question about coaching

[gregyoshi]

Is it possible to coach in the "learn to skate" area without having PSA cert? I mean...I know it's done but do rinks frown on it or is it widely accepted? Can I just decide one day I want to coach and do it independently, or should you be "on staff" at the rink? Sorry if I sound stupid but I just want to do things the right way and due to all the politics (gossip) at my rink, I don't want to ask around because I might be brought into a loop that I don't want to be a part of. I like to lay low, work my butt off and not tick anyone off. I realize you're not supposed to ask people if they want to be coached.. but if one day someone says "Hey, could you teach me," I want to do the right thing. Thanks much for any advice and I'm sorry if it's been asked before. Greg

[kisscid]

I believe every rink has it's own policy. However I think for most rinks the "learn to skate" program is usually coached by staff members . I have seen other coaches form other rinks come in to our rink every now and then, and we have one little girl who is coached by her father, but all of the skaters are beyond the learn to skate program. I have skated at another rink that in order to give any coaching you must be a staff member, no exceptions. I think you'll have to find a away to subtley ask around your rink.
Cid

[dbny]

I realize you're not supposed to ask people if they want to be coached.. but if one day someone says "Hey, could you teach me," I want to do the right thing.

Be extremely careful. One rink I work at has a very strict policy that only staff members may pick up private lessons from the public sessions, anyone else must refer potential students to the skating school office. I've seen people banned from a rink for teaching someone they met on a public session.

Every rink/school has its own policies. None of the three rinks I work at require PSA membership, but they all do require coaching insurance. One way to get involved would be to volunteer to help (you would still need the insurance).

[icedancer2]

I agree with what's posted here, but you might want to ask your own coach for help in getting started. My coach wants to retire someday and has been working for years getting new coaches trained (informally, by her, probably the "old-fashioned" way) so that she can someday retire.

It may definitely be different from rink to rink and there are always those weird rink-politics, but you might want to get referrals from your coach.

[dbny]

you might want to ask your own coach for help in getting started. ... but you might want to get referrals from your coach.

Excellent idea. I had forgotten that I got my start when my coach, who knew I wanted to teach, recommended me for the office side of a new skating school being started by a coach I hardly knew. That coach saw all the little kids clustered around me and started me teaching Snowplow Sam.

[CanAmSk8ter]

I agree with what's been said so far. Definitely don't just start teaching someone who asks you for lessons. Every rink I've taught at/looked into teaching at is very strict about anyone teaching having to have an up-to-date insurance certificate filed at the rink. The rinks where I've taught don't require PSA membership, but I'm sure some probably do. I know of one training center that has a big summer program, with coaches bringing students from out-of-town, and they require any guest coaches bringing students to be PSA members. Some rinks charge commission on privates taught on their ice; this may vary for coaches who teach a certain number of hours, have had students at nationals, teach learn-to-skate, etc. Your best bet is probably to mention to your coach that you'd like to try teaching or helping with learn-to-skate and see what he/she tells you as far as these kinds of requirements at your rink. Some rinks also require learn-to-skate teachers/helpers to have passed certain tests themselves (usually nothing too high) and like others have said you will probably have to have insurance even to be a helper if you receive payment of any kind.

ETA: good luck! I started helping my coach with her learn-to-skate classes when I was 13, and started teaching on my own as soon as I turned 18. It's a blast! There are days I can't believe they're paying me to do it. Of course there are also days I don't think they're paying me nearly enough; ) but those aren't very common!

[fadedstardust]

Wow, most rinks I've skated at (New England region) say in their ice contracts "guest coaches welcome", you just have to pay the freestyle fee to be on that ice. I think getting banned for coaching without being on staff is RIDICULOUS. So totalitarian. As long as the coach makes it clear he/she is not affiliated with the skating club residing in any said rink, I can't believe they would forbid people to coach. Not on club ice, that I understand, but on regular freestyles or publics.

I've taught Learn to Skate. I'm not a member of PSA. Some rinks have Learn to Skate and Basic Skills taught by their top staff, some have their better skaters do it. All in all, as long as the teachers are good at explaining, have good basics, and like working with beginners, I don't see much difference. Many skaters teach group classes, and most elite skaters coach on the side for extra money- none are members of the PSA, that would make them professionals. I guess it depends on where you want to coach.

[icedancer2]

It's true that the system seems to be different in New England and that is especially true I think with competitors who are teaching privates to make money (and get experience). It is a lot less totalitarian than a lot of places, like where I live now (Portland, OR) there seem to be a LOT of turf wars and it is relatively expensive to teach at the local rinks (something like $250/month the coaches have to pay for their ice time).

It's restrictive and doesn't allow for growth at all within the skating community.

Good luck with the teaching possibilities!!

[kayskate]

I teach LtS. I had to get insurance to do it, so I joined PSA. I am an employee of the rink and am on their payroll. I am not an independent contractor. I really love it and earn great extra money plus some free ice time! However, I do not teach privates, though I could if I wanted to, according to the skating director. I simply do not have time b/c I have a fulltime job too.

Kay

[backspin]

At my rink, we're required to teach at least 1 LTS class per session in order to be allowed to teach privates. Coaches who don't want to teach group classes must pay a yearly fee to be allowed to coach privates. Anyone teaching private lessons must have a certificate of insurance filed w/ the rink.

You're going to have to have a talk w/ the rink manager, or skating school director, or whoever oversees the coaches.

[Blosmbubbs]

I was teaching at a rink for 2 years, and it closed down in April. I started out helping my current coach with her classes. Now, I still haven't gotten hired to teach at the other rink which opened in 1994. I don't know what to do, cause they told me they didn't need anymore instructors. I can't even teach my privates there. I have much more experience in skating than most there. :frus:

[Isk8NYC]

I think that every rink has different policies. Here are the rules at the rinks I teach at:

Generally, to be considered "Staff," you have to be a LTS group lesson instructor at least one day a week. We're paid by the half-hour, which is the length of our classes. Realize that we spend time before and after classes talking to parents and students, but are not paid for that time.

LTS instructors are Independent Contractors, so no benefits. Don't teach, don't get paid. We get a "paycheck," but it's for the full dollar amount with no taxes deducted. We have to pay estimated taxes if it's a lot of money.


All instructors have to register in the Office and provide the Director with a copy of their current, in force, liability insurance policy. (Which we pay for on our own.)

All instructors are welcome to teach privates on freestyle and general sessions. (With proper registration and insurance) Senior instructors set their own rates. Most Staff instructors try to stay at the same rate per hour, so there's less competition and politics. (Oh, change to Barbara! She's $5 less each lesson!) A good Director manages this well. Outside instructors set their own rates and bring their own students.

One rink charges Instructors a $10 admission fee to teach on a session. If you know you'll be teaching for the full time, it's an okay deal. It sucks if you're only teaching one half-hour private. It's also unique in this area: most rinks work off of a commission percentage.

At all of the other rinks I work at Staff instructors pay a commission fee of 10% to the rink, and you can run up a "tab" to pay at the end of the month, week, etc. Outside instructors pay 20% at the end of the day before they leave. (Usually in cash) You write down the students' name and the length of the lesson. Generally, instructors don't pay admission fee at these rinks.

You're really not supposed to take students from one rink to skate at another. I overheard a rink manager giving a brow-beating to an instructor one day. (The instructor teaches in five different rinks in any given day.) He was accused of "stealing" students and causing the rink to lose freestyle revenue, but he explained something and everybody was happy.

I was interested in the conversation because I have three kids that are NOT skating now and the parents want them to take lessons from me at a rink near their house. I'm not on staff there, so I've been exploring the opportunity to see if it's worth the effort.

Good luck. The best time to get into the LTS Group setting is by volunteering to assist early in the season. Then, at midseason, when they need an instructor because the program has a ton of students, they'll turn to you to help teach. It seems to happen most often after the Olympics, which is how I returned to teaching after a five-year absence.

[Isk8NYC]

BTW, to get an "in" with the rink, it isn't always WHAT you know, but WHO you know. Be nice to everyone and stay out of the gossip net. At every rink I've taught at, I was asked because the Director or a Senior Instructor knew who I was and wanted me to be part of their staff. Present yourself well, dress like an instructor, and people will come to see you as one.

Also, read the boring trade articles in the skating magazines and business sections of newspapers. (It helps to be an ISI Associate Member and get the EDGE magazine.) I know of several staff instructors at a new rink who sent resumes to the owner/managers of the rink BEFORE it opened. In their cover letters, they sold themselves to the manager. When the Director was hired, they were encouraged to hire these instructors because of their iniative.

BTW, the PSA requirement is rink-to-rink. Some rinks/directors insist that everyone on staff must be PSA members. Having a PSA-only staff gives the program an air of professionalism, and the PSA recognizes the rink as being a "Center of Excellence." Having recently attended a PSA seminar, I can tell you I learned NOTHING relevant to teaching LTS. However, an upcoming ISI seminar has a "Teaching Tots" topic that is dead-on applicable.

[flippet]

I've seen people banned from a rink for teaching someone they met on a public session.
Yeah, gotta watch out for that. Where I used to skate, I would help out my friend on the empty public sessions. I never claimed to be a coach, never accepted money, and always made sure to say that 'if your coach tells you to do it differently, then don't listen to me!' This was a CYA move, because the skating director really frowned on even one adult skater helping another like that. The director never approached me about it, though--just my friend; likely because my friend appears easier to push around. Also, the director was trying to get my friend to take private lessons from her during the public session. That was fine with me, I was actually encouraging it, but my friend was hesitant about it because the director was known to be a bit of a witch. I tried to stay personally on reasonably friendly terms with the director, but she apparently didn't see a 'mark' in me, because even though I was one of the better students, and could have used private lessons, she never offered her services to me. Because of her attitude, I knew it would have been hopeless to ask to teach LTS, even though I would have enjoyed it very much. She was just too much of a power-tripper, and I wasn't in the 'in' group. Unfortunately, you'll find that in some rinks.

[dbny]

I teach LtS. I had to get insurance to do it, so I joined PSA. Kay

USFS and ISI also offer coaching insurance. It's about the same price and coverage for any of them.

[Skatewind]

Wow, most rinks I've skated at (New England region) say in their ice contracts "guest coaches welcome", you just have to pay the freestyle fee to be on that ice. I think getting banned for coaching without being on staff is RIDICULOUS. So totalitarian. As long as the coach makes it clear he/she is not affiliated with the skating club residing in any said rink, I can't believe they would forbid people to coach. Not on club ice, that I understand, but on regular freestyles or publics.
I have a very different view about this. Skating professionals are supposed to be just that. Professionals. Restrictions regarding teaching at many rinks (both public or private) frequently has a lot to do with risk management, county regulations & any number of other things, not to mention qualifications. Although it is up to the professional to research & comply in this area, a lot of people would be very surprised to hear how many coaches do not keep their insurance or required background information current, or even submit it as required, unless it is demanded. In other words, many are unprofessional professionals who don't consider the big picture of what they are doing. I can't blame any rink who actively assesses their risk management for placing restrictions or requirements regarding who's allowed to teach at their rink. I have witnessed some really outlandish & unsafe practices by people who present themselves as skating "professionals" & no rink should be forced to take on liability simply because a self designated coach has entitlement issues & feels he should be able to teach wherever or whenever he likes.

Having said that, at the other extreme there are indeed situations where skating directors take advantage of their job title to control a rink for their own personal gain at the expense of developing the strongest skating program possible. But that is something that needs to addressed on an individual basis rink to rink, not a reason for a rink to disregard sound risk management practices.

[CeeCee]

As a skating director and a coach, here is my policy. Our rink has an "Open Pro" policy. I have a guideline sheet that all guest coaches must sign. They must also provide a copy of individual insurance. We do not charge commission or Freestyle fees, but we do request that coaches sign in so we know who is a paying customer and who is not. My staff must be PSA members.

[Purrsonality]

Many skaters teach group classes, and most elite skaters coach on the side for extra money- none are members of the PSA, that would make them professionals. I guess it depends on where you want to coach.

Competitive skaters are allowed to coach without losing their eligibility. There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot be a member of PSA. If you look at the membership list you will see many eligible skaters are members.

[gregyoshi]

What a thrill to read all the replies and get so much useful info. Thanks very much everyone! Greg

[fadedstardust]

Competitive skaters are allowed to coach without losing their eligibility. There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot be a member of PSA. If you look at the membership list you will see many eligible skaters are members.

Really? Huh. I believe you, but I guess if that's the case then I think that's very hypocritical- joining the Professional Skaters Association, if you intend on remaining an amateur skater. I don't see how/why that would be allowed, considering there are allowances now made for amateur skaters enabling them to earn money without becoming a pro. I think it's good to join the PSA if you're going to coach, I think if you are an elite skater coaching levels intermediate and up, you should be required to get some sort of coaching credentials, because being a great skater in no way means you'll be a great coach especially with the more difficult elements, but, I just don't see how amateur skaters should be allowed to join a professional organization.

[Isk8NYC]

Given the educational opportunities offered by the PSA, ISI, and USFS, joining those organizations would be a benefit for skaters that want to become coaches. Many Sports Management college programs don't address the special needs of Ice Skating. In addition, aspiring coaches and show skaters could have the opportunity to meet people that could help them find a job. In Career Planning seminars, they encourage post-high school students to join and participate in an organization for the knowledge and networking it provides.
These memberships also inform skaters of rule changes, expose them to new skating ideas and venues. Yes, their own coach should do that, but there's no reason the skater cannot find out directly. In addition, they're eligible for discounts, seminar attendances, and access to learning tools such as the PSA MITF tapes.

Many ISI Associate members aren't "pros" -- they're skaters or Club leaders that want to know more about what's going on in skating. There are other magazines that purport to do this, but many of them focus only on the current "star" skaters, not on the technical requirements, etc. Trade journals like Rink and the Edge fill that need.

I see no reason why a competitive skater that's willing to spend his/her own money to join, would be turned away from a professional organization.

[blue111moon]

There is no such thing as "amateur" skaters anymore, and hasn't been for a decade. Time to banish that term from the vocabualry. Skaters are either ISU-eligible or not. It has nothing to do with income status.

My rink only requires pros to register and pay the annual fee (it was $200 the last I knew but it could have changed) to coach on public sessions and be listed as a rink professional instructor. Staff coaches teaching on rink-run LTS programs are hired by the rink's skating director who is hired by the rink manager. All the ones I know are PSA members and professional coaches with either ISI or USFSA or both. The skating club requires staff coaches to be USFSA members and PSA members, pay an annual fee to teach on club sessions and to carry personal liability insurance. LTS coaches are either established club coaches or former club skaters who have spent several years volunteering with the program. LTS coaches must be over age 18, USFSA and PSA members and carry personal liability insurance, and be home club members as well.

The various hockey LTS programs run at the rink generally have students and parents coaching groups. For someone with no experience, that might be a place to start.

[Skatewind]

Really? Huh. I believe you, but I guess if that's the case then I think that's very hypocritical- joining the Professional Skaters Association, if you intend on remaining an amateur skater. I don't see how/why that would be allowed, considering there are allowances now made for amateur skaters enabling them to earn money without becoming a pro. I think it's good to join the PSA if you're going to coach, I think if you are an elite skater coaching levels intermediate and up, you should be required to get some sort of coaching credentials, because being a great skater in no way means you'll be a great coach especially with the more difficult elements, but, I just don't see how amateur skaters should be allowed to join a professional organization.
The determining factor for skaters to qualify for competition is no longer amateur or professional. They are deemed eligible or ineligible. The PSA has several different classes of membership available, & currently offers the only rating system for U.S. coaches. Since this is the rating system currently recognized by USFS, skaters must become PSA members if they want to be rated.

There is also the new rule CR 8.71, which requires any coach being credentialed for a U.S. Figure Skating qualifying competition to be a member of both USFS & PSA, effective Sept 1, 2004.

I don't see a PSA membership as being hypocritical, considering the changes that have been made by USFS in the last 10 years. However, I do question the effectiveness of some PSA programs. The general public, parents & new skaters should check all coaching credentials thoroughly & not just rely on the PSA rating or membership of the coach.

[fadedstardust]

So it's alright to join the PSA and remain eligible? I've gotten false information if that's the case, but that would be wonderful, I for some reason wasn't aware of all the changes. That's probably bad, because I skate and I should know when things like that are changed but I guess it never came up, I just assumed it was still the same. If you can now join PSA and still be deemed eligible, I'd really like someone to confirm that, because now I'm very curious. *_*

[sk8pics]

My coach is an eligible skater and also a PSA member. I believe there is a member directory you can look through, and it should then become obvious that you can be an eligible skater and also a PSA member.

[Skatewind]

PSA is an advocacy organization for coaches. It is not a sports organization like USFS. Skaters can be a member of both.