Soliciting? at group lessons

[Lmarletto]

I don't know if soliciting is the right word, but how common or appropriate is it for coaches to approach a parent of a skater in group lessons. A few weeks ago I switched my daughter to group lessons at a new rink, hoping they would be better than where she had been. After the first lesson two different coaches asked if she was taking private lessons and gave me their card. One coach basically just told me how great he was and I wrote him off right away. The other coach mostly talked about my daughter, asked some questions, made some observations that I thought were pretty perceptive. But I was under the impression that coaches shouldn't be the ones to initiate discussions of private lessons.

My daughter is 6 and in Basic 4, however she has taught herself some miscellaneous skills through Basic 8. IMO, at the moment her schedule is too full to work in private lessons. I'd also like to take some time getting to know this rink before making any commitments. Should I be wary of coach #2? I made a point to casually chat with the parents of a couple of her students and they seemed genuinely enthusiastic about her.

I'd love to hear from people who know the "rules".

[Chico]

I'm pretty sure from my experiences that coaches don't ask. (shouldn't) They can present a positive I'm available attitude though. Soliciting a fellow coaches student is a fate worse than death. Just kidding, sorta. It is a fine line I'm guessing. Personally I don't envy them. When and if you decide you want private lessons the choice is yours. (And, if the coach is available.) I would watch both group and private lessons. Which coach appeals to you and would work best with your child? Which skaters do you admire and seemed well trained? Coaches tend to teach what they know. Listen. Sitting on the bench you can hear much from fellow parents. Why do they like their coach? Is their child happy, making progress, and enjoying the experience? Private lessons can be the start to a skating commitment as a parent. Make sure you pick wisely so the two of you can have a long and positive relationship. Oh, I like the idea of a coach who is open to team coaching with fellow coaches. It's good to learn things from a different perspective and nobody knows EVERYTHING. In fact be wary of the coach who does.

Chico

[backspin]

Speaking as a coach, I can tell you that at my rink it's both acceptable and common. Group lessons are how we get private students, and we are always looking for kids that show motivation and promise. I can tell you, if I saw a basic 4 kid doing basic 8 stuff that they'd taught themselves, I'd be talking to you too! We get excited about seeing talent, and parents don't always know that their kid is shining above & beyond the others in the class.

I wouldn't be offended or bothered by the coach approaching you, unless they're making wild promises like, "I can make your child a champion!" If it's along the lines of "your kid is showing a lot of motivation and some real talent, and they might learn faster in a private lesson setting", that's valid. If you look at it this way, a child that learns that fast may get bored in group lessons, and almost certainly won't progress as fast as they could, because the teacher can't give them one on one time to give them new skills & hone technique. The other danger is that skills that are self-taught are very often incorrect as far as technique goes, & then they have to un-learn the bad habits down the road.

That said the conversation w/ the coach should be low-pressure, & more information giving / suggesting than pressuring and promise making. As an aside, I give *all* of my group class participants a handout that talks about private lessons, when they might be appropriate, how they work, etc., along with my business card.

[Aussie Willy]

I don't see it as too much of a problem as long as they are not pushy. You already said that one tried to tell you how fantastic they were and another made positive comments about your daughter and showed an interest. When it comes down to it they are business people and it is how they earn their money so naturally they are going to do some self promotion. And at most rinks that is also how they get students - from the group lessons.

I am a driving instructor. Basically I give people who mention they are learning to drive my business card and leave it up to them. If they are interested they will get back to me but I don't keep asking them if they want to do lessons because being pushy can be very off putting. That may be the attitude of the coaches. If one of them started hassling me each week about doing lessons I would be getting annoyed.

I would suggest don't go for lessons straight away and I am sure your daughter will decide who she wants to learn from when she has time. And word of mouth is one of the best form of advertising a coach can have. Ask other what they think about each of the coaches.

[CeeCee]

Group lessons are the main link to private lessons at many rinks. Skaters who show promise are noticed at a very basic level. They draw attention. If I were you I would talk with the skating director at the Ice Arena about private instructors. The director should be able to give some valuable recommendations and should also be informed if their coaches are doing things to make the group lesson participants uncomfortable.

[twokidsskatemom]

I HAVE two kids, both in privates. I dont think either child would be where they are without it as they can move much faster.
But with privates come more practice time. More ice time, much more money. My 5yo is doing single jumps, spins and footwork she coudnt get out of a group lesson at least not here.
Its hard to figure out if the coach is telling you he truth about your child. I started to pay more weight to what I was told by the coaches when parents told me the same thing.They have no reason to lie. the only no bo I know of its coaches poaching other coaches kids. That is a big no no !!

[Lmarletto]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess it just took me by surprise because I never experienced anything like it at the old rink. Now that I think about it though, it makes perfect sense. I had arranged for private lessons with one of my daughter's group lesson coaches when she was in Pre-Alpha. Not because I had any ambitions for her, but because I could see that the way the group lessons were taught was going to be a disaster for a 4yo. No way would any other coach have approached me then. When her coach left, none of the other coaches struck me as a great choice for my daughter, so it seemed like a good time to look around for better group lessons.

If it's along the lines of "your kid is showing a lot of motivation and some real talent, and they might learn faster in a private lesson setting", that's valid.

This is pretty much the gist of what coach #2 said. She must have been fuming when coach #1 (the "I'm so great" guy) got to me first :lol: , since she's the coach for my daughter's group lessons. She really impressed me with some of the things she noticed about my daughter, but I will take some time to watch her with my daughter in group lessons and talk to other parents at the rink. My daughter has proclaimed her " the funnest skating teacher ever I had". :lol:

Thanks everyone for setting me straight.

[Aussie Willy]

She really impressed me with some of the things she noticed about my daughter, but I will take some time to watch her with my daughter in group lessons and talk to other parents at the rink. My daughter has proclaimed her " the funnest skating teacher ever I had". :lol:
That is quite lovely for her to say that. Skating should be about fun and if you can find a coach you can have fun with at any level then I would say that is one of the foremost things to consider.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[twokidsskatemom]

because I could see that the way the group lessons were taught was going to be a disaster for a 4yo. No way would any other coach have approached me then. When her coach left, none of the other coaches struck me as a great choice for my daughter, so it seemed like a good time to look around for better


why wouldnt a coach have asked you then ?talent is there at an early age...
I think you posted before about your 4yo having privates,so is this the same child ?She has skated then for 2 years ?
Unless there was agreat need for it, if you have changed to a different rink with a better group lessons, i would not do privates.They do take a lot more time, from both parent and child.
But yes, most coaches get new students from group classes. That is a given, if there is any interest at all from the child.

[Lmarletto]

why wouldnt a coach have asked you then ?talent is there at an early age...
I think you posted before about your 4yo having privates,so is this the same child ?She has skated then for 2 years ?

What I meant was that she already had a coach, very early on, so no other coach would have approached me about private lessons at that point. The group lesson coaches in Tot 1-4 were always very complimentary of her abilities for for her age and her potential. I don't know, maybe they were feeling me out for interest in private lessons? But honestly if one of them had suggested it when she was still struggling with a one foot glide, I would have been :roll: .

This is the same child I posted about before. She has actually skated for 3 yrs, sometimes once a week, sometimes 4x/week, depending on her schedule and interest. She has just started to skate with a synchro team and her interest has ramped up again. Whatever her natural abilities may be, she is clearly not interested in "working" at skating at this point.

Unless there was agreat need for it, if you have changed to a different rink with a better group lessons, i would not do privates.

Until she expresses an interest in working on a program for competition or a show or starts to actually "work" on skills in a focussed way during public sessions, I don't see a need for private lessons either. Provided these group lessons continue to seem like a good value...

[CanAmSk8ter]

I also approach parents of my group lesson students about privates. In addition to any kids who are somewhat more talented than the rest of the class, I tend to talk to the parents of any kids who are super-enthusiastic and really enjoying themselves, and the kids who work really hard and actually practice during their practice time. It's more of a, "You know, he/she is doing great and seems to be having fun with skating... if you think he/she woud like to come in another day during the week or stay later on Saturdays and have a private lesson, let me know," kind of thing. I explain that the kids tend to move through the levels faster in private lessons and that they're eligible to do the competitions (making sure to emphasize that we're talking little, fun Basic Skill events).

I'd be (very) wary of the coach who basically told you all of his credentials, but otherwise it's really not out of the ordinary to be approached by the coaches, especially if your child has taught herself things beyond her level.

[twokidsskatemom]

I would also make sure whatever she is teaching herself is right, even if you just do one private to help.I did double check what 8 had in it so i assume you mean the waltz jump?
Group lessson are great, unless your child is super motivated to practice or really wants to get better now.I see a ton of kids here that are older, didnt do group lessons, and are trying to do the jumps but have no stroking skills at all.9 year olds that try and do a shoot the duck, lunge or salcow but cant really skate very well.I think at this age, basic stroking, advanced stroking and edge work are the key.
For her jumps I know that checking and holding the landing are inportant.I think bad habits are hard to break :cry:
good luck !!

[Lmarletto]

I did double check what 8 had in it so i assume you mean the waltz jump?

Yes, the waltz jump. :lol: Every little kid loves the waltz jump. Her former coach worked with her on it after seeing her do it at a public session. It's kind of small, but she does it correctly.

Group lessson are great, unless your child is super motivated to practice or really wants to get better now.I see a ton of kids here that are older, didnt do group lessons, and are trying to do the jumps but have no stroking skills at all.9 year olds that try and do a shoot the duck, lunge or salcow but cant really skate very well.I think at this age, basic stroking, advanced stroking and edge work are the key.

Her former coach said something similar - that most kids hate to practice stroking and edges, so we shouldn't be in a rush to move her through the basic skills lessons if she wasn't motivated to practice those things on her own.

[flippet]

This is the same child I posted about before. She has actually skated for 3 yrs, sometimes once a week, sometimes 4x/week, depending on her schedule and interest. She has just started to skate with a synchro team and her interest has ramped up again. Whatever her natural abilities may be, she is clearly not interested in "working" at skating at this point.



Until she expresses an interest in working on a program for competition or a show or starts to actually "work" on skills in a focussed way during public sessions, I don't see a need for private lessons either. Provided these group lessons continue to seem like a good value...
Does your daughter see any of the older kids working on programs, and/or has she seen a competition or been in a show? The reason I ask is that if she only sees the group kids, and they're all near her age and skill level, it may not occur to her to show interest in anything further. If you're ready for the potential increase, taking on some private lessons on a trial basis may help your daughter see the extra opportunities, and she may become more interested in 'working' on skating. I say on a trial basis though, because if she doesn't care for it, and really isn't interested in working harder once she sees what's available, then you can drop the privates, no harm, no foul. But if she likes this coach, she may get even more enjoyment from having her one-on-one, and want to work harder to please her.

I just know that when I was younger, if I had seen the world beyond basic group lessons, I might have caught the skating bug much earlier than I did (at 24). I don't remember being terribly disappointed at not doing more than one level of basic skills at 11, so I simply may not have understood all I could do.

[Lmarletto]

Does your daughter see any of the older kids working on programs, and/or has she seen a competition or been in a show? The reason I ask is that if she only sees the group kids, and they're all near her age and skill level, it may not occur to her to show interest in anything further. If you're ready for the potential increase, taking on some private lessons on a trial basis may help your daughter see the extra opportunities, and she may become more interested in 'working' on skating. I say on a trial basis though, because if she doesn't care for it, and really isn't interested in working harder once she sees what's available, then you can drop the privates, no harm, no foul. But if she likes this coach, she may get even more enjoyment from having her one-on-one, and want to work harder to please her.

She has several friends who compete and sees (parts of) freestyle and dance practice sessions fairly regularly. After a couple of years of watching her and listening to her, I think there two things that have kept her from getting serious about skating. One is that she is not interested in skating by herself. In general, she's just one of those people who craves human companionship. You can see when she is practicing with her synchro team that she loves having teammates.

The other is that what she really wants to do is dance on the ice. Synchro looks like it will satisfy that as well, however she will have to continue taking lessons if she wants to skate synchro. Unfortunately, the way lessons were taught at the old rink was absolute repetitive drudgery. One of the things that impressed me about this new coach was that she picked up right away on my daughter's skating=dancing mindset and embellished some of the group lesson skills to make them more appealing. I have actually been thinking that private lessons with this coach may be worth it just to make sure that my daughter will be interacting with someone who "gets" what she likes about skating.

[Mrs Redboots]

Is there a dance class at your rink she could enter? Otherwise, perhaps she would enjoy dance lessons with one of the pros, maybe more than free skating at this stage? I'm convinced young skaters should do both disciplines, but no harm in starting on one and adding the other in later.

[Lmarletto]

Is there a dance class at your rink she could enter? Otherwise, perhaps she would enjoy dance lessons with one of the pros, maybe more than free skating at this stage? I'm convinced young skaters should do both disciplines, but no harm in starting on one and adding the other in later.
She has pretty nice front crossovers and edges, decent back crossovers and shaky 3-turns, mohawks and back edges, so in terms of her skills, she's not quite ready for dance - or at least that's what people who have seen her skate tell me. She tells me differently. :lol: You can be sure though that as soon as she's ready, I will offer her the option. In the mean time, I'm liking the idea of a coach who can make her lessons as dancy as possible.

[Mrs Redboots]

I have to admit that I disagree about readiness for dance - the first few dances are forwards-only, so 3-turns and Mohawks are unnecessary. As soon as you can do a crossover and hold a forward edge reliably you are ready to learn a few dances - which is not to say that you are able to do them well! But then, I've been working on the basic dances for nearly 10 years and still do them badly on occasion.

[twokidsskatemom]

I dont know. She is only 6 and even if she went into dance, she still has to have the internal motivation to practice herself and get better even with just basic stroking.IF she has skated for 2 or 3 years and is basic 4, right now she isnt motivated enough. That doesnt mean she will not be next year.
Its sounds like at least for now, she would rather just skate and make friends and have fun. Nothing wrong with that at all.
My dd is so different than yours, just like all kids are different.My dd practice to get better for herself by herself most days and her motivation is just to get better .For herself, not her coach or us.She doesnt look at it as a social thing, but as a passion she has for skating.She knows to get a better jump she has to have great backwards stroking and crossovers so she spends time making them better. She knows to have a better sit spin, it helps to work on her shoot the duck.She knows to do her double salcow, she has to have a great landing on her singles.
Your dd is young, maybe ina few months she will change her mindset.when she is ready to be more, she will let you know. :)

[Lmarletto]

I have to admit that I disagree about readiness for dance - the first few dances are forwards-only, so 3-turns and Mohawks are unnecessary. As soon as you can do a crossover and hold a forward edge reliably you are ready to learn a few dances - which is not to say that you are able to do them well!
I didn't realize that. Maybe I'm ready for dance lessons. :lol:

My dd is so different than yours, just like all kids are different.My dd practice to get better for herself by herself most days and her motivation is just to get better .For herself, not her coach or us.

Your dd is young, maybe ina few months she will change her mindset.when she is ready to be more, she will let you know.
There are a couple of very young kids here who practice every day on a freestyle session. If it wasn't for their size you would swear they were 10 years older, the way they act on the ice. I've spoken with the mother of one of them quite a few times and she says she has no idea where his drive comes from, none of her other kids are like that. It's fascinating how kids come into this world with their own personalities. As long as my daughter gets what she wants out of her activities, I'm happy.

[twokidsskatemom]

I didn't realize that. Maybe I'm ready for dance lessons. :lol:




There are a couple of very young kids here who practice every day on a freestyle session. If it wasn't for their size you would swear they were 10 years older, the way they act on the ice. I've spoken with the mother of one of them quite a few times and she says she has no idea where his drive comes from, none of her other kids are like that. It's fascinating how kids come into this world with their own personalities. As long as my daughter gets what she wants out of her activities, I'm happy.

I think that is a great way to look at it.
My dd sometimes skates with a girl who is 6 next month. My dd was 5 the end of may. The other girl wants to be like my dd but isnt putting the effort into it.She is off ice more than on but her mom is pushing her to be like my dd.I tell people its not like we made my dd be the way she is.... she just is kwim?This other girl follows my dd all over the place on the ice and my dd asked her to stop it. The other girl stuck her tongue out at her :cry:
Its hard to skate with this little girl but we are trying the best we can to be nice.Noone should be jelous at this stage of the game.

[WeBeEducated]

Coaches in group lessons really do respond to kids with potential talent and offer advice and lessons to their parents. It is a good way for coaches to increase private lessons, to acquaint parents with the pro's qualifications, and to enhance the noticed child's desire for progress.
Just about every skater who is famous today started with group lessons and probably were encouraged to try private.
Nothing offensive or unprofessional about it!
Coaches have to sell their program and themselves to the public.

[luna_skater]

As long as she's having fun, keep going with what works! :) I have been skating since I was 6, but didn't REALLY start to enjoy it until I started synchro when I was 11. I had no motivation to work on skills by myself. Synchro (it was "precision" then) was a godsend. I'm 24 now and am still a competitive synchro skater. If your daughter really enjoys synchro, then you can encourage her to work on her own skating in order to help her synchro skills and be able to keep skating with her friends as they get older and better. I started doing dance and skills a year and a half ago, right up from the bottom with Prelim. I work my butt off (1) because I enjoy it now and understand the concept of personal motivation moreso than when I was younger, and (2) to improve my skills for synchro. Synchro teams in Canada and the USA now require that skaters meet certain test criteria. In Canada, skaters can fulfill this with dance, skills, freeskate, or interpretive, and in the USA skaters need to pass moves in the field tests. Make sure she's having fun, and if she seems to really stay interested in synchro and be good at it, then she will have some motivation to make private lessons worthwhile.

[kayskate]

I teach groups parttime. The skating director encourages us to suggest a private lesson if a child is falling behind or missing classes. I have never done this b/c I have a fulltime job an no time to take on privates. Parents have approached me for privates and I have referred them to the skating school. Many of the FT coaches get privates from the groups. IMO, your child's group instructor might be the one to suggest privates especially if he/she is a FT coach. If you like your child's group instructor, you might ask if s/he teaches privates when you are interested or ask other parents about coaches they recommend. Sometimes a group instructor might be less expensive for privates than a coach w/ a long resume. If you child is a beginner, this can save you a lot of $ and you will still get appropriate instruction for the child's level.

Kay

[fadedstardust]

I think everyone has given great advice, the only thing I'd add is that I have known quite a few (though it's hardly a majority, but it does happen) group instructors who knew their basics well, but not freestyle- at least not enough to mold someone and teach them in a private setting- you really have to know what you are talking about, and SOME group instructors at SOME rinks don't, so do be careful and make sure the coach you are considering has good knowledge and some experience (preferably a PSA rating/certification) because I will tell you one thing- my first two coaches were NOT qualified to be teaching me when I was younger and I'm still paying for that bad training now. Bad habits die VERY hard- especially those single jumps in freestyle, and it's not worth it to save a few dollars if you're not sure the coach is a good one because you'll waste twice as much as you saved to fix all the problems that were taught by that person later on. Good luck!

[Lmarletto]

Thanks for all the advice. We are fortunate that many of the group lesson instructors around here have pretty substantial resumes, some former Olympians and many with Nat'l or Jr. Nat'l coaching experience. I don't know if they do it because they have some sort of contractual obligation to the rinks or because they enjoy the diversion. Even so, making a choice seems like a big responsibility...I don't plan to rush into it.