Fundraising for skater - again!!

[Aussie Willy]

I posted something a while ago about this where a coach is fundraising for her daughter's skating at our rink which most people were getting really peeved about it.

She hasn't done it for a while, but she is at it again. This time she is selling fundraising chocolates. What is really annoying me is that I think I have unwittingly brought two of these chocolates thinking they were for our Wednesday Ladies Skating Group and a kid's school (I just look at chocolate and my mouth drools and I am very happy to support any organisation who needs it). However this morning I saw this coach handing a box of chocolates to one of her students which pricked my ears up as to what is going on because the kid I brought the chocolates off is one of her students. And when I asked another coach about it she confirmed to me what I suspected.

What is really annoying me is that I basically cannot afford to pay for lessons for myself but I have now supported someone else's kids skating. Also she is getting her students to sell chocolates for her kid which I really object to. You can say that it is up to the kids if they want to do it or not, but knowing the coach she would not have taken a refusal to sell as a answer because she can be incredibly persuasive.

I will be speaking to someone from the club committee about it later, but I wondering if I should speak to the coach and ask for my money back on at least one of the chocolates (I ate the other one). It might cause some bad blood to do this, but in principle she should not be fundraising on the back of other skaters and asking for money from people who need to pay for their own skating.

[Terri C]

Aussie,
I'd get the ISA on this immedately! Has anything been said to them in the past?

[AshBugg44]

Do they tell you that it's for a different organization when they sell it to you, or do they say that it's for the child's skating?

[angelskates]

I would be formally informing the state association and ISA at this point. There is an either spoken or unspoken rule at rinks that says you don't do individual fundraising there. It either goes to clubs, the National Team from your state, the state association, group things. If one skater can do it, they all could and that would be awful. Aussie, you should start fundraising to get yourself some lessons!!

Why can't they go through the child's school/church/friends etc? It's really bad form, and even worse that the offender is a coach. Do the students or parents know their effort is going to another skater?

Like Terri C said, I would be writing a formal letter to ISA and sending a copy of that letter to the state assciation (as I remember they have already been informed once?). Also I would be trying to get support from other members of clubs or their parents and other coaches.

Does your association or club have any written policy? You might want to grab a copy if you can and see if anything is written in it about this. I would be trying to get something added if it's not already. Bring it up at the club/association meeting.

[Aussie Willy]

Thanks for the feedback guys. You have definately given me food for thought. Maybe speaking to the professionals association might be another avenue. I might write to ISA and ask them what they think.

In answer to AshBugg44's question, at the time they did not say what it was for. I just thought it was for a couple of groups and made the comment that I thought it was for the ladies group or a kid's school and I would be happy to support them. However the people selling did not correct me or make the effort to tell me the real reason. They were just really keen to get the money.

And I found out tonight that she had been going to all the women in the Wednesday Morning Ladies Group (not just the one who sold the chocolate to me) and asking them to sell chocolates on her behalf too. So she is not just getting her students, she is going a bit further afield in her efforts.

I have been speaking to quite a few others about it to and they are getting really annoyed. What has also happened is the club are letting her use their name to help her get the chocolates but saying only for selling outside the rink. She is really abusing the priviledge of what they have allowed her to do.

Again thanks for the advice.

[angelskates]

Aussie, why is the club letting her use their name if the proceeds aren't going to the club ? That seems really unfair to all the other members of the club.

[Aussie Willy]

Angelskates - I think the club thought she would only do the fundraising outside the rink. They have been proven wrong. She does get a discount on the chocolate by using a club's name (it is the Cadbury's fundraising chocolate). The club was just being nice to help her out but they will never do anything to help her again after this. In fact we have some training sessions coming up which she was not asked to run because of what she has done lately and she got all upset about it (which I have very little sympathy for).

The more I think about it the more unethical I am finding the whole thing. She is really abusing her position as a coach by getting her students to sell chocolates on her behalf. She is not just a parent, she is a coach and she certainly should know better.

BTW - for your information, this particular coach charges her students for lessons that SHE does not show up for. A few of the coaches do take money for lessons in advance. So what happens is she won't be there for a lesson, says she will make it up and then conveniently forgets that she didn't do the lesson.

[AshBugg44]

There is an either spoken or unspoken rule at rinks that says you don't do individual fundraising there. It either goes to clubs, the National Team from your state, the state association, group things. If one skater can do it, they all could and that would be awful.

Well, here, skaters do individual fundraising all the time, like selling cookie dough and cheesecakes. It's never been a problem. I myself sold products to raise money to compete in San Francisco.

[fadedstardust]

Am I totally missing something? What's the problem with it??? Skating is EXPENSIVE, what's the harm in selling chocolates? Did you ask what it was for, and did she lie? If she didn't, and you bought and ate the chocolates and they didn't poison you, then where is the problem? I mean, the two boxes of chocolates really won't make much difference in your lesson money in the long run, but the 100 this girl and her coach sells might help the girl skate, isn't that something? Should the poor girl just quit cause she can't afford this sport? She's making an effort to raise money and her coach is dedicated enough to help, I think that's great. No one made you buy the chocolates, if you didn't want to eat any chocolates, you didn't have to buy any, and no one else who is annoyed has to either, but, if people are gonna buy chocolates from a store, why not buy it from one of your fellow skaters who is struggling with money instead? Sure seems like a better buy. Even if I were struggling with money myself, I definitely wouldn't find it a waste to give up a little money to help someone else. It's like...if I have a dollar and I can buy a pack of gum or give it to a kid who wants a piece of candy but his parents are too poor to buy it for him, how can I not buy it for him? Who cares about one lousy pack of gum? Doesn't affect my day as much as that kid's. Just my thoughts.

[TashaKat]

Am I totally missing something? What's the problem with it??? Skating is EXPENSIVE, what's the harm in selling chocolates? Did you ask what it was for, and did she lie? If she didn't, and you bought and ate the chocolates and they didn't poison you, then where is the problem? I mean, the two boxes of chocolates really won't make much difference in your lesson money in the long run, but the 100 this girl and her coach sells might help the girl skate, isn't that something? Should the poor girl just quit cause she can't afford this sport? She's making an effort to raise money and her coach is dedicated enough to help, I think that's great.

Hi :) It's not as simple as it sounds ..... I can't find the other thread but it's worth a read if someone has the link as it will give you the background to Aussy Willy's concerns. The coach isn't raising funds for her SKATER, she is raising funds for her DAUGHTER and in direct competition at times to fundraising that is done by the club for all of the skaters (I have that right don't I?). She is also using the club name to get things which are not being used for the benefit of the club. The way she is doing things is underhand and, although they are not actually lying to raise funds they are certainly not being straight up.

I think that she is behaving in a completely unethical manner and would certainly raise it at the committee meeting and definitely contact Cadbury's with the full picture! Even if I didn't get my money back I would certainly make a point of giving the chocolate back if only on principle.

All the best


x

[robertp]

I would have a problem with a coach setting up a fund raising program within the rink for their own child. Too much unspoken pressure to comply. I know skating is expensive...but, there are ways of raising funds... called jobs, that young skaters can do to raise money rather than a fund raising campaign.

Here are a few suggestions...baby sitting, paper routes, lawn work, cleaning houses, etc. Having your skater help with the funding in this way can help them to appreciate the sacrifices a family makes to afford skating. I would make this suggestion to the coach and see what happens. Hopefully the coach will catch the hint, that the fundraising is not appropriate. If not, follow the advice and get the authorities to stop if the bylaws restrict it. (If not, get on the by laws commitee and change the by laws!)

[fadedstardust]

I'd like to read the other thread if someone has the link to it! I guess I don't have the whole story, so for the meantime disregard my earlier post. :)

[Aussie Willy]

Fadedstardust - I think you did jump the gun in your response. If you read my first post you might have seen that I don't have a problem with her fundraising in general outside the rink - she can do what she likes. However I do have a problem with her trying to raise money from people in the same sport where it all costs us money. I can barely afford lessons myself (in fact I go without most of the time), so why should I contribute to pay for someone else's kid? And as for the line about the poor kid giving up skating because she can't afford it, well boo hoo - we are all the same boat. She is no more special or different from any other skater at the rink. And really the kid doesn't have to pay for coaching because her mother does it so there are no coaching fees involved.

As for the chocolate, I was sold two blocks without knowing what it was for because the people who sold it to me did not tell me. I only realised once I saw this coach giving one of her students a box to sell what had happened and that the people selling had misrepresented the fundraising.

The coach is abusing her position by getting her students and others to sell for her. No other skaters or parents do this. Any fundraising we do at the rink is to benefit skating as a whole, no one skater in particular. So there is a clash with fundraising. And quite a few have refused to sell the chocolates for her because of similar views to my own.

Last year when this coach was doing her fundraising, the money was being used for her to go to Canada and train. If she was going to represent Australia at an international competition then I would not mind helping out. But it was her choice to go to Canada, she did not have to do it. Hey my friend who wants to go the next Gay Games would not expect the rink to support him because he acknowledges that it is his decision to do it, no one is expecting him.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but what she is doing is totally unethical and just annoying lots of people at the rink.

[nja]

I'm a little surprised that this coach's other skaters are assisting in this facade. Are they getting some sort of kickback? After all, skating is just as expensive for them as it is for the coach's daughter.

We had a situation in our area of a mother who sent an article to one of the local newspapers asking for money to support her daughter's Olympic dreams. The daughter was 17 years old and a weak Juvenile-level skater at best. She was also a somewhat dangerous skater who skated very fast without a lot of control. In fact, shortly after the article came out, she was the cause of a very serious accident that resulted in a skull fracture to another skater. I also understand that she was involved in another injury incident at another rink that resulted in a lawsuit.

I don't know if this family every received any money from their article, but I would hope that anyone interested in supporting a skater (or anyone for that matter) in a cause checks it out before dipping into the pocketbook.

[iceygold]

Neither the ISA or ISV have any authority to stop the fundraising. If this person is a member of a club you need to look at the clubs policies on fundraising to see if there is anything that prohits what they are doing.

ISA is the National Federation and they do not handle these types of problems, nor should they. Can you see someone writing to the USFSA or Skate Canada about one single little skater who is doing some fundraising that some people do not agree with. Obviously the coach has the rinks permission.

I do not see anything wrong with what they are doing provided they have the rinks permission. Skating is an expensive sport. People won't support the fundraising if they don't want to.

There are so few skaters in Victoria I would have thought most people would be very supportive of the young skaters. Often going overseas to train is the only option to improve and I don't see anything wrong with fundraising for those purposes.

Australian skating standards are low enough already! If some of the good skaters can be exposed to the higher calibre skater by training overseas, they should try to obtain that by whatever means they can.

[dbny]

ISA is the National Federation and they do not handle these types of problems, nor should they. Can you see someone writing to the USFSA or Skate Canada about one single little skater who is doing some fundraising that some people do not agree with. Obviously the coach has the rinks permission.

I do not see anything wrong with what they are doing provided they have the rinks permission. Skating is an expensive sport. People won't support the fundraising if they don't want to.


Well, I totally disagree. If a national federation cannot have a say in the ethical behavior of their members, who should? This is not "one single little skater" doing some fundraising. This is a coach fundraising for her own daughter. A coach is a person with some authority considerable influence over the progress of his/her students. A coach who uses their position to fundraise for her own family is in a serious breach of ethics.

I see nothing obvious here about a rink's permission. There has been no mention of that.

Do Australian coaches have their own association like the PSA? If so, that would be one place to look for ethical guidelines and another possible place to file a complaint.

[TashaKat]

I'm a little surprised that this coach's other skaters are assisting in this facade. Are they getting some sort of kickback? After all, skating is just as expensive for them as it is for the coach's daughter.


I don't think that you can put any blame onto the other skaters here, the coach/pupil bond can be quite strong and they may feel that they're 'doing good' by their coach. I doubt very much whether they are getting kickbacks. There is always the element of wanting to please which I suspect is why at least some of them are helping out.

iceygold - I can only echo what I said before and what dbny has said. Maybe you have a vested interest in the fundraising for this skater?

From what Aussy Willie has said:


There is no mention that the rink have agreed to let her canvass people in this way (if they have agreed then they are condoning this unethical behaviour)
The daughter doesn't have to pay for her lessons so is already at an advantage from the other skaters
The daughter isn't a high flyer who is the top skater at the rink or anything so why should it be HER that is sent abroad? If the mother wants to send her abroad then let her dig into her own purse and not expect everyone else to pay for her!
The coach is fundraising in direct oppostion to the club .... not the nicest of things to do :roll: She has to be pretty thick skinned to be so blatant about it :evil:
The coach is using the club's name to get the damn chocolate in the first place ..... I seriously suggest, AW, that the providers are contacted and appraised of the situation!

[Aussie Willy]

Iceygold - may I ask what is your involvement? You seem to speaking for ISA on the issue.

Tashakat has actually summed up what I have been saying very well - thanks!! The opinions I am expressing are not just mine. The coach in question is peeving off many people and people are getting very resentful about being asked to sell chocolates to help this person's kid. This also includes other coaches and many other skaters. In fact one of the coaches who is not heavily involved in club business when told about this said "Well why doesn't she get a job?"

And from my perspective I think it is unethical to be dipping into funds that people could use for their own kids or their own skating. I have no problem with her doing fundraising - but outside the rink!!! She can seek sponsors, she can try to get grants, there is a lot she can do and she has had people give her plenty of suggestions. But don't ask the other skaters to support her financially when it probably cost them enough money to do the sport.

BTW - what I haven't said that she has done this fundraising in direct conflict with the club at club events. At one of our interstate competitions she actually had a prize and raffle tickets next to the club's raffle prizes - even though she was told she was not allowed to do it.

As for the rink - I don't think they particularly care what is going on but I am sure they know about it. But from my perspective I don't have a problem with the what the rink thinks or if they support her doing it. The rink are very generous with giving of ice time and supporting skaters in various ways. But that is for all skaters, not just a few chosen ones. But when it comes down to it it is the coaches behaviour that is in question, not the rink. Hey if the rink hadn't let her do it, she would still do it behind their backs.

As I said I can barely afford lessons myself and generally I have to coach myself and choreograph my own programmes because I can't afford a coach. So when I have insidiously been asked to give money to help another skater of course I am really angry. I don't have a problem with fundraising for group efforts. We are currently raising money for a jumps harness that will benefit everyone, not just one person.

And as for supporting skaters, I am very supportive of all our skaters. I encourage them, put their music on for them, help them if I can with their jumps and spins and wish them all the best when they compete. But that is all the skaters. I do not favour one skater over another. And my opinion about the fundraising is the same for all skaters. No skater should fundraise at the rink full stop.

[nja]

AW stated: BTW - what I haven't said that she has done this fundraising in direct conflict with the club at club events. At one of our interstate competitions she actually had a prize and raffle tickets next to the club's raffle prizes - even though she was told she was not allowed to do it.


AW, Just a suggestion....I don't know what the laws are by you, but in some places holding a raffle without some type of permit or license is illegal. I don't know how far you want to go with this, but you might think about checking it out. Good luck!!

[iceygold]

Aussie Willy. I am not the ISA!!!!!!! However I was involved with ISA until fairly recently. In reply to the other poster who may feel I have a vested interest in this skater is absolute rubbish. I know of the skater and coach you are talking about however. I do not live in Victoria people!!!

I do know about the policies of the ISA and that is why I can tell you that it is not an ISA matter.

I did ask about the clubs fundraising policy but no one can answer that

[iceygold]

My suggestion is to find out what the clubs fundraising policy is first and then take the matter up with rink management.

My point was that I did not see anything from with fundraising for this skater to go overseas provided they adhered to the clubs policy but no one to date has been able to advise in this forum what the policy is.

[iceygold]

DBNY. A National Federation does not get involved in club politics. Australia has a Professional Skaters Association so any complaint about a coach goes through that association - not the ISA.

I suggest you read APSA's consitution and policies in relation to coaching ethics prior to making any complaint about a coach.

[dbny]

I suggest you read APSA's consitution and policies in relation to coaching ethics prior to making any complaint about a coach.

I have no complaints with any coaches where I am, and am familiar with the PSA's ethics policies, as I am a member, which is why I suggested AW should look into the Australian organization.

[Aussie Willy]

Iceygold - thanks for clarifying. However I think you asked about the rink's policy, not the club's. The club has a policy that no one skater is favoured over others in terms of fundraising, whether it be by the club, a parent or a coach. This policy was developed after the problems we had with this coach last year. I am not on the committee myself but I do a lot for the club in terms of helping with activities and fundraising myself - generally doing things for all skaters, not just a couple.

Hey it doesn't hurt to ask the National or State association what their policy in relation to this issue is. If they have no opinion then so be it. I am not criticising them if they don't have an opinion. However I think it is something that the associations do need to take into consideration because even though it is only one skater, this particular coach is setting a precedent that others could follow and then it will become a fundraising free-for-all.

NJA - we have investigated about raffles. Only if you are selling a certain number of tickets (generally in the thousands) do you need to get a permit.

[iceygold]

Aussie Willy, you are right I think I might have only mentioned rink policy, definately investigate the club policy. If the club does not have an actual fundraising policy there is probably not a lot you can do for now but then you could investigate getting a fundraising policy into place. Check out the ISAQ website at www.isaq.org.au for its policies to give you an idea. They generally simple one page policies.

It should stop any angst towards skaters, coaches, parents etc if the club had a policy.

Just to clarify something about ISA, as per its constitution the State Associations are the Members of ISA, not the individuals of the state associations - probably does not make much sense the way I have written it but it is the case. I would also like to give everyone a little backgroud in relation to ISA as people often criticise National Federations (not only Australia but other Federations). That is always why I am a little defensive when I read people stating, get the National Federation to do something about it.

The workload of the ISA is tremendous. Think of being a club committee member and then increase that by 500% and that may give you an idea of the workload. ISA is responsible to the Australian Sports Commission, Australian Olympic Committee, Australian Sports Drug Agency & International Skating Union. ISA also work with the Olympic Winter Institute on figure skating programs. ISA are responsible for the rules and regulations that govern our wonderful sport in Australia, international selections, organisation of National championships, sending of skaters and sys teams to international competitions, world championships and olympic games, organising ISU seminars, world anti-doping code controls & AGM's. The reporting compliance requirements are enormous. There are simply not enough persons to spread the workload around, particularly at the present time as the office has been reduced to part-time.

Unlike the larger Federations i.e. Skate Canada, USFSA who have so many people to manage the workload (a lot of them paid at that too). There is only one paid part-time administrator in Australia and the others a dedicated people who love this sport dearly. Their dedication to the running of the sport is enormous.

I think some of you could forgive me if I was a little annoyed about contacting ISA over a skater's fundraising but I do have first hand knowledge of the National Federation. Aussie Willy, I was in fact the Administration Director & Anti Doping Control Officer for five years. I have found over those many years that the average person who skates, is a club member etc has no real idea of what goes on behind the scenes to keep the sport running and hopefully being able to achieve great results for Australia.

[Aussie Willy]

Iceygold - I am not sure if you read my last post or maybe you were posting at the same time. In my last post I did talk about the club policy which was instigated last year (because of this coach) and have outlined what our club policy is - that is there is definately no fundraising to be done to the benefit of one skater. All fundraising is done for the benefit of all skaters.

The saddest thing about it is that generally our skating community is quite happy and gets on well. It is not very pleasant to have this kind of thing which is peeving so many people off and is causing problems.

Iceygold - If you want to email me privately about this, I am happy to discuss off the forum. Just contact me on kwillyau@ozemail.com.au.

[nja]

AW, Just a thought......if this one coach can do this, what's to stop anyone else from the same thing? How would the club react if, say, 10 or 20 or 50 individual skaters approached them wanting to purchase candy using the club discount and then selling it for personal profit. If others were turned away, how can they justify allowing just this one person to do it?

[Aussie Willy]

The running joke at our rink from the skaters themselves is "well I might just start fundraising for myself seeing (coach) is doing it". Even the ones who will never get to national level say it as a joke.

Seriously it is setting a dangrous precedent. And is causing friction throughout our little skating community.

[tazsk8s]

The running joke at our rink from the skaters themselves is "well I might just start fundraising for myself seeing (coach) is doing it". Even the ones who will never get to national level say it as a joke.

Seriously it is setting a dangrous precedent. And is causing friction throughout our little skating community.

I have been following this whole tale since the original post some months ago. I'd think the club would have a thing or two to say about this coach using their name to obtain something for her kid's own personal benefit and not the benefit of the club. Not sure how things work there, but when my daughter used to belong to the competition team at her former dance studio, we had to go through all sorts of hoops to do fundraising for the team. Legally, the team wasn't set up as its' own separate corporate entity (doing so would have cost money, which we didn't have much of), and a lot of the standard fundraisers required a non-profit ID number in order to even participate in their programs. We couldn't use the studio's ID because they were for-profit. Getting this stuff to fundraise as an individual was all but impossible (and not smart if the IRS ever caught wind of it!).

I'm not a grinch - I'm perfectly happy to make a small purchase to help kids' sports teams, music programs, school stuff, whatever. And I had no qualms about dragging a case of chocolate to work recently to sell for my daughter's school marching band. But I have a hard enough time paying our own skating bills. Unless the individual skater doing the fundraising had some fairly high-level successes (not the case here as I understand it), I'd be pretty offended to be asked to help pay someone else's bills, too. I certainly wouldn't dream of ever asking someone else to pay ours!

[Aussie Willy]

Just adding more to this thread to update on the latest.

She is now having a garage sale at the rink and getting others to donate goods to sell to raise funds. It is being done at the car park of the rink. Funny thing is the notice that is up at the rink starts off with "Supporters of (skater)" and basically says the fundraising is to help the kid go back to Canada again to train. Unfortunately it is only going to polarise and peeve a lot of people off again. This kid is no more special than any other skater at our rink. :roll:

Why do it at the rink? Why not do it at her home like a lot of people do with garage sales? At least if it was done away from the rink it is not going to get people's back's up but this is just going to add more fuel to the anti-skater and coach antagonism which is currently happening.

Gee if only someone would pay for me to go and train overseas!!!

I also found out recently that when she was running her raffle earlier in the year, this coach was actively encouraging people not to buy our tickets and buy her own daughters in front of the people who were selling our tickets!!! I just couldn't believe it!!

[nja]

AW, Since it appears that a lot of people are pretty upset by this coach's activities, maybe it would make an impression on the rink/club leadership if these people were to express their feelings as a group. When complaints come in onesy, twosy, sometimes it makes people look more like whiners, especially when it is the same people complaining all the time. Maybe a petition or a group attending the next board meeting would get some attention. Not sure if you have the option to go elsewhere, but since the rink/club appears to not want to do anything about the situation, even when this coach's actions are to their detriment, then maybe that should be considered.

Whatever, this coach seems to have no shame. While it is nice that she wants to provide these opportunities for her daughter, she seems to be going about it in the wrong way. I wonder how her daughter feels about all this.

Just thought of one other thing.....I'm in the USA, so I don't know Australian law, but I believe a not-for-profit organization usually has some type of tax exemption. If this coach is using the club to purchase her candy, she may not be paying tax on the purchase. However, the proceeds from her sales are for her personal profit, and it doesn't sound like the club receives any of the proceeds. Not sure, but could this be construed as tax fraud? You may want to bring this point up to the rink/club management as they could also get in trouble if there were an issue.

[fadedstardust]

What level is the skater at, anyways? Perhaps someone should advise this coach/mom that if she already has to do fundraisers and garage sales to keep her kid skating, there's gonna be a day when there's nothing left to sell. This is a SUPER expensive sport and if when your kid is 13 you're already selling off everything you own, at some point you're gonna run out of money. Perhaps she should venture into more profitable, less annoying, and more long term solutions, like a sponsor (if the kid is good) a second job, or something along those lines. It's one thing to do a fundraiser for a certain competition or something, but if she's constantly doing this...it's gonna eventually run out. Pointless.

[Aussie Willy]

nja - only certain groups can apply for tax deductible status. Generally not sporting clubs, however there are schemes that can help with fundraising for certain projects but it is a very complicated process. So basically we don't qualify for tax deductible status.

As for the kid's skating level, she is novice level (here in Australia) and basically has all her double jumps. In my honest opinion though, I don't think she has the potential to be an international competitor - her jumps rotate quickly but they barely leave the ice and they have been like that for a few years now. I have heard from others that the mother plans to take the kid out of school when she is 16 so she can concentrate on skating solely (she is 14 now). That is such a bad move because what will the kid have to fall back on if she doesn't succeed?

You are right about fundraising fatigue. In discussing about fundraising with one of our committee members, she is very conscious of the fact that you cannot keep asking people for money, even for things that benefit all skaters. We have had quite a few fundraising activities over the last couple of years (like video and trivia nights) which is aimed at getting a jumps harness but have decided to ease off for this reason.