Five-step mohawk sequence?

[erdehoff]

Hey, guys -- on Sunday I'll be taking the Adult Bronze Moves test, and my coach wasn't sure about this question, so I thought I'd ask it here. Do you have to perform the five-step mohawk (which is also on the Pre-Juv Moves test) a certain number of times down each length of the rink or can it be adjusted to fit the skater? The pattern in the USFSA book shows five half-circles down each length; I tend to run out of room after four. Thanks!

[Debbie S]

Good luck, erdehoff! It sounds like you've passed your Pre-Bronze tests already - wow, you've passed a lot of tests in a short time! After passing my Pre-Bronze MIF and FS in May, I decided to take some time off from moves - I'll probably start Bronze moves next month, after my club's show and the Wilmington comp in a few weeks.

As for the 5-step, I thought the rulebook said 4-6 half-circles. But since I haven't taken the test yet, I can't be sure. Sorry I can't be of more help.

[skaternum]

The judge's test form for the Bronze MITF see USFSA site (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JP_MF-Adult%20Bronze.pdf) doesn't prescribe a number, or even a range, of patterns you must do. Many adults only do 4 patterns on each side. My coach, who has been coaching Moves since they began, almost always has students test doing 4, not 5, patterns.

So, you got old enough to test Adult track!! Good luck with your test!!

[backspin]

The main argument for doing 5 is that it gets you nicely out of the corner & into the end pattern / end of the move. It makes it smoother in general, which in turn gives a nice overall impression for the judges. It's not that it's required; it does, however, make it look more polished, IMO.

I did 5--just do deeper edges (if you have time to make the adjustments) if you can do that without losing speed.

Good luck on the test! Let us know how it goes.

[jenlyon60]

If you do too few (less than 4 on an NHL or Olympic size rink) then your lobes are too big and you're probably skating the pattern on edges that are too flat (especially the BO-FO mohawks). If your edges are too flat, almost certainly you will get comments from the judges.

4 to 5 repeats are about right. I usually get 5 patterns per side, starting at the edge of one of the hockey circles, and ending a few feet from the barriet at the other end.

[IceDoctor]

I have my students take 4. If you place the first lobe right around the corner circle, it should perfectly set up the rest of the pattern for you.

[AshBugg44]

My coach has her students do 5 - aiming for 2 1/2 on each half of the ice...We have a smaller-than-normal ice rink and we all still fit 5 nicely.

[erdehoff]

Thank you so much for the advice and encouragement! I've already passed the preliminary moves test, so I'm probably OK with the two Bronze moves that are on that one, and I feel comfortable with both of the other Pre-Juv moves, but the mohawks are newer to me and I'm having trouble with the LBO-RFO bit. But it helps to know I probably have some leeway on the number of half-circles I do. I tend to run out of room when I do five. I'll try to hammer out the kinks tomorrow in my lesson, and I'll let everyone know how the test goes. I figure if I don't pass this time, it's not the end of the world -- but it sure would be nice to get it out of the way!

(And yes, I'm a real grown-up now! Whee, 25!)

[dbny]

Hey, guys -- on Sunday I'll be taking the Adult Bronze Moves test, and my coach wasn't sure about this question, so I thought I'd ask it here. Do you have to perform the five-step mohawk (which is also on the Pre-Juv Moves test) a certain number of times down each length of the rink or can it be adjusted to fit the skater? The pattern in the USFSA book shows five half-circles down each length; I tend to run out of room after four. Thanks!

Not to be disrespectful towards your coach, but she* should make it her business to know things like this. She is the one who should be seeking answers - that's what you pay her for. I'm a little shocked that you are testing on Sunday, and your coach has left this hanging. OTOH, I've seen much worse: At a recent test session, a coach leaned over and asked my coach (only minutes before his skater took the ice for Pre-Prelim FS) "What are the elements in this test?".



* or "he" as the case may be

[Mel On Ice]

Not to be disrespectful towards your coach, but he/she should make it her business to know things like this.

In defense of said coach, there are many out there, like my coach, who was raised on school figures and haven't had a lot of experience with moves. Most of her kids either have a "moves" coach or were the itty bitties that had to do the simple stuff.

That's why on my first go-around on the moves test, neither one of us knew any better and I did 7 lobes down one side -- I thought the pattern, which I lifted from an old rulebook that showed 6 lobes, was supposed to be short and quick. Needless to say, I failed that one after my 3rd lobe. I passed ABMITF a few months ago doing 4 lobes on each side, with the help of my moves class instructors and my coach, who brushed up on her knowledge of them.

[erdehoff]

<< Not to be disrespectful towards your coach, but she* should make it her business to know things like this. She is the one who should be seeking answers - that's what you pay her for. >>

Well, I pay him to teach me how to perform the moves, how to position my body so the edges are correct and flow well, that kind of thing. But since the rule book doesn't seem to say for sure (on some moves it specifies how many lobes/repetitions and on others it doesn't), I thought I'd double-check. English isn't his first language and sometimes he's not entirely reliable on details like that if they aren't spelled out. Everything else he does is so good that I'm OK with that. :)

[dbny]

In defense of said coach, there are many out there, like my coach, who was raised on school figures and haven't had a lot of experience with moves. Most of her kids either have a "moves" coach or were the itty bitties that had to do the simple stuff.

My coach also grew up with school figures, but since she teaches moves, bought the PSA tapes and has studied them and the test requirements carefully. She has also started taking the moves tests herself, since that is what her students have to do. I'm sure that's the exception, but I really do appreciate her depth of knowledge of the moves requirements. I actually find it kind of intimidating that she is taking the moves tests, since she is such a superb skater and is pretty much just breezing through them (well, of course she paid her dues a long time ago).

[jazzpants]

I've been practicing 5. (2 1/2 on each side.) And as someone says, it's to help you get nicely around on the ends of each sides.

Yeah, I know it's tough to get around on 5. My rink is NHL size, but I still have to do 5 of them per the diagrams. Both coaches told me to just do them smaller and deeper. :P It certainly is different from when I practice at my weekend rink, which is Olympic sized (and lately much MUCH quieter!!!)

[skaternum]

Darn it! You hit one of my hot buttons!! :P

I'm sure erdehoff's coach is great at teaching alignment and proper turning technique, etc. (so no disrespect intended here on that count), but IMO we pay our coaches way too much money for them to not know the rules on testing and competing. That's a fundamental part of the job. As a professional software tester in a government regulated industry, part of my job is testing software and part of my job is documentation of the process. If I did a great job testing, but created crappy documentation or asked someone else to do mine, my boss would give me 1 more chance and then fire me! Why shouldn't we expect a professional figure skating coach to be able to teach and learn the rules. I've been able to figure out (through reading, studying, and experience) the rules that apply to my testing and competing. It's just a hobby for me, but it's the coach's career.

This may not be the situation with erdehoff's coach, but one of my pet peeves (can you tell?) is coaches who are more than willing to take the $$, but aren't willing to do whatever it takes to learn the rules. USFSA is a very rule-based organization, so a coach really needs to make an effort. This particular case isn't as bad as some of the other questions posted here. Based on some of the stuff I've seen on this and other boards, there are some lazy, clueless coaches out there making way too much money. (ohmygod, I sound like johns.)

And if they don't speak English, they need to form a professional partnership with someone who does know the rules and can help "mentor" them in the intricacies of USFSA testing and competing, until they're able to do so on their own. I've seen this with new Russian and European coaches before. At the very least, they need to be responsible for getting the necessary information that their students need.

Erdehoff, I'm intentionally taking my rant to an extreme. I'm not saying that your coach is guilty of egregious professional negligence! But I do think we all need to expect/demand that the coaches we pay to guide us through the testing structure know what that testing structure is all about.

Related pet peeve for a different thread: coaches and/or students who don't bother to use the rulebook, and are willing to accept heresay from any old person with a computer. Like me. Ha! :lol:

[Debbie S]

skaternum, I agree with you, but one issue to keep in mind is whether the rulebook provides essential information. I don't have a copy of the rulebook - I've looked occasionally at others' - but I know we've already discussed the fact that the so-called adult MIF judging guidelines aren't in there, and from what others have posted here, it seems that there's no specific requirement listed for the 5-step mohawk (my earlier post was based on what I heard one adult skater mention to another at a competition).

It seems that some info is simply picked up through experience or passed down from one coach to another. I agree that all coaches should be knowledgeable about all the standards, but I also think the USFSA needs to do a better job of disseminating those standards.

[jenlyon60]

Virtually none of the in-depth judging standards (for standard or adult track) are provided in detail in the rulebook.

That can work both to the skater's benefit and detriment during a test. For example, if Cleopatra skates a tad weak, in terms of execution, but has superb posture and really sells the whole test, some judges will mark it passing, especially on the Junior and Senior MIF tests. OTOH, if the skater looks droopy and "i really don't want to be here," that will often be obvious and can affect how the test is perceived.

The absolute hardest test to assess is one that is borderline. Nothing done spectacularly, nothing done really poorly... everything is just sort of _there_.

[MissIndigo]

I also think the USFSA needs to do a better job of disseminating those standards.

Yes they do, and I feel if this is done, the coaches may be on more of an even level when it comes to judging the tests--especially the adult tests. A bit (quite a bit, imo) of the judging for an adult moves test I feel is subjective, and realize this will probably remain so. I have attempted the Bronze test twice and actually received higher marks (a whole 0.3 higher!) on a test on which I goofed an element vs. one where I finished everything and felt like I was much more confident! To this day I can't figure that one out.

[Isk8NYC]

I agree with both Skaternum and DebbieS -- every skater and coach MUST have a copy of the rulebook. It doesn't give you all the details, but it is a starting point. Once you've got the basics down, you can then ask intelligent questions, make notes, and really understand the requirements.
If nothing else, the book is useful to give you something to do if you get bored. You can look through it when you're waiting for the Zamboni. When I get frustrated at not being able to do a spin or jump, I pull out the book and try something else.

The bulkiness is not so good, though. I wish the ISI and USFS could split their books into "on ice" and "off ice" sections so we can take the patterns and maneuvers out of our bag without losing the rules and committee listings.

[skaternum]

skaternum, I agree with you, but one issue to keep in mind is whether the rulebook provides essential information. <snip>It seems that some info is simply picked up through experience or passed down from one coach to another. I agree that all coaches should be knowledgeable about all the standards, but I also think the USFSA needs to do a better job of disseminating those standards.

Yes, indeed. The rulebook can be both difficult to understand and incomplete in terms of things like judging standards. But this doesn't relieve the coach of the responsibility of obtaining the information. That's why coaches who are new to coaching or new to USFSA have to do a little extra work to find out what they need to know. I wish it were easier, because I've had to go through the "picking someone's brain" exercise to find out about testing and judging standards, but unfortunately that's part of what you have to do right now. I figure if I'm being a guinea pig for a coach as they learn about USFSA testing, they should be paying me, not the other way around. ;)

[erdehoff]

My coach knows almost everything I need to know to test -- he just wasn't sure about that particular point (neither was I) because it wasn't spelled out in the rulebook, and many things aren't. Sometimes the pattern will say, for example, that the skater must perform 3 to 6 three-turns or crossovers or whatever. Sometimes it's silent on things like that. In those cases, my coach doesn't always know, so I generally ask people who have taken the test in question. Thanks for the help. I did pass the test -- I wasn't expecting to, frankly, because the mohawks were shaky!

[Stormy]

Congrats! On to Silver! :)

[skaternum]

I did pass the test -- I wasn't expecting to, frankly, because the mohawks were shaky!

Yay! I'm not surprised, having seen you skate at the New Years Adult comp in VA in January. Are you going to be taking your Bronze FS next or move on to Silver MITF?

[Debbie S]

Congratulations!

[dbny]

Congratulations :bow:

[mikawendy]

Woo-hoo! 8-) 8-) 8-)

[jazzpants]

YAAAAAAY!!!! Congrats, erdehoff!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[erdehoff]

Thanks! I think it'll be a while before I'm ready for Silver MITF, as I just started learning the Pre-Juv moves a month ago and at this point I'm lucky if I skate two 45-minute sessions a week. :( I need to work on the back three-turns before I take Silver. So I'll probably test Preliminary and Bronze freestyles next.