OMG! It’s Steven!

[SDFanatic]

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later, someone decided that instead of ignoring me, or shuffling me off to some dark corner, to instead, write about me and who I am. You can read the online version here

http://www.cleveland.com/sundaymag/features/index.ssf?/base/sunday_mag/108452711789791.xml

I didn’t have any editorial control over this article, and fortunately, I don’t have any major corrections to make for what was said. Only problem being of course was trying to cover the shear volume of what could have been written and said in such a short article.

Steven

P.S. Northern Ohio Live has postponed publishing their article, it may not appear until this fall.

[jazzpants]

Hey, Steven! YOU'RE FAMOUS!!! Enjoy the limelight!!! :P (And if I were ever in your neck of the woods, I'll be happy to have a picture of me with you in a skating dress!!!) 8-)

[dooobedooo]

Congratulations!

Could we see some photos? I am amazed you have such a huge dress collection. I have about six practice outfits, and about same number of competition dresses.

I can understand you preferring a skirt and tights - so do I - apart from anything else, it gives you more freedom of movement. But so many girls/women wear leggings or trousers these days, that it can attract a lot of unwanted attention for anybody over the age of 10, even if wearer is female. So if want privacy when I skate, I am driven to wearing trousers too. :evil:

[Mrs Redboots]

I like to wear a skirt and tights if it isn't too cold - but our dance club does have a dress code that women *must* wear skirts (it's not that rigidly enforced, but Remarks were Passed when I turned up in leggings one night), and if it's freezing, I have been known to stay at home.....

[daisies]

Steven, that is awesome and so are you. You go on with yo bad self! Who cares what other people -- especially closed-minded people -- think, anyway? :)

[SDFanatic]

Hehe Jazzpants, there are a few people that have done that already, but only because of my legs!

Hi dooobedooo, I don't have a scanner, so I took a picture of it, it doesn't look all that great, but is viewable, only other problem being is where to put them as I don't have my website at the moment.

I'm sorry to hear about the remarks made about your wearing leggings for warmth Mrs Redboots, I myself usually wear two pairs of tights, one of them being Modor whoolie's if its going to be cold.

Overall it's been good, but I know I have a lot more to go yet.

Steven

[Mel On Ice]

I hate it when men look better in dresses than I do. :lol:

Just do your thing man.

[flippet]

Hey, if men can wear kilts and no one raises a stink (usually), why not a skating dress? It's only fabric, after all. Ruffles and flounces once belonged more to men than women, and in nature, it's usually the male who gets the colors or display.

Some people need to get over themselves. I've read plenty of books with weird covers--and sometimes the pages are weird too, but usually the pages hold a great story, and it's worth it to take a look.

[MQSeries]

Some people need to get over themselves. I've read plenty of books with weird covers--and sometimes the pages are weird too, but usually the pages hold a great story, and it's worth it to take a look.

But there usually is a right time and place for everything. One the one hand I do admire people who choose to be themselves regardless of what others thinks, but at the same time a responsible adult also has to consider what is the appropriate boundary in public spaces, especially when there are young kids and their parents around. Give those parents the option of what to expose their children to.

I mean there are probably men who would love to crossdress when they're sitting in board meetings, but they don't do it, because it's just not the appropriate environment to do it in.

[Sk8Bunny]

But there usually is a right time and place for everything. One the one hand I do admire people who choose to be themselves regardless of what others thinks, but at the same time a responsible adult also has to consider what is the appropriate boundary in public spaces, especially when there are young kids and their parents around. Give those parents the option of what to expose their children to.

I mean there are probably men who would love to crossdress when they're sitting in board meetings, but they don't do it, because it's just not the appropriate environment to do it in.

I couldnt agree more. While this is the USA and people have the freedom to dress as they please, its important to be respectful. I mean, it would be totally inappropriate for a woman to go topless at a public swimming pool, even tho, yes, males only have to wear swim trunks, not swim tops. It isnt much different for skating. There's a time and place to express ones self, but I dont beleive a public skating arena is one of these. If someone is going to be a figure skater, they have to take on the entire role of being a skater and all that is invovled in skating - including respect the rules and traditions of the sport. That may sound silly and lame, but some things in life just simply need to have boundaries. no exceptions.

(please note, im not pointing fingers at anyone - im just speaking in general and stating my concern and opinion)

[Aussie Willy]

So just do whatever you feel!!!

BTW - check out my friend David in his Swan Lake outfit from our rink Xmas show - the picture is on my tape trading webpage - just scroll down.

www.geocities.com/kwillyau/index

[flo]

Do you skate at the club sessions at all? Is it that you enjoy wearing a ladies dress or an outfit that's floaty and whatever? Just a suggestion - If you're really interested in skating the club sessions - then perhaps offer a compromise. With all the variation in men's costumes there should be something you and the club can agree on. Since you're obviously not afraid to try something - then try to find a "Steven" costume - not men's/ladies but something that works for you. How about a tunic type outfit and a sash? It would give you the floaty feeling of a dress, while providing something more characteristic of a man's costume. If you don't want to skate at the sessions, then it's not an issue. If you "must" wear a ladies dress to skate - then it's not about the skating.

[SDFanatic]

Tradition, ahh yes, lets go back to traditional attire, it looks like men traditionaly wore skirts, in fact, mens skirts were shorter then womens skirts. Ahh yes, moving up some we see that men also wore tights (and cod pieces which is what bras came from) and men even wore heels and wigs. Lets see too, women didn't get to do much, they were more like slaves, they didn't get to vote, they served men, kept up the houshold, and lacked many of todays rights.

Oooo, silly me! You meant traditional skating attire! Lets see, traditional skating attire would have you in black boots, an ankle length skirt or dress and full petticoats. And speaking of tradition, it was unladylike for women to jump and/or spin.

Speaking of tradition, perhaps ladies shouldn't be allowed to wear pants, shorts, leotards, or tights either then, as those are all mens clothing.

Ah well, I'm sorry, I just don't think it's fair that I am restricted in what i can and cannot wear, it's just clothing after all, it covers my skin.

Awsome Willy! I think it would be hard pressed to see anyone around here letting a man play a female character, yet females play males characters all the time, and sometimes wear skirts to boot!

Flo, I don't "have" to wear a skirt to skate, I like the skirt as it adds more movement to skating. Someone just skating around in lets say a unitard (which is banned, which is just silly) is a pertty static figure, even when moving. Jumps and spins, yes, convey a sense of energy, I just find that that extra piece of fabric add's a bit more to it. And it's not just the skirt mind you, yes, I have seen sashes and those are interesting, as well as ponytails, just something about the extra movement.

As for club ice, I don't skate on it much due to cost, it's $12 an hour and anywhere from 10 to 20 people on it. I can skate on public ice for $1.50 for two hours (or three) and there are usually less then six people on it. So guess which sessions I would rather skate on?

Attire for skating on club ice, let me give you an example, lets say that a male and female in the club are both doing an interpative program and are practicing for an upcoming competition during club ice. The female is playing a male character (who wears pants), while the male is playing a female character (who wears a skirt) Given the current discrimintory rules, the only time (club ice) that the male can wear the skirt would be at the competition, while the female would be allowed to practice in pants. It seems to me that there are some traditions that need to be dissolved (I think ladies should have the option to wear pants for competition myself, it's something else I'm working on)

As for a "Steven" costume, yes, I have been trying to come up with something, we have tried many things, and yes, I have a tunic and a doublet. Tradition would have me wearing tights or leggings with those, but men are not allowed that option. Me and my many seamstresses have played around with a number of ideas, we have tried different insets, hemlines, fullness, layers, colors and what not, and as goofy as it is, they all think I look pretty darn good in a skirt!

Steven

[Alexa]

Steven, I think you have made some good points. Though I am not the kind of person that likes to do things that differ greatly from the norm, I respect those that do.

Taking your points to the workplace--I have noticed at various workplaces, that in a non-casual environment, a man is basically forced to wear long sleeve shirt, tie, and dress pants to work. Whereas women are fortunate enough to choose between pants, skirts, and various types of shirts. Especially in the summertime, we have many women wearing short sleeve shirts and nice sandals to work. Men do not have those same options if a tie is required in the dept in which they work. Since short sleeve collared shirts are not worn all that much, men do not have a lot of options.

So, you have a point. Granted there are not many men wanting to dress like females, but they should have the option anyway. I don't really see why so many people in your rink make such a big deal about it. Even if I do think someone is acting or dressing in a "strange" manner, I don't get upset about it--it intrigues me more than anything.

[sk8er1964]

I've read Steven's posts from the time he joined the forum. The first time I realized that Steven was a man, I thought OMG, what a weirdo! And people on this forum were condoning it! But I continued to read his posts, and realized that maybe he wasn't so weird after all. A lot of what he says is valid - for example, I much prefer to skate in a skirt, and do so on public skates. It's ok for me because of my gender, but not for him? That hardly seems fair. What if it was the other way around? I would certainly be jumping up and down on somebody's desk to change that rule!

Then I had the pleasure of meeting Steven in person at Mids, and he is a really nice, quite normal looking person :) . Personally, I think the parents who are freaking out about him skating on public skates are missing a good opportunity to teach their children that not everyone who looks different is dangerous or something to be feared.

I do think, however, that you have an uphill battle ahead of you, Steven. When Sonia Henie (sp) changed the way women dressed in skating, it was at a time that society itself was was changing how we viewed women. I wish you the best of luck - I enjoyed reading the article, too.

PS - thanks for opening my mind a little bit more :D . Hope to see you at a competition this year!

[batikat]

Well Steven knows I don't see this the same way he does. :)

I think the comments about appropriate time and place for cross-dressing are very relevant. The 'traditional' argument is a bit of a red herring, as like statistics it can more or less prove a case for anything, so the attitudes of contemporary Western society is a better guide to what is appropriate in an ice-rink today and while contemporary Western society accepts women wearing 'pants' in almost every area of society (except skating competitions (which I rather like!!! - but didnt' until I started competing and finding how putting on special competition attire i.e.a dress, helps me to get in the right frame of mind for a competition )), it doesnt' generally accept men wearing skirts. Kilts are not quite the same thing as they are a national costume - very few men would wear them for every day but wear them for special occasions - weddings, highland games, Scottish gatherings of any sort.

Very few men can wear a skirt without being ridiculed. One of the designers tried to put men in skirts but it didnt' catch on. David Beckham (famous British footballer) wore a sarong type skirt - but only once I think and he was ridiculed in every paper in the land. Eddie Izzard is another famous British cross-dresser - he's a comedian but he doesnt' wear dresses so much anymore. He seems like a real nice guy - as I am sure Steven is - but I'd still prefer to see him in clothing that is not clothing designed for women.

I have seen male skaters wear womens attire but only ever in artistic competitions where the idea has been to surprise, amuse or shock. You can usually practice in your costume on club or session ice in the same way as people occasionally bring props on to practice with which is not normally allowed, but that is not the same as wanting to skate regularly as a man in a dress.

So while I sympathise with Stevens desire to skate in a dress I can also see that it could well offend, upset or shock some people. Anyone who goes against established norms has to be prepared to accept criticism and consider whether their actions are infringing on anyone else rights. It's all very well for those here who know Steven, to be supportive and say of course it 's OK because he's really a normal guy who happens to like wearing dresses but most people wouldn't know that and people are naturally wary of something they are not familiar with. I guess the newpaper article will help people to become familiar and Steven you might end up becoming something of a tourist attraction for the rink!!! As long as you can deal with the reactions of the public (and the management allow you to skate in a dress) I guess you can do what you like - but you can't necessarily expect other people to be happy with it if you go against current norms. and unfortunately for Steven, cross-dressing, transvestism, etc, by men, tends to be thought of by many people(erroneously for the most part) as being related to the sleazier side of life.
Perhaps Brad Pitt et al in the film 'Troy' will change that!

Good Luck!

[flippet]

Very few men can wear a skirt without being ridiculed.


Living your life in a box for fear of ridicule is sad. Be who you are!


One of the designers tried to put men in skirts but it didnt' catch on. David Beckham (famous British footballer) wore a sarong type skirt - but only once I think and he was ridiculed in every paper in the land.
Didn't have the spine to do it again, eh? Sad. :lol:


Eddie Izzard is another famous British cross-dresser - he's a comedian but he doesnt' wear dresses so much anymore. He seems like a real nice guy - as I am sure Steven is - but I'd still prefer to see him in clothing that is not clothing designed for women.
I LOVE Eddie. I don't give two hoots about what he wears--fabric is fabric, just like colors are colors--no gender gets the corner on the market. Honestly, I feel the same way about makeup--it's just crayons and color for the face, and there are some men (Eddie included) who happen to look rather good in it. This rigidity in the way we're told to see other people is sad--people are more than their gender (or, more accurately, more than what other people say the expression of one's gender ought to be).

I have seen male skaters wear womens attire but only ever in artistic competitions where the idea has been to surprise, amuse or shock. You can usually practice in your costume on club or session ice in the same way as people occasionally bring props on to practice with which is not normally allowed, but that is not the same as wanting to skate regularly as a man in a dress.
So shock value is ok, while being yourself is not? Nice.

So while I sympathise with Stevens desire to skate in a dress I can also see that it could well offend, upset or shock some people. Anyone who goes against established norms has to be prepared to accept criticism and consider whether their actions are infringing on anyone else rights.
True--however, I think the problem then lies with the people who feel offended, not with Steven. And, I can't see how his wearing a dress infringes on anyone's rights--not any more than your wearing blue infringes on my rights.

[flo]

And the reason for the white boots? At my rink I wouldn't have a problem with a guy wearing a tunic /sash outfit with leggings in the attempt to blend in, but I would not want a guy in a ladies skirt/dress on my session any more than a woman with her top off or something as unusual. It would be a major distraction for many of the kids and parents and whoever wants to gawk. I'm there to skate and there's enough distractions and difficulties in getting in a good practice with all the levels and disciplines without adding to it.

[dbny]

I've resisted posting on this thread and on the one on which Steven posted pix of himself in a dress because I neither approve nor disapprove of Steven's choice of skating attire, but do believe there is a very specific and rather obvious reason for it, which is not simply preference. I think Steven shares a trait with many actors and other performers, and I do not say this with even a hint of judgement....but it sure looks to me like exhibitionism. I've met lots of exhibitionists and in general have not found them to be any kind of problem unless I am competing with them for attention :lol: . I once had a neighbor (another mom) who wore shorts so short that you knew she had to be wearing thong underwear or nothing. That's mildly exhibitionistic, and it didn't bother me - not my butt hanging out, and our kids played well together. So, IMO, Steven enjoys the attention, and that is the real point of wearing dresses to skate. Good skaters can skate in anything, and dedicated skaters will skate in whatever is available without much concern for it, as skating is their main concern. Steven - I wish you many years of enjoyment!

[Moto Guzzi]

Very few men can wear a skirt without being ridiculed.

Check out the pictures at http://www.macabiskirt.com/pgjournal.html. The macabi skirt is a travel skirt and, while most of the pictures are of women wearing the skirt, there are some men wearing it, too.

If men want to wear skirts, that's fine with me. A friend and I had a good time looking at men in kilts when we went to the local Scottish games. Some of them, like Steven, had very nice legs! We have several women at my agency who wear men's suits and ties and nobody says anything. I know of a male dance teacher who sometimes wears a skirt when he's teaching because he likes the way it feels.

Steven, I'm sorry that you've had problems with some of the parents and with your club. There are far worse things than a man in a dress that they should be worrying about. I admire you for being true to yourself and not giving into the pressure to conform.

[Mrs Redboots]

If you want to see a man wearing a skirt, look at a Greek soldier! And a sarong-type skirt is everyday wear for men in Myanmar. So it's only our culture that makes us think a man in a skirt is unusual - after all, what could be more masculine than a Scot in traditional dress?

All the same, to be absolutely frank, I'd rather see a man wear a male skirt than a woman's one, but that's me. Some trannies look great, others merely grotesque!

[MQSeries]

If you want to see a man wearing a skirt, look at a Greek soldier! And a sarong-type skirt is everyday wear for men in Myanmar. So it's only our culture that makes us think a man in a skirt is unusual - after all, what could be more masculine than a Scot in traditional dress?

All the same, to be absolutely frank, I'd rather see a man wear a male skirt than a woman's one, but that's me. Some trannies look great, others merely grotesque!

But kilts, sarongs, togas and ancient greeks and romans' tunic aren't the same as a dress that is definitely feminine and definitely designed for a woman. (I have not seen Steven's skating attire, but I'm assuming that he wears a skating dress that without a doubt is intended for a girl/woman.)

[dooobedooo]

I don't mind men wearing skirts or dresses if either:

(a) they are very convincingly feminine (you can't tell the difference!) or
(b) they are entirely masculine (like David Beckham, I quite fancied him in a sarong; or like Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake; or like John Kerr's kilt)
(c) they are making pantomime fun (like a dame in a panto, or like some trannies)

What I really cannot stand, is when men wear costumes that "take the piss" out of feminine beauty and grace. I saw a skating exhibition once, where two men came on dressed in white feathers as ballerina swans. They were both gross, fat, middleaged. They proceeded to clunk and clomp around in black boots and do quite a difficult clowning acrobatic act. They really made me wince, and I had to look away. It was just nasty.

So by all means wear a skirt; be flash and colourful; be a "male Peacock", but please don't make it nasty.

[batikat]

Living your life in a box for fear of ridicule is sad. Be who you are!


Didn't have the spine to do it again, eh? Sad. :lol:


I LOVE Eddie. I don't give two hoots about what he wears--fabric is fabric, just like colors are colors--no gender gets the corner on the market. Honestly, I feel the same way about makeup--it's just crayons and color for the face, and there are some men (Eddie included) who happen to look rather good in it. This rigidity in the way we're told to see other people is sad--people are more than their gender (or, more accurately, more than what other people say the expression of one's gender ought to be).


So shock value is ok, while being yourself is not? Nice.


True--however, I think the problem then lies with the people who feel offended, not with Steven. And, I can't see how his wearing a dress infringes on anyone's rights--not any more than your wearing blue infringes on my rights.

I have to disagree with your last point. The problem does not lie with the other people. Everyone has the right to their feelings even if they do not agree with yours. People may be shocked and offended due to religion or upbringing and I dont think anyone else has the right to tell them they are wrong for that. If you do something, let's call it 'unusual', for whatever reason knowing (as Steven does) that it is likely to offend or upset some people then it is up to the person who is doing the 'unusual' to explain themselves - not for everyone else to be told they are wrong to have those feelings. He may feel he is doing no harm - they may disagree - it doesnt' make either of them necessarily in the right. He may be able to persuade them to change their view. They may not be offended - they may find it funny - they may laugh. They may love it and be perfectly OK with it. My point was that Steven can wear a dress if he can deal with all that and feel comfortable with himself knowing that his behaviour may have an adverse affect on others. I presume he does. Everyones actions have consequences for others. The more different to the norm those actions the more affect they have.

I don't recall saying it was OK to wear a dress for shock value but not otherwise. It was an observation as was much of the rest of the post. It was also a reference to Stevens complaint that a man wanting to wear a dress for an artistic couldn't practice in it. In my experience people are allowed to wear whatever they like when practicing an artistic.

Personally I have a weakness for men in eyeliner (the 80's have a lot to answer for) but I prefer men not to be wearing womens clothes - even if they look good in them (as Eddie Izzard sometimes does). It's personal preference (but a quick poll in my rink failed to find anyone else who would like to see a man skate in a womans dress either). I would not expect to see any man wearing eyeliner whilst practicing at an ice-rink though and if they did I would consider it highly unusual.

[SDFanatic]

OMG! Can I just say something real quick before I do a couple short replies?

You guayls (guys/gals) are the GREATEST! I mean it! Yes, we all have our opinions and what not, but you guayls are so cool!

batikat, post away, as always I love to hear your insight, and I respect the words you say.

flo, why white boots? Well, I actually wanted blue boots (I love blue) but there was an extra charge for that. So I debated for almost six weeks (lucky me they were backloged and on break) as to what color I wanted, black or white. I asked the opinion of many people on this, some said "your a guy, guys should only wear black" others said "black doesn't cordinate with what your wearing" Even given all that, I was still split 50/50 and going to toss a coin. What finally clinched the deal for going with white was that it was easier to change it to blue then it would be to try and change black to blue, so thats why I have white boots, simple eh?

Mrs Redboots, MQSeries, and dooobedooo, I loved your insight and remarks so I'll try to say some of my thoughts on it.

Kilts, yes, Kilts are traditional attire for Scottish males, they are advancing somewhat with the times, and are getting more modern so that a typical man can wear them. Now is there a style of a skirt that looks like a Kilt that a man could wear for skating? Perhaps there is something out there, or perhaps someone needs to design something like that, and perhaps that would be more acceptable.

Lets see, what would and wouldn't be considered womens clothes? it's a very perplexing question, especialy for me since I do not attach a sex to clothing. Of course a lot of my outfits were either custom made for me, or otherwise altered to fit me, as such, I consider them my clothes, and not mens or womens clothes. Of course the style I prefer is of course typicaly worn by females, which won't change of course if men don't wear it. My prefered style is a long sleeve mock turtleneck with a three circle skirt with a basque waist and a high/low hemline.

My tops are usually very plain, I'm not "accenting" anything there, the high/low hemline of the skirt keeps my legs longer as I have short legs. The basque waist keeps my torso from becoming too short and makes it more perportinate with my legs. A circular hemline and inset tends to make my legs look longer, and it's not too bad, my only complaint is that it doesn't always cover my bum!

I have some outfits I really dread wearing, they either make my legs look really short, or really long! In fact my one photo with me in a leo and leggings looks horrid in my opinion as the top of the leggings came up far too high, I'm 2/3 leggings, and 1/3 top!

dbny, exhibitionists eh? Hehe, ah well, I really don't have a choice given my choice of attire now do I? One thing I could do is go back to wearing black tights, of course black tights with anything not black looks absolutly horrid! Ah well, someone did accuse me seeking attentioon, I don't think I am, but as I said, since it's not normal, it just will. Of course the people who know me, and are used to seeing me, have no problems at all and don't seem to be distrated one bit (however, maybe that one lady who splatted into the boards when I was doing my spiral might have been distracted)

Ok, enough babbeling!

Steven

P.S. Did I mention that you guys are COOL?

[dbny]

dbny, exhibitionists eh? Hehe, ah well, I really don't have a choice given my choice of attire now do I? One thing I could do is go back to wearing black tights, of course black tights with anything not black looks absolutly horrid! Ah well, someone did accuse me seeking attentioon, I don't think I am, but as I said, since it's not normal, it just will. Of course the people who know me, and are used to seeing me, have no problems at all and don't seem to be distrated one bit (however, maybe that one lady who splatted into the boards when I was doing my spiral might have been distracted)


Please, no accusing here! That has a negative connotation and I'm not complaining. Without a bit of exhibitionism the world would be a pretty dull place (no Stones, Madonna, Beatles, etc)...see I've put you in good company. But I do have one complaint - don't be mean to people who splat when they see your spiral, the splat is punishment enough!

[batikat]

flo, why white boots? Well, I actually wanted blue boots (I love blue) but there was an extra charge for that. So I debated for almost six weeks (lucky me they were backloged and on break) as to what color I wanted, black or white. I asked the opinion of many people on this, some said "your a guy, guys should only wear black" others said "black doesn't cordinate with what your wearing" Even given all that, I was still split 50/50 and going to toss a coin. What finally clinched the deal for going with white was that it was easier to change it to blue then it would be to try and change black to blue, so thats why I have white boots, simple eh?



Dylon shoe dye is pretty effective if you want blue boots. Takes a bit of effort and may require a few coats but it should work. (though would probably invalidate any warranty!)
Or boot covers - then you could be Mr Blue Boots. :)

[batikat]

[QUOTE=Moto Guzzi]Check out the pictures at http://www.macabiskirt.com/pgjournal.html. The macabi skirt is a travel skirt and, while most of the pictures are of women wearing the skirt, there are some men wearing it, too.

QUOTE]


Hey thanks for this link. This looks like a marvelous idea - a true unisex garment with a practical purpose that can change from skirt style to pant style and back so that it is always appropriate for any situation. Wish I'd had one when I lived and travelled in Indonesia!

They seem to make a womens version and a mans version. I wonder if there is any difference apart from the sizing?

[peaches]

I have to disagree with your last point. The problem does not lie with the other people. Everyone has the right to their feelings even if they do not agree with yours. People may be shocked and offended due to religion or upbringing and I dont think anyone else has the right to tell them they are wrong for that. ITA with that.

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary. Right or wrong, it's just a fact. If I saw someone like Steven on a session, not only would I not want my students associating with him, if I had children, I wouldn't want them associating with him either. You tow the line in skating, you don't want to be an outcast and anyone associating with Steven would likely be shunned in return.

Steven, I think you're floating down a river called DENIAL and you need therapy. Normal men without issues do not wear womens clothng.

[SDFanatic]

But I do have one complaint - don't be mean to people who splat when they see your spiral, the splat is punishment enough!

Gal darn it! That didn't work at all! It didn't really happen, I was just trying to be silly!

Oh well,

Steven

[SDFanatic]

ITA with that.

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary. Right or wrong, it's just a fact. If I saw someone like Steven on a session, not only would I not want my students associating with him, if I had children, I wouldn't want them associating with him either. You tow the line in skating, you don't want to be an outcast and anyone associating with Steven would likely be shunned in return.

Gee, with people like you, it's no wonder so many laws need to be made to try and achieve some sort of tolerance for other peoples normalcy. (sorry about the bluntness, but after an hour, I couldn't think of something better or more polite, technicly, I should have not said anything at all, oh well, open mouth, insert foot)


Steven, I think you're floating down a river called DENIAL and you need therapy. Normal men without issues do not wear womens clothng.

I'm in denial? And need therapy? In denial of what pray tell? I'm deffinitly not in denial that I can shange peoples minds about who I am, I've done that countless times. And therapy? Yes, I could use some skating therapy as well as a massage. And normal men without issues do not wear womens clothing? Oh please, not like normal women without issues do not wear mens clothing. I know some women who have never worn a skirt or a dress for a day in their life, not even to their wedding! Pants were invented for men to wear, not the other way around. I also know women who wear mens pants becuse they fit them better, I don't think they are in any type of denial. And which restroom does a women in pants use? The one with pants or the one with a skirt? And before pants, everyone wore skirts or dresses (broad deffinition) I think you could use some therapy if you need clothing to tell you what sex a person is.

No Peaches, I think you are the one who is in denial as to the possibility that people who are outside the box of your definition of normal, can be just as normal as those who are inside your box.

Steven

[Alexa]

ITA with that.

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary. Right or wrong, it's just a fact. If I saw someone like Steven on a session, not only would I not want my students associating with him, if I had children, I wouldn't want them associating with him either. You tow the line in skating, you don't want to be an outcast and anyone associating with Steven would likely be shunned in return.

Steven, I think you're floating down a river called DENIAL and you need therapy. Normal men without issues do not wear womens clothng.

To be honest, I cannot believe I am replying to this, as I have figured out by now that you are either very shallow and do not know it, or you say these things just to get attention--knowing that the vast majority of us will not agree with you.

This must be a tough world for you--heaven forbid that we have fat people, people that like to dress differently, and so many other things that just aren't "normal".

If you enjoy going through life thinking that you are better than everyone, that is fine, but I think you have crossed the line when you tell someone they need therapy just because they want to dress differently.

Others have disagreed with Steven in an adult and mature manner, without actually insulting him and suggesting he is crazy. Maybe you could learn from that.

[Mrs Redboots]

Or boot covers - then you could be Mr Blue Boots. :)Joy of boot covers is that you can have as many different colours as you like! Mine were maroon yesterday and virulent pink today. Tomorrow (dance club) is a bit more sober - black or gold - and I shall take several pairs to France, of course, including my eponymous red ones.

Usually on Sundays I try to wear a pair in the liturgical colours of the season - purple in Advent and Lent, white for festivals, red for some festivals and green for "ordinary seasons".....

[Sk8Bunny]

ITA with that.

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary. Right or wrong, it's just a fact. If I saw someone like Steven on a session, not only would I not want my students associating with him, if I had children, I wouldn't want them associating with him either. You tow the line in skating, you don't want to be an outcast and anyone associating with Steven would likely be shunned in return.

Steven, I think you're floating down a river called DENIAL and you need therapy. Normal men without issues do not wear womens clothng.

Peaches- ITA

[luna_skater]

Steven, to change the colour of your boots, all you need is leather spray. I am a synchro skaters, and my team wears beige boots. All of our boots were originally white, and we use Magix brand leather spray to make them beige. You just need to prepare the leather with a Leather Dye Preparer, or nail polish remover. Then you just spray on a few light coats, waiting for it to dry in between. If you don't want it as permanant, do not prepare the leather first. This method is really no different than polishing your skates.

There is a warranty issue with some brands of skate. I think Risport is one of them. You would have to check with your skate company to see if you would be voiding any sort of warranty. But if your boots are more than a year or two old, your warranty is probably up anyway.

[dbny]

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary.

I don't know of any community that does like to be rocked or shocked, but I don't think you can speak for the entire skating community! Obviously, most of us here don't mind in the least, and are not "rocked or shocked" by Steven's unconventional attire.

In terms of what I would shelter my kids from, bigotry would come way before any kind of unusual attire. Actually, I can't think of any unusual attire that I would feel the need to shelter my kids from. Most pedophiles try to blend in and look as "normal" as possible, so I don't see what there is to fear about a man in women's clothes. Far better to pay attention to a person's behavior.

[SDFanatic]

Far better to pay attention to a person's behavior.

BINGO!

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Bootcovers, hmm, yes, I do have a couple pairs of them, but haven't regulated myself to wearing them that often. Course I wouldn't have so many nicks in them if I did wear them, choices, choices.

Course now that I sew, I can make my own matching boot covers!

Steven

[skatepixie]

Peaches- ITA

I would have to agree as well.

It also shocks me that Stephen is supprised when people dont accept him. Personally, I dont have a problem with what he does...its not my rink. But if it were...I would support the club in its choice. Its just better not to have the conflict. I go to the rink to skate. I dont need to see things that are unsetteling. I think that nyour supprise when people are shocked is a little like these people who have green mohalks and tons of percings and look supprised when you stare. I figure...well...they must not care enough to change it, and its not as if they were born deformed...so I can do as I please. I dont mind the way they dress...but I think that if people want to do that they have to realize that people are going to be shocked. They cant expect automatic acceptance.

[dbny]

I dont need to see things that are unsetteling.

I sure hope you don't watch the news! Now, what's going on in Iraq is unsettling, what Steven is doing is not hurting anyone. Priorities, please!

I am truly flabbergasted that anyone would be upset over seeing a man in a skating dress. Haven't you got anything real to worry about? Here's what upsets me: torture, rape, bombing, murder, child abuse, spousal abuse, ignorance, bigotry.

[MQSeries]

Haven't you got anything real to worry about? Here's what upsets me: torture, rape, bombing, murder, child abuse, spousal abuse, ignorance, bigotry.

I guess you don't worry about mundane, everyday stuff like "am I too fat?", "what am I going to wear today?", "what should I eat for dinner?", "can I afford this dress?", "should I buy this dress?", "is my health insurance going to cover this procedure?",...etc.

[SDFanatic]

OK! OK!

Lets not start belittling everyone!

After all, this discussion is supposed to be about some goofy guy that wears skirts and thinks he's normal.

Please people, lets stay on topic and not go off attacking each other!

Steven

[dani]

OK! OK!

Lets not start belittling everyone!

After all, this discussion is supposed to be about some goofy guy that wears skirts and thinks he's normal.

Please people, lets stay on topic and not go off attacking each other!

Steven


Now *that* is funny!!

;-)

Hugs!
Danielle

[batikat]

After all, this discussion is supposed to be about some goofy guy that wears skirts and thinks he's normal.

Please people, lets stay on topic and not go off attacking each other!

Steven

Aha
Now we are getting to it! The real reason Steven wears dresses - so that we can all have something to talk about! - as long as it's him! :lol:

dbny - I think you were probably on the right lines when you talked about exhibitionism.

Shall we examine the evidence - Steven you will need to answer some questions here

A) We all know about Stevens dress sense - but what do we know about his skating? So which is more important in Steven's life - the skating or the dresses.

B) Steven do you wear skirts/dresses anywhere else - or just skating?

C) Many transvestites try to look as much like women as possible (boobs/ make-up etc. ) but Steven doesnt'.

D) Most men would be extremely embarrassed to be caught wearing womens clothing. Steven isn't.

E)When Beckham wore his sarong it brought him many column inches and added to his celebrity status. Stevens dresses have brought him column inches and a minor celebrity status on this forum. We all know him!!

Steven are we getting close????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

F) Most people do care a great deal what other people think of them and try to conform to social norms as much as possible (at least in public). Exhibitionists don't. Steven doesn't.

Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with having exhibitionist tendencies but personally I wish Steven had not chosen ice-skating in which to launch himself as I dont' think it helps to get more boys into the sport. They are already put off by it's less than macho image and seeing men in skating dresses is not going to broaden it's appeal! And you can go on all you want about how the public should be more broad-minded etc - we should try to change their view etc. Well why? I dont think Steven or any man wanting to skate in a womans dress is worthy of crusading about. The only people the 'publics' views would affect is Steven and he obviously likes the attention or he would choose not to do it. As he said himself he doesn't feel 'compelled ' to wear a dress - he just likes it. Steven - am I wrong???

dbny - I usually agree with much of what you post but I was surprised that you brought up those wider issues as a way of undermining Skatepixies post. I thought she had a valid point. Steven was right too - this thread is about him - we aren't here to discuss the wider issues of the world. (If we all worried and grieved every time someone in this world was killed we would all be paralysed in to total inaction. That's not to say we dont' care - but we have to get on with our lives too).

Oh and one of the main factors in 'pants' becoming acceptable for women in the UK (though there are plenty of places where pants still aren't accepted - many schools that have a uniform for example) was due to all the men going off to the 1st world war and the women taking their places on the land and in the factories where trousers were the most practical. This was a huge number of women all making this change at the same time for a practical reason. Steven is one guy who wears skirts because he likes them!

So - I dont' have a problem with guys in skirts per se. I don't have a problem with Steven as a person. 8-) (I reckon we could have endless fun arguing the toss and I suspect not just about men in skirts). I don't have a problem with skating. I just don't think it is an appropriate mix! I appreciate there are thsoe who won't agree as there are those who will and those who have a different opinion altogether but I believe I am entitled to express it as is everyone in a civilised discussion.

Steven - how is the actual skating going?

[dobiesk8r]

Aha

A) We all know about Stevens dress sense - but what do we know about his skating? So which is more important in Steven's life - the skating or the dresses.



Well, my reaction upon reading this thread is that Steven had better be a mighty fine skater in order to pull his particular look off. ;)

[flo]

"We all know about Stevens dress sense - but what do we know about his skating? So which is more important in Steven's life - the skating or the dresses."

That's my point - this is not about skating. I don't really think there's much of an issue here. Steven does not want to skate on club sessions, and can skate on public sessions. The question above will be answered when/if Steven advances to a level where public sessions are no longer a vialble option for SKATING. Then it will be his decision to determine what's really important. Skating or being on a pedestal.

[skatepixie]

batikat-Thank you! I totally agree with you.

[SDFanatic]

Aha
Now we are getting to it! The real reason Steven wears dresses - so that we can all have something to talk about! - as long as it's him! :lol:
Well, I was more unhappy that everyone started attacking each other, you guys are better then that.


dbny - I think you were probably on the right lines when you talked about exhibitionism.
Yes, at the moment it would be considered exhibitionism, it wont be exhibitionism however if it ever becomes normal :P


Shall we examine the evidence - Steven you will need to answer some questions here

A) We all know about Stevens dress sense - but what do we know about his skating? So which is more important in Steven's life - the skating or the dresses.
Hmm, good question, before I knew how to skate, I did like the outfits, as whitnessed by my large collection of such outfits. Now that I started skating, I like that too (well, I do like a number of other things too) Obviosly I like skating more as I do occasionaly wear pants.


B) Steven do you wear skirts/dresses anywhere else - or just skating?
My current collection of skirts and dresses is mostly skating related, as such I do not often wear a skirt outside of skating. I have gone shopping, and what not after skating if I needed something. My collection of non skating dresses and skirts is expanding however, and I have been out and about in them (contrary to what the paper said, I did say some corrections were needed)


C) Many transvestites try to look as much like women as possible (boobs/ make-up etc. ) but Steven doesnt'.
Correct, crossdressers, of which I am eronisly grouped into, also do this.


D) Most men would be extremely embarrassed to be caught wearing womens clothing. Steven isn't.
Most men are embaressed yes, mainly because they attach such an astigmatism to clothing that looks female, or anything associated with being feminin. Western culture says women wear skirts, so most men are offended by that as it attacks their masculenity. Since I don't think clothing has a sex to it, or changes my sex, I have no issues in wearing whatever I want.


E)When Beckham wore his sarong it brought him many column inches and added to his celebrity status. Stevens dresses have brought him column inches and a minor celebrity status on this forum. We all know him!!
Hmmm, yes.


Steven are we getting close????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

F) Most people do care a great deal what other people think of them and try to conform to social norms as much as possible (at least in public). Exhibitionists don't. Steven doesn't.
Exhibitionists don't? Hmmm, gues I am one then!


ExhibitionistsNow there is absolutely nothing wrong with having exhibitionist tendencies but personally I wish Steven had not chosen ice-skating in which to launch himself as I dont' think it helps to get more boys into the sport. They are already put off by it's less than macho image and seeing men in skating dresses is not going to broaden it's appeal! And you can go on all you want about how the public should be more broad-minded etc - we should try to change their view etc. Well why? I dont think Steven or any man wanting to skate in a womans dress is worthy of crusading about. The only people the 'publics' views would affect is Steven and he obviously likes the attention or he would choose not to do it. As he said himself he doesn't feel 'compelled ' to wear a dress - he just likes it. Steven - am I wrong???
Hmm, well, time will tell if my unorthidoxed way of skating and being who I am is detrimental or not, many great traditional male skaters have gone before me, and they havn't made much of an impact.

Of course thats part of the problem with skating, it's not thought of as "macho" so obviously if your doing it, you must not be macho. Of course a female can be macho and be called a tomboy, which doesn't carry a negative connotation. A male showing some fimininty however is called a sissy or gay and that carries a huge negative connotation for most people.

A major problem of course is that skirts are just not acceptable, period! If the USFSA says that ladies can wear trousers in competition, I think those who do, will face some of the same harassment that I do now (not if it's adults only however, as adults are usually more tolerant and humble) Trousers are a bit more acceptable however, and eventualy it will be no biggie.

So I don't know, maybe the mix of who I am, and how I do it, might change the way people think about it, maybe.


dbny - I usually agree with much of what you post but I was surprised that you brought up those wider issues as a way of undermining Skatepixies post. I thought she had a valid point. Steven was right too - this thread is about him - we aren't here to discuss the wider issues of the world. (If we all worried and grieved every time someone in this world was killed we would all be paralysed in to total inaction. That's not to say we dont' care - but we have to get on with our lives too).

Oh and one of the main factors in 'pants' becoming acceptable for women in the UK (though there are plenty of places where pants still aren't accepted - many schools that have a uniform for example) was due to all the men going off to the 1st world war and the women taking their places on the land and in the factories where trousers were the most practical. This was a huge number of women all making this change at the same time for a practical reason. Steven is one guy who wears skirts because he likes them!

So - I dont' have a problem with guys in skirts per se. I don't have a problem with Steven as a person. 8-) (I reckon we could have endless fun arguing the toss and I suspect not just about men in skirts). I don't have a problem with skating. I just don't think it is an appropriate mix! I appreciate there are thsoe who won't agree as there are those who will and those who have a different opinion altogether but I believe I am entitled to express it as is everyone in a civilised discussion.

Steven - how is the actual skating going?
Skating? Whats that? OOOOOO! Thats that thing you do with those wierd looking metal things attached to the bottom of your feet on frozen water! (I thought you had said skirting, me and my silly one track mind!)

Lets see, skating is ok, my progressin is a bit slow however as I'm lacking a coach again since I am now at my summer rink. Summer ice starts in a couple weeks, and I am signed up to attend an adult skating clinic next month. I'm also signing up for a weekly edge clinic and ballet.

You probably want to know what level I'm at of course! Well, I haven't tested yet, but I am doing elements from many of the different levels. All my edges are pretty good, I can do all eight versions of three turns, some better then others, I do double as well as continous 3's also. Mohawks are better, rolling ones are still fickle however and change of edge pulls need more practice.

Jumps, my waltz is getting better, I was usually bending my free leg to get the lift instead of using more of my skating leg. People still harass me about my arm position as my coach had me do it in a harder position. Toe loop is mostly there, but my three turn into it needs work, 1/2 flip is there, need to keep the leg straighter, 1/2 lutz is there also, but needs a bit more work. Slacow, oh my, what can I say? Well, I will say it is better then it was, and it is coming together, and every now and then, it looks like a salcow! I was only showed how to do a loop once (for about 10seconds) and hence have not yet mastered in how to perform this one.

Spins, well, I don't have many under my belt, my best is the two foot, and I can also do two to one with a good number of revolutions and minimal travel. My forward scratch however is not really there, I have problems getting from my checked position, to a rotating position. As such I'm usually just travling all over the place with it. Backspin, I get a revolution or two, but usually travel, so I have much to work on with those.

Anything else?

Steven

[SDFanatic]

"We all know about Stevens dress sense - but what do we know about his skating? So which is more important in Steven's life - the skating or the dresses."

That's my point - this is not about skating. I don't really think there's much of an issue here. Steven does not want to skate on club sessions, and can skate on public sessions. The question above will be answered when/if Steven advances to a level where public sessions are no longer a vialble option for SKATING. Then it will be his decision to determine what's really important. Skating or being on a pedestal.


I never said I did not want to skate on club sessions! I have skated on club sessions, the cost and number of skaters on such sessions compared to what I get on a public session is signifigant however. Let me re-tell the difference, club ice costs $12 an hour, is restricted based on your level, has between ten to twenty-four skaters on it, and restricts me to pants only. Public sessons cost $1.50 for two hours (or three) typicaly only has three high level skaters on it with a total of usually six skaters, and I can wear pants or skirts, public sessions around here are not that restrictive in what you can do, depending of course on how many people are skating.

One can easily stand on a pedestal, especialy on two feet, one foot is a bit harder, and one foot in skates takes a little bit more, but most likely, not impossible. (standing on a pedestal with two feet is bad enough as some people will try to look up your skirt!)

Steven

[dbny]

dbny - I usually agree with much of what you post but I was surprised that you brought up those wider issues as a way of undermining Skatepixies post. I thought she had a valid point. Steven was right too - this thread is about him - we aren't here to discuss the wider issues of the world. (If we all worried and grieved every time someone in this world was killed we would all be paralysed in to total inaction. That's not to say we dont' care - but we have to get on with our lives too).


Actually, it was Peaches's post I was responding to, and it was in a moment of tiredness & weakness, because I really was trying not to go there. What really set me off, though, was her comment about not wanting her students or would-be children to associate with him. My daughter was the victim of a crazy coach who would not allow her students to talk to her (and they were the majority of my daughter's peers at the time), and the viciousness of that ostracism is still painful to me. I realize Steven is a grown-up and not likely to be hurt so badly as my daughter, but the emotional mom in me reacted, and that post was the result.

[flo]

Ok - From the article it said that you chose the public sessions, like you said, because of cost differences and inferred that it was your choice and it works for you. My point was what your decision will be when those sessions are not satisfactory for your level of skating (see - getting back to the skating issue). Then it will be your decision as to what's important to you. As I see it now - it's not a skating issue.

[SDFanatic]

Ok - From the article it said that you chose the public sessions, like you said, because of cost differences and inferred that it was your choice and it works for you. My point was what your decision will be when those sessions are not satisfactory for your level of skating (see - getting back to the skating issue). Then it will be your decision as to what's important to you. As I see it now - it's not a skating issue.

Given the huge difference between club and public skating, I don't see how skating on public sessions would be unsatisfactory. Fact is, some of the high level skaters find club ice unsatisfactory as they are unable to perform their higher level jumps due to the amount of people on the ice.

Skating on public ice is not really an issue compared to club ice.

I'm I missing something?

Steven

[Sk8Bunny]

Given the huge difference between club and public skating, I don't see how skating on public sessions would be unsatisfactory. Fact is, some of the high level skaters find club ice unsatisfactory as they are unable to perform their higher level jumps due to the amount of people on the ice.

Skating on public ice is not really an issue compared to club ice.

I'm I missing something?

Steven

Im not trying to speak for Flo, but to try and clarify your confusion, I think what she meant was some rinks dont allow skaters to perform certain elements on public session, so once a skater reaches a certain level, they cant do public sessions. Its not usually that a skater is banned from public, its just they cant practice their elements because the management wont let them, so their forced to do club ice. for instance, my rink used to have a policy that only up to single jumps were allowed on public ice. so once a skater started learning doubles, they couldnt practice on public ice sessions.

[SDFanatic]

Ok, thats what I was thinking, I had thought though that I had clarified that the rinks around here are not overly restrictive in what you can do during public sessions.

At least I thought I did.

Steven

[flippet]

Oh and one of the main factors in 'pants' becoming acceptable for women in the UK (though there are plenty of places where pants still aren't accepted - many schools that have a uniform for example) was due to all the men going off to the 1st world war and the women taking their places on the land and in the factories where trousers were the most practical. This was a huge number of women all making this change at the same time for a practical reason. Steven is one guy who wears skirts because he likes them!

Actually, as I'm sure you already know, skating tights and skirts are often required in some clubs, precisely because of their practicality. In tightly form-fitting clothing, the skater's line can be seen, and more easily corrected. Now, Steven could wear tights without a skirt---but I think the skirt is much more attractive! :lol: If that's the reason for making little girls wear skating tights and dresses (and it often is), then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Steven's just being practical! ;)

By the way, I'm not trying to jump on you personally, I'm just seeing things in your posts that I feel could use some light. Playing devil's advocate, if you will. Doesn't mean I hate you.

[flippet]

Ok - From the article it said that you chose the public sessions, like you said, because of cost differences and inferred that it was your choice and it works for you. My point was what your decision will be when those sessions are not satisfactory for your level of skating (see - getting back to the skating issue). Then it will be your decision as to what's important to you. As I see it now - it's not a skating issue.
I don't see much difference here between some guy wanting to wear a dress, and some woman wanting to wear jeans--there are those here who prefer to skate in jeans, and you'd never get them into a dress if their life depended on it. Some of them even do doubles. Many club sessions wouldn't allow either clothing preference. However, I don't see why it has to correlate to committment to skating. Just as someone in jeans can care about skating enough to practice enough on the sessions where they're allowed to be comfortable in what they wear--and increase their skills, a guy in a dress also ought to be able to.

My own skating level isn't too far above Steven's (and probably lower at the moment due to regression), and I also chose to skate public sessions because I couldn't afford club sessions and all the other fees that went with it. It had no bearing on how serious I was about skating, though. Even though I'm poor, I still committed to skate that $1 public session every day. I wanted more progression, but simply couldn't afford to pay for it. I imagine that's about where Steven is--the dress really isn't the issue here.

[SDFanatic]

Actually, as I'm sure you already know, skating tights and skirts are often required in some clubs, precisely because of their practicality. In tightly form-fitting clothing, the skater's line can be seen, and more easily corrected. Now, Steven could wear tights without a skirt---but I think the skirt is much more attractive! :lol: If that's the reason for making little girls wear skating tights and dresses (and it often is), then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Steven's just being practical! ;)

By the way, I'm not trying to jump on you personally, I'm just seeing things in your posts that I feel could use some light. Playing devil's advocate, if you will. Doesn't mean I hate you.


Hehe Flippet, I shall mention again, as I did mention it in this thread somewhere, I've had coaches mention that it was great that they could see my lines compared to traditional male attire.

Clubs are funny in what they choose to do, females can wear skirts or pants, shorts (some people disagree that shorts are appropriate skating attire however) jeans, and leotards. The club I'm in states no jeans or shorts, yet skaters routinely wear shorts or jeans and are not reprimanded for doing so. In fact, a friend of mine who skates at another club, was told to change out of her shorts, yet the skating director was wearing shorts and was not told to change. I know if I skated in jeans I would be reprimanded for wearing them, and a skirt? Well, we all know that answer.

A rink I visted a while back clearly stated that all skaters must wear tights on their rules board. In case some people are unaware, tights are a safety factor, they do provide some protection when you fall and such. Well I watched as two elderly gentelman took to the (public) ice wearing shorts, and no tights. Now I'm not sure if a lady tried to take the ice in shorts or a skirt and no tights would be told to go put some tights on, but I found that to be a most interesting twist.

All this has got me to do some thinking, I could skate in tights and a leotard without a skirt, but I think I will get the same kind of reaction, as the leotard is considered female, even though it was first worn by men. And most assuredly would draw too much attention if I went with suntan tights, as it seems to me that seeing the male leg is a bit too much for some people!

Steven

[Lissy]

All this has got me to do some thinking, I could skate in tights and a leotard without a skirt, but I think I will get the same kind of reaction, as the leotard is considered female, even though it was first worn by men. And most assuredly would draw too much attention if I went with suntan tights, as it seems to me that seeing the male leg is a bit too much for some people!

Steven


It's not so much seeing the male leg in tights and a leotard, but what about the um...package? :oops:
I guess though its no different than women who skate in dresses or leotards and have half their chest showing. And male ballet dancers wear tights all the time.

[flo]

Indeed Bunny - there's things that you can't do here on a public session also because it's really very crowded. And flippet - I do see something different in a guy wanting to wear a dress and a woman wanting to wear jeans. I'm not commenting on anyone's "serious or not serious' nature. What I said, and am saying is that at some point Steven, as do all of us, will have to make a decision as to what matters and what does not.
As far as "Steven's just being practical" - if you are intentionally wearing something/or for that matter doing something you know will not allow you to skate on club session - and if that's indeed what you want - that's hardly practical.
As an officer of my club, I would have no problem taking the time to listen and work with a person who's willing to compromise or work toward making the rest of the club's skaters (or at least a majority) comfortable but I haven't seen any evidence of compromise here at all. There are many issues to be delt with for clubs, and remember we're all volunteers, so time is valuable.

[SDFanatic]

It's not so much seeing the male leg in tights and a leotard, but what about the um...package? :oops:
I guess though its no different than women who skate in dresses or leotards and have half their chest showing. And male ballet dancers wear tights all the time.

Lol, yes, I've had this observation made before, and as I've said before, there is a bump there, but nothing that bad as compared to when I wear a swimsuit (thank heaven for prints!) But I am a man, and thats what I have.

And as I've said, it's funny too that I wouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt that would actually hide that "bump"

And yes, I really don't see it much differently either then the two bumps on a ladies chest (which are usually accented)

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Indeed Bunny - there's things that you can't do here on a public session also because it's really very crowded. And flippet - I do see something different in a guy wanting to wear a dress and a woman wanting to wear jeans. I'm not commenting on anyone's "serious or not serious' nature. What I said, and am saying is that at some point Steven, as do all of us, will have to make a decision as to what matters and what does not.
As far as "Steven's just being practical" - if you are intentionally wearing something/or for that matter doing something you know will not allow you to skate on club session - and if that's indeed what you want - that's hardly practical.
As an officer of my club, I would have no problem taking the time to listen and work with a person who's willing to compromise or work toward making the rest of the club's skaters (or at least a majority) comfortable but I haven't seen any evidence of compromise here at all. There are many issues to be delt with for clubs, and remember we're all volunteers, so time is valuable.

Ok, well I guess what matters to me is equality, and yes, I already know what your going to say, a man wanting to wear a skirt is not looking for equality. So the right for a lady to wear a skirt or pants, and a man to wear only pants in your book is equal.

Compromise? How can you compromise when one side is unwilling, and the other side cant? I am the one who has to compromise to skate on club ice, the club is unwilling to compromise at all. So tell me what kind of compromise could be made for a male to skate on club ice in a skirt then? Sure, I could skate on club ice in pants, that would be my compromise, and what exactly would the club be willing to compromise then?

Heck, even if I was doing an interpative event impersinating a female I wouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt on club ice. Females can wear skirts or pants on club ice or in an interpative event, while males can only wear pants on club ice, that is unfair, practical or not.

Compromising is about giving and taking, not just giving.

Steven

[flippet]

As far as "Steven's just being practical" - if you are intentionally wearing something/or for that matter doing something you know will not allow you to skate on club session - and if that's indeed what you want - that's hardly practical.
You know what I'm talking about--twisting the direction of the statement will get you nowhere with me. Clubs want people to not wear jeans for safety and ease of movement issues. Yet, when someone who happens to be male actually wears the outfit that addresses those issues, somehow it's wrong?


As an officer of my club, I would have no problem taking the time to listen and work with a person who's willing to compromise or work toward making the rest of the club's skaters (or at least a majority) comfortable but I haven't seen any evidence of compromise here at all. There are many issues to be delt with for clubs, and remember we're all volunteers, so time is valuable.
I agree with Steven...where's the compromise? And why is it Steven's responsibility to make the rest of the club "comfortable"?

As far as I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong), Steven's not even really lobbying for his club to accept him as he is--he's just pointing out the inequities of the situation.

[SDFanatic]

I agree with Steven...where's the compromise? And why is it Steven's responsibility to make the rest of the club "comfortable"?

Agreed, I am the one who has had to force the club to take action, action they should have taken on their own.

As far as I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong), Steven's not even really lobbying for his club to accept him as he is--he's just pointing out the inequities of the situation.

Eeeek, yes, sorry Flippet, I'll have to correct ya, I've had to lobby the club to accept me for who I am. And in all actuality, age discrimination was my major issue with the club. When they updated the club board with pictures of it's members, my picture was not put up. Why? Because I was an adult and only kids pictures were going to be put up. I'm a club member, just like anyone else, I paid my money and do my bit to help, and then to be told, had my picture taken just like everyone else. And then, "your an adult so were not putting it up" There are other things that have been going on as well as others doing things that are "kids" events, as such I had to lobby and say it was unfair to not include adults especialy if they had the same ability.

Weeks after I joined the club, the clubs rules were amended to include clothing guidlines and who could wear what, and I hadn't even skated on club ice yet! Most people in the club know me, and what I wear, as do their kids, most of them have no issues with me at all, and even let me play with or have me watch their kids. Some have even skated with me during public sessions and think I'm pretty "cool" and (the kids) don't understand why I can't skate on club ice in a skirt. I only know of one club person who dislikes my skirt wearing in earnest, her comments about it are unfounded and improper and disrespectful.

I could care less if the club would allow males to wear skirts, I am satisfied to compromise to wearing pants on the few times I would skate on club ice. I however think that the clothing guidlines are discriminatory, and as such, should be more equal. I can wear a skirt whereever else I want, nobody else has said I can't.

Sorry Flippet,

Steven

[batikat]

Actually, as I'm sure you already know, skating tights and skirts are often required in some clubs, precisely because of their practicality. In tightly form-fitting clothing, the skater's line can be seen, and more easily corrected. Now, Steven could wear tights without a skirt---but I think the skirt is much more attractive! :lol: If that's the reason for making little girls wear skating tights and dresses (and it often is), then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Steven's just being practical! ;).

Well every other male skater I've met (from my son and his friends to World class skaters) seems to find trousers perfectly practical and many women seem to find them more practical. There are plenty of World class male skaters who seem to have got to the top without having to wear a dress in order for their lines to be seen and corrected. I have seen the odd male wear black leggings for practices (only dancers mind) but I've never met one who felt they needed to wear a dress for practical reasons. Besides, from his comments, I don't believe Steven is that interested in the practicality of an outfit but in the look and feel of it.


By the way, I'm not trying to jump on you personally, I'm just seeing things in your posts that I feel could use some light. Playing devil's advocate, if you will. Doesn't mean I hate you


Glad to hear it - but then I never imagined you did. 8-)

dbny - thanks for explaining where you were coming from in your post. I'm sorry your daughter had such a miserable experience with a skating coach.


Steven- good to hear you do actually find time to do some skating in between all the striving for an equality most men wouldn't want if they got it :?? 8-) :lol:

Anyway I'm impressed you can do all the back 3's and double 3's - I find them a bit of a nightmare. We dont seem to do 1/2 flips or 1/2 lutzes here so I dont' know what those are. I can do a 1/2 loop but a full loop is still on the impossible list. :cry: :frus: Have you done any dance? or competitions? :?:

[angelskates]

Well, as a woman, I can't take my top off in public, let alone an ice rink and you don't see me lobbying for change, even though I am very comfortable with my body and maybe if I lobbied to make it acceptable it would become "the norm". Its get hot in summer you know! Men can take their tops off in public, I can't, that's not labelled discrimination, and I don't think it should be. The clubs own the ice, they make the rules and there comes a point where you should accept that - majority rules, but even if it didn't, the clubs still own that right.

In the public sesssions, sure, you should be able to wear what you like. Sacastic comments made to those who don't like your decision are uncalled for. If you want to wear a dress more that you want to skate, great, wear them outside of the rink, or wear them at the rink and be open to critisism, it is, after all, part of life that people will have differing opinions.

[SDFanatic]

Steven- good to hear you do actually find time to do some skating in between all the striving for an equality most men wouldn't want if they got it :?? 8-) :lol:
In all actuality, I'm hoping that the clothing restrictions will be lightened up, I know of many ladies who envy me (and no, not only for my legs) for what I am doing, for they do not posses to tenacity to say "Hey! I want to be able to compete in pants!" I think it's wrong that a man or women can't wear what they want to wear, even a judge told me, when they judge, there supposed to judge the skating, what the person wears plays no part in the score. And thats something I've said for a long time, skating should be about skating, if a female wants to wear pants, then why not? Yes, yes, lets not argue about tradition and what not again, but one of the contentions with some female skaters is the fact that they have to wear a skirt. And yes Batikat, I prefer the look and feel of an outfit, just ask my seamstress!

And you are sorta correct on the practicality of it, being more self concious of my attire and such lately, I am having a preference to tights. I do not feel as constricted as when I wear tights, nor am I aware of the looseness around my legs when I wear jazzpants. My leotards or just fine, and in all fairness, I don't feel the skirt that often (except that it keeps my butt warmer)


Anyway I'm impressed you can do all the back 3's and double 3's - I find them a bit of a nightmare. We dont seem to do 1/2 flips or 1/2 lutzes here so I dont' know what those are. I can do a 1/2 loop but a full loop is still on the impossible list. :cry: :frus: Have you done any dance? or competitions? :?:

Well, my back 3's still need more, especially whichever ones are harder, (I think outside? As I can't remember which one was more troublesom, and won't know till I get on the ice!) I can do double three's all the way from a medium speed to a standstill, and yes, I am most impressed with myself in that fact! And interestingly enough, we don't have 1/2 loops over here, I know it exsists, but my one coach said it was not worth learning. I don't have good balance yet to do full flips or lutz's yet, and going to the clinic is probably going to be a waste of money and time given my level.

As for dance, we did do some of that in LTS since most of the other adults did not want to do jumps or spins (I didn't even know how to do a bunny hop!) I can't remember the first dance pattern, I think the waltz? Very simple and what not, I have the pattern, but rarely practice it, I do plan on doing more though as it does help with edges and such.

Competitions, well, I signed up for two, the first one was down in Columbus, Holiday something, I forget, I was the only guy signed up so my event was going to be cancelled. They contacted someone who they thought would compete, and he said yes, so even though my spins stunk, I was going to go. The other person however found a new job and had to cancel out, so my event was cancelled.

My second competiton was going to be in Euclid, about three weeks before the competition, my coach found a 9-5 job and couldn't coach me anymore. At about the same time, my contracting work picked up, suffice it to say, I didn't get a whole lot of ice time in before the competition. On top of that, being the emotional kind of guy I was, some people had falsely accused me of some things and I was just a little bit peeved. So I ended up scratching out of that one, and it was bad, as I watched everything going on and got involved again, I wished I had brought my skates and done it anyways.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Well, as a woman, I can't take my top off in public, let alone an ice rink and you don't see me lobbying for change, even though I am very comfortable with my body and maybe if I lobbied to make it acceptable it would become "the norm". Its get hot in summer you know! Men can take their tops off in public, I can't, that's not labelled discrimination, and I don't think it should be. The clubs own the ice, they make the rules and there comes a point where you should accept that - majority rules, but even if it didn't, the clubs still own that right.

In the public sesssions, sure, you should be able to wear what you like. Sacastic comments made to those who don't like your decision are uncalled for. If you want to wear a dress more that you want to skate, great, wear them outside of the rink, or wear them at the rink and be open to critisism, it is, after all, part of life that people will have differing opinions.


Hi Angelskates, actually, while it is the clubs ice, and they can make their own rules and such, I've been finding out that it's not actually legal for them to have rules that are considered discriminatory. And yes, it has been ruled that saying one sex can wear this, and another that, is discriminatory, even if it is not traditional.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way (coming from a man) but I agree with you about not being able to take your top off. I think that it is discriminatory that a female can not take her top off. And why is it bad for a female to expose her top? Because someone said that it is bad, and hence, it's bad, just like my skirt wearing, people think it's bad, so guess what? I'ts bad!

But of course so many people say it's a bad and evil thing to see a womens breast, thats why so many outfits out there accent them and such, to tease people. And hence it makes it all that much more evil, it must be so shameful, course all you have to do is look at all the enhancments, padding, and what not out there to understand that the naked female breast will never be accepted in it's bare form (western society that is)

A womens naked breast doesn't do much for me, a covered one however.....

Steven

[sk8er1964]

And interestingly enough, we don't have 1/2 loops over here, I know it exsists, but my one coach said it was not worth learning.

Totally O/T - we do have half loops here. They are not used much, and when they are it is usually in an axel-1/2 loop-double salchow combo or something like that. AFAIK, many coaches don't teach it to "beginners" because it lands on the left foot, and that's also what can happen when someone bails from a loop. So the logic is, don't teach the 1/2 loop until the loop is solid, so that the "bail" won't be put into muscle memory.

OK, back to the topic at hand..... :D

[jp1andOnly]

Well, as a woman, I can't take my top off in public, let alone an ice rink and you don't see me lobbying for change, even though I am very comfortable with my body and maybe if I lobbied to make it acceptable it would become "the norm". Its get hot in summer you know! Men can take their tops off in public, I can't, that's not labelled discrimination, and I don't think it should be. The clubs own the ice, they make the rules and there comes a point where you should accept that - majority rules, but even if it didn't, the clubs still own that right.

In the public sesssions, sure, you should be able to wear what you like. Sacastic comments made to those who don't like your decision are uncalled for. If you want to wear a dress more that you want to skate, great, wear them outside of the rink, or wear them at the rink and be open to critisism, it is, after all, part of life that people will have differing opinions.


Up here in Canada, women are allowed to take off their tops. Several years back a group campaigned and won in Toronto. So there were shirt removing for a little while. Now, no one seems to really do it, though you do get an occasional person

[ahmskate]

deleted .

[batikat]

Totally O/T - we do have half loops here. They are not used much, and when they are it is usually in an axel-1/2 loop-double salchow combo or something like that. AFAIK, many coaches don't teach it to "beginners" because it lands on the left foot, and that's also what can happen when someone bails from a loop. So the logic is, don't teach the 1/2 loop until the loop is solid, so that the "bail" won't be put into muscle memory.



Sorry - still O/T - just to say that like with you the 1/2 loops are only ever used as part of a jump sequence and never taught as a 'jump' in their own right. Interesting that they wouldnt use it til the Loop is solid - to be honest I dont really connect the two jumps as being at all related so I dont think it is why my Loop doesn't land (my problem is take-off RBO edge related I think). I came across the 1/2 loop in a jumps group class where the coach starts with a 3 jump (waltz ) and keeps adding. Think it usually goes 3 jump, 1/2 loop, salchow, toe-loop, loop. Occasionally i get as far as the toe-loop :D ,but I am definitely 'loop-challenged' :frus:

[dani]

Totally O/T - we do have half loops here. They are not used much, and when they are it is usually in an axel-1/2 loop-double salchow combo or something like that. AFAIK, many coaches don't teach it to "beginners" because it lands on the left foot, and that's also what can happen when someone bails from a loop. So the logic is, don't teach the 1/2 loop until the loop is solid, so that the "bail" won't be put into muscle memory.

OK, back to the topic at hand..... :D

Although I totally blew my half loop in the final round this year I can normally do one (sort of).

Mine is better after I have bailed on a couple of jumps. I have now created my own combo based on a half loop but with other jumps - I think it is kind of cool - we will see if others like it if I can master it. I guess it is technically a sequence, though.

Hugs!
Danielle

[Mrs Redboots]

It's not so much seeing the male leg in tights and a leotard, but what about the um...package? :oops: Ever been to a ballet? Or seen men in those Lycra cycling shorts..... they leave nothing to the imagination, and at least a skirt does!

[flo]

Flippet - I don't want to "get anywhere with you". Also, I'm not speaking for Steven's club, if you read my post, I said MY club, and that I would be willing to listen and compromise if such a similar situation presented itself. I don't speak for the others or their clubs. And also if you will remember that in my very first post, I did suggest a compromise.

There has been a lot of talk about rules and regulations. This morning I was getting dressed for a funeral, and was thinking about this situation. I chose to wear something appropriate, nothing that would intentionally make anyone uncomfortable. This is out of respect and consideration for the other people. (and before anyone has a fit - I'm not comparing the rink to a funeral home). The point is that like it or not for places outside of the privacy of your home, there are expected modes of dress and conduct that responsible adults are expected to follow. Do we need rules to be expected to be reasonably considerate of other's? I'm not arguing that it's not anyone's "right" to wear what they choose. Steven knows that his choice of dress is not allowed at the club, and has made people at the public sessions uncomfortable. Is his desire to wear a skirt more important than the other's people's needs to be comfortable? I'm sure there's many people who would like to dress in a manner not appropriate for work, school, public places, but don't. Hopefully it's not just the rules and expectations that keep them from doing this, but that they are making a responsible adult choice.

Steven, as far as it being "your responsibility to make the others in the club feel comfortable" How about at least taking the responsibility to not make them uncomfortable? This is what I'm talking about as far as compromise.

[melanieuk]

I don't mind men wearing skirts or dresses if either:
(b) they are entirely masculine (like David Beckham, I quite fancied him in a sarong; or like Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake; or like John Kerr's kilt)
http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2003/images/kerrs.jpg
Photo by Barry Mittan (http://www.goldenskate.com/writers/mittan.shtml)

What I really cannot stand, is when men wear costumes that "take the piss" out of feminine beauty and grace. I saw a skating exhibition once, where two men came on dressed in white feathers as ballerina swans. They were both gross, fat, middleaged. They proceeded to clunk and clomp around in black boots and do quite a difficult clowning acrobatic act. They really made me wince, and I had to look away. It was just nasty.

Oh I thought they were brilliant. Didnt associate what they were doing with them taking "the piss out of feminine beauty and grace" at all.

[flo]

Great photo!

[SDFanatic]

There has been a lot of talk about rules and regulations. This morning I was getting dressed for a funeral, and was thinking about this situation. I chose to wear something appropriate, nothing that would intentionally make anyone uncomfortable. This is out of respect and consideration for the other people. (and before anyone has a fit - I'm not comparing the rink to a funeral home). The point is that like it or not for places outside of the privacy of your home, there are expected modes of dress and conduct that responsible adults are expected to follow. Do we need rules to be expected to be reasonably considerate of other's? I'm not arguing that it's not anyone's "right" to wear what they choose. Steven knows that his choice of dress is not allowed at the club, and has made people at the public sessions uncomfortable. Is his desire to wear a skirt more important than the other's people's needs to be comfortable? I'm sure there's many people who would like to dress in a manner not appropriate for work, school, public places, but don't. Hopefully it's not just the rules and expectations that keep them from doing this, but that they are making a responsible adult choice.

Steven, as far as it being "your responsibility to make the others in the club feel comfortable" How about at least taking the responsibility to not make them uncomfortable? This is what I'm talking about as far as compromise.
Very good points Flo, I understand your example for what one would wear to a funeral, and as you say, a funeral does not compare to the ice rink. But wouldn't a man be able to wear a skirt to a funeral of the same type and style that a lady would wear? There is nothing that I know of that says a man cannot wear a kilt or a skirt to a funeral.

As for work, school, and what not, take a look at the dress code, it does not say that girls can wear pants and skirts and boys can wear pants. There is no discriminatory sex difference in the clothing guidlines anymore at schools, workplaces, buisnesses and what not.

Me take the responsibility to not make people uncomfortable? Um, hello? Thats an impossibility, there is no way I could make everyone comfortable, even if I wore pants, us humans just don't work that way. There are far more people comfortable with me no matter what I wear, then those who are not. You have the right to be uncomfortable with what I wear, thats your choice, but I'll tell you what, I'm probably the nicest person you've ever met, but you'll never know because you can't get past the clothing I wear.

I can do what I want as long as I do what you say, how silly.

Steven

[Sk8Bunny]

But wouldn't a man be able to wear a skirt to a funeral of the same type and style that a lady would wear? There is nothing that I know of that says a man cannot wear a kilt or a skirt to a funeral.


Its not about can or can't wear - its about respect!

[flo]

From Steven: "But wouldn't a man be able to wear a skirt to a funeral of the same type and style that a lady would wear?"
This is what I'm talking about as far as rules vs. responsibility (and we're not talking about a disability here, but a choice of clothing).
Can you - sure, should you - ? Just because we can do something, does not mean we should.
I would just prefer to be considerate not to make others uncomfortable, for example at a funeral, rather than prove a point that I "could" do something. That's all. As far as you being "the nicest person I've ever met", the nicest people I've met put other's feelings before their own. Yes, it may be difficult, but who knows. Since your other approaches have not been as successful as you like, it may be worth a shot. You may hear: "Wow, I know Steven prefers to wear a skirt, but today he's in a tunic, or pants. He's being considerate of the rest of the skater's feelings. " If you're open, perhaps others will follow suit and consider your feelings.

[SDFanatic]

Its not about can or can't wear - its about respect!
Respect, yes, but who is to say that he is not being respectable? If he attends the funeral of his longtime friend and family, all of which who know the clothing choices of this person. Does it really make a difference if he's wearing skirt or trousers as long as it is respectable?

Steven

[SDFanatic]

From Steven: "But wouldn't a man be able to wear a skirt to a funeral of the same type and style that a lady would wear?"
This is what I'm talking about as far as rules vs. responsibility (and we're not talking about a disability here, but a choice of clothing).
Can you - sure, should you - ? Just because we can do something, does not mean we should.
I would just prefer to be considerate not to make others uncomfortable, for example at a funeral, rather than prove a point that I "could" do something. That's all. As far as you being "the nicest person I've ever met", the nicest people I've met put other's feelings before their own. Yes, it may be difficult, but who knows. Since your other approaches have not been as successful as you like, it may be worth a shot. You may hear: "Wow, I know Steven prefers to wear a skirt, but today he's in a tunic, or pants. He's being considerate of the rest of the skater's feelings. " If you're open, perhaps others will follow suit and consider your feelings.

Read above for funeral answer.

I've been there, done that, as I've said, I've worn pants on club ice, that was my compromise and my respct to not push the limits.

And I have put others people feelings before my own, why else would I put myself through some of the torture I have just to please them? But I'm sorry Flo, I'm an individual, not just another sheep in the flock, I prefer to be myself, and not what others think I should be. I respect their views, and I have tolerance to their individuality, which is more so then I can say for others. Being what I am not is more torture then being who I am, I'm sorry if you and others cannot accept my form of individuality as easily as I accept yours.

How soon you forget the people before you that pushed for women to have equal rights. All this would be a moot point if it were not for them.

Steven

[flo]

from Steven: "I'm sorry if you and others cannot accept my form of individuality as easily as I accept yours."
Read again, I as others have stated that I would be willing to compromise for one of my club members. You just have to remember that the clubs are made up of a "flock" of individuals. With this I'm done - take it as you may.

[batikat]

As for work, school, and what not, take a look at the dress code, it does not say that girls can wear pants and skirts and boys can wear pants. There is no discriminatory sex difference in the clothing guidlines anymore at schools, workplaces, buisnesses and what not.

Steven

Just a quick point that in the UK we have plenty of schools where the uniform is quite strictly skirts for girls and trousers (pants) for boys.




and I have tolerance to their individuality, which is more so then I can say for others. Being what I am not is more torture then being who I am, I'm sorry if you and others cannot accept my form of individuality as easily as I accept yours.



Steven you disappoint me - isn't it a bit too easy to take the moral high ground when you are the one who is being different and unusual? Of course if you are going to be different you have to accept all others, else it undermines your own argument. :) Clothing obviously doesn't matter to you the way it does to most people but most people feel that clothing is important so for example, we dress up for a job interview to show respect and that we are serious about the job and the company. We dress up to go to a party or out to dinner etc, if we belong to any sort of group we dress in the uniform if there is one and how we dress says a lot about us, (mine mostly says that I'm a lazy slob I'm sure! 8-) ), yours appears to say you are unconventional and non-conformist. :P

For you individuality and tolerance of individuality are of the highest virtue but there are other people for whom avoiding conflict, harmony and fitting in are more important and in many ways I would see these people as being the glue that holds society together. The feeling of discomfort when somebody expresses their individuality rather forcefully is a natural reaction to someone who is stretching the boundaries of society. If we all went haring off like little whizz-bangs in all directions without regard to social norms then society disintegrates. It's good to have some whizz-bangs of course - keeps things lively and interesting - it'd be a dull world otherwise. :D

[angelskates]

I respect their views, and I have tolerance to their individuality, which is more so then I can say for others. Being what I am not is more torture then being who I am, I'm sorry if you and others cannot accept my form of individuality as easily as I accept yours.


Steven, tolerence is accepting and respecting peoples differing views, no matter if they are the same as yours. To me, it sounds like you are calling people who disagree agree with your view "silly" and what not. This is not respect or tolerence for their different point of views, it's saying your view is right and everyone else's is "silly". People also have the "right" to disagree with you, ask their kids not to associate with you, you are labelling them and that is disrespectful. Tolerence and respect is a two-way street.

It sounds like you think that some people are disrepectful and intolerent because they disagree with your view and your "right" to wear a dress, but you are being intolerent and disrespectful to their view too! Tolerence is all about compromise and finding a common ground and I feel that this is more important that pushing your "right" to wear a dress.

[SDFanatic]

Yes Flo, I know, we just keep hashing and re-hashing this thing, I just keep hearing "but"

Oh my Batikat, I'm not sure what to say! (except that you might want to check with the EOC, they don't restrict skirts to girls only anymore)

Steven

All are lunatics, but he who can analyse his delusion is a philosopher. - H.L. Mencken

You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Gandhi

Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. - T. S. Eliot

Nothing endures but change. - Heraclitus

Every man is the architect of his own fortune. - Appius Claudius

Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. - Goethe

Always give your best; never get discouraged, never be petty; always remember others may hate you. But those who hate you don't win, unless you hate them. - Richard Nixon

It seems to me that the secret of true happiness in life is to know what you are and then be content to be that, in style, head up and proud, and not yearn to be something else. - Robert Anson Heinlein

The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

I cannot give you the formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure, which is: try to please everybody. - Herbert Bayard Swope

To be nobody-but-yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. - EE Cummings

"The reasonable man adjusts to the world around him. the unreasonable man expects the world to adjust to him. Therefore a progress is made by unreasonable men." -George Bernard Shaw

"The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else"

"You are not free if you are only free to be like everyone else."

[SDFanatic]

Steven, tolerence is accepting and respecting peoples differing views, no matter if they are the same as yours. To me, it sounds like you are calling people who disagree agree with your view "silly" and what not. This is not respect or tolerence for their different point of views, it's saying your view is right and everyone else's is "silly". People also have the "right" to disagree with you, ask their kids not to associate with you, you are labelling them and that is disrespectful. Tolerence and respect is a two-way street.

It sounds like you think that some people are disrepectful and intolerent because they disagree with your view and your "right" to wear a dress, but you are being intolerent and disrespectful to their view too! Tolerence is all about compromise and finding a common ground and I feel that this is more important that pushing your "right" to wear a dress.
Hi Angelskates, yes, I am calling them silly, silly because the arguments they use make no sense. Ok, so say it's silly for men to wear skirts as it's not traditional, I would say it's silly that women wear mens pants. You would say thats silly because it's normal for women to wear pants, and I would say, yes, only because Amelia Jenks Bloomer thought it was silly that she couldn't wear pants. So yes, I find it silly that I can only wear pants when women can wear pants or skirts, and many other forms of male clothing (including a tie!) and not be called silly. The arguments I hear as to why I can't wear a skirt make no sense to me, and hence, are silly. But yes, I do understand their view, but since I don't comply, them I would be disrespecting thier view, it's a no win situation no matter what I do unless I crawl under a rock.

The disrespectful are those who do not have a tolerance for my expression of individuality by automaticly assuming that I am something I am not. I am not a child molesting sexual predator just because I wear a skirt, for people to assume as such is disrespectful, and for some unkown reason, I feel it's my goal to change such assumptions.

Steven

[batikat]

Oh my Batikat, I'm not sure what to say! (except that you might want to check with the EOC, they don't restrict skirts to girls only anymore)



Goodness me! - have I rendered you almost speechless? - do I get a prize?
:twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SDFanatic]

Goodness me! - have I rendered you almost speechless? - do I get a prize?
:twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes! How about a hair scrunchie? As I can't really use them!

Steven

[batikat]

Yes! How about a hair scrunchie? As I can't really use them!

Steven


Great! - what colours you got????? (only joking!!!) :lol:

[SDFanatic]

Great! - what colours you got????? (only joking!!!) :lol:
Just got a black one with silver dots, a green sparkly one, a red with yellow trome one, a, ah, oh wait a minute! You said only joking! Oh well, when I'm silly, I just put then on my wrist :P

Steven

[Madame Saccoche]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steven, you are a philosopher and a gentleman. :bow:

[SDFanatic]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steven, you are a philosopher and a gentleman. :bow:
:oops:

Steven

[luna_skater]

Steven, you are famous. You have your own thread over at FSU. :bow:

[IceDoctor]

It's not the fact that you wear dresses...it's the fact that you want to play with all the little girls and touch their dresses.

[twokidsskatemom]

ITA with that.

The skating community doesn't like to be rocked, shocked, or see anything out of the ordinary. Right or wrong, it's just a fact. If I saw someone like Steven on a session, not only would I not want my students associating with him, if I had children, I wouldn't want them associating with him either. You tow the line in skating, you don't want to be an outcast and anyone associating with Steven would likely be shunned in return.

Steven, I think you're floating down a river called DENIAL and you need therapy. Normal men without issues do not wear womens clothng.


nether dh or I would take our kids off the ice. Life is about differences, and we are teaching them to think out of the box about life.
You wear what makes to happy.Its not illegal.

[SDFanatic]

It's not the fact that you wear dresses...it's the fact that you want to play with all the little girls and touch their dresses.

I dare you to prove the words that spew from your mouth, and when you can't, I, and many others, will watch as you eat your words.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Steven, you are famous. You have your own thread over at FSU. :bow:

I do?!?!??!? WOW! It's been ages since I've been over there (hurrying off to go look!)

Steven

[jazzpants]

Steven, you are famous. You have your own thread over at FSU. :bow:He's also famous over at RSSIF too!!! :D :bow:

You GO, Steven!!! You GO!!!

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=40B36DCA.95D5FDD5%40Idontexist.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26group%3Drec.sport.skating.ice.fig ure

[SDFanatic]

OMG! (Gal darn it, there's no fainting smilie!)

Steven

[dooobedooo]

Reading the posts on the other board just reminded me ...

Many years ago I used to sing alto with a large and successful choir. Choirs are generally short on tenors, but our choir boosted the male ranks with one youngish lady of Japanese appearance who used to sing tenor alongside the men. When we did concerts, she used to line up in the male group and blend in nicely, dressed as she was in full male concert kit of black dinner jacket, tie and trousers. Meanwhile, we higher-voiced ladies were assembled in front, wearing matching white evening blouses and ankle-length black skirts ....

She did attract quite a bit of attention during practices, and was right in line for first pick of the men. Mind you, I do still think she could quite easily have sung with the alto's if she'd wanted to ......

[sk8er1964]

I dare you to prove the words that spew from your mouth, and when you can't, I, and many others, will watch as you eat your words.

Steven

Steven - I would assume that that poster was a troll -- they register, post one or two inflammatory things, then diasppear into the wordwork.

[SDFanatic]

Steven - I would assume that that poster was a troll -- they register, post one or two inflammatory things, then diasppear into the wordwork.
I know, I shouldn't respond to such drivil, it just annoyes me as to the lack of knowledge some people posses.

Steven

[jazzpants]

I know, I shouldn't respond to such drivil, it just annoyes me as to the lack of knowledge some people posses.But Steven, the troll knows better than that. He (general he... could be she) is just doing it to GET A REACTION from you!!! The best way to deal with a troll is NOT to respond to one...

[SDFanatic]

But Steven, the troll knows better than that. He (general he... could be she) is just doing it to GET A REACTION from you!!! The best way to deal with a troll is NOT to respond to one...
Yes, guess I'm a bit bullish when someone lies about me.

Steven

[jazzpants]

Yes, guess I'm a bit bullish when someone lies about me.

StevenSing this with me...

Troll, troll, troll your computer!
Gently down the (network) stream!!!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...
Delete is such a dream!!!" ;) :P

(Alright! Alright! So you can't delete it, but you CAN ignore it!!!)

[SDFanatic]

Sing this with me...

Troll, troll, troll your computer!
Gently down the (network) stream!!!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...
Delete is such a dream!!!" ;) :P

(Alright! Alright! So you can't delete it, but you CAN ignore it!!!)

LOL! I love it! I did some thinking, and my only problem I guess in not responding is that it would add more credibility for those who think that way, so being me of course, I have to say that that is not what I am.

Steven