me in skating lessons so I would know how to skate, not so I could be a figure skating champion. They wanted me to be able to get around the ice without holding on the boards when we went skating at school. I wasn't taking private lessons or anything. It's not like they had to drag me kicking and screaming to the rink; I just wasn't all that enthralled with skating. They kept me in it because even though I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and they wanted me to have a winter activity. They would rather have me in an activity that I was indifferent to, than do nothing at all. Kids complain about stuff all the time. I would have been the world's biggest couch potato if my parents had taken me out of an activity every time I said I didn't feel like going. I can't imagine my life if my parents had taken me out of skating just because I wasn't obsessed with it as a child. :??
And do you think I have my kids skate so they can be champions? Nope nope nope nope. They started the same way in lts classes. I would have never guessed that two years ago we would be at the rink this much.We are just along for our childs journey.The are leading us on the path they want.