Governing Council - Adults

[Ice T]

Since the other thread on GC is more focused on the 12/4 plan, I thought I would start a different thread.

Does anyone know what decisions were made regarding the adult issues?

[Terri C]

AFAIK, there is a proposal that will make the Adult Skating Committee a permanent committee of USFS!!! The passing of this should be a no- brainer!! :D :D :D

[jazzpants]

Any news on adding the rule to allow women to wear trousers at adult competitions? :mrgreen: :P

[icedancer2]

They haven't posted anything about the trousers or the new Adult MITF proposal, BUT there was a decision about the lowering of the standards for the Adult and Masters Dance Test track:

5. TR 49.00 Schedule of Compulsory Dance Tests, page 219-221 (submitted with the agreement of the Tests and Adult Skating Committees)

<MOVE> to amend TR 49.00 to adjust the Passing Averages for adult and masters dance tests

The new passing averages will be as follows:

Level Adult Dance Test Masters Dance Test

Current Amended Current Amended
Preliminary n/a n/a Pass/Retry Pass/Retry
Pre-bronze n/a n/a 2.7 2.7
Bronze n/a n/a 3.0 3.0
Pre-silver 3.7 3.6 3.4 3.3
Silver 4.0 3.9 3.7 3.6
Pre-gold 4.2 4.0 3.9 3.7
Gold 4.5 4.2 4.2 3.9
International 4.8 4.5 4.5 4.2


Rationale: After several months of dedicated work between the Dance Committee and the Adult Skating Committee, this modification in test passing averages was agreed to. The differences between the standard and adult passing averages both give credit for the skills required for execution of the solo and acknowledge differences in test execution for those dance tests not requiring a solo (pre-silver and international). Masters dance test passing averages were adjusted to remain 0.3 below the corresponding adult dance test.

Financial Impact: None

This table is hard to read -- you will have to go to the www.usfsa.org news forum -- but basically what they have done is lower the passing standard for the Adult test and Masters dance tests--

This is really really frustrating for a person like myself who started testing Adult 14 years ago (gosh, it's been that long!) -- the thinking being that the test is EXACTLY the same as the Standard test except you don't have to do the solo. Same standards as the regular test.

Now the standard will be lower. Sure, maybe I'll go back and test some dances because gee, it'll be easier, but on some level it just makes me want to say, "Well, forget it -- I'll just go to social dance sessions and have fun instead! (like in about an hour!)

Arrrgghhh! :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus: :?? :twisted: 8-) 8-) 8-)

[jenlyon60]

There was a discussion at length on the Yahoo Groups ice dancers group concerning lowering the Adult dance passing marks...

Lots of pros and cons.

[icedancer2]

Yeah, I know -- I'm on that list too.

I don't see any of the "pro" reasons myself -- it just feels really degrading. I mentioned the changes to some adults that were at our session tonight, and they were pretty disgusted.

I'm wondering if this rule change will discourage Adult dancers from testing anymore -- although I haven't tested in a LONG time (due to lack of good male training partners and/or coaches in my area) I would love to someday finish my dances.

Now I'm thinking maybe not. Like: why bother? :cry:

[jenlyon60]

My personal opinion is that it will really take a couple of years for a "quality difference" to sink in. I think at least at first we will continue to see judges expect the same basic quality as in a solo-less standard track dance, but the number assigned will just be lower.

I wasn't thrilled with the idea either. But I know some adults (middle age, not 25-30 years old) who go out on tests and do their very best, but in terms of extension and knee bend, just can't physically match the skating of a teenage, or even a 25-30 year old. If this keeps them skating/testing, I guess then it will have worked.

I think what was needed more, was a codification of expectations for an "adult-track"' test that defines different expectations other than "no solo". E.g. weaker extensions, shallower knee bend, smaller pattern.

[sk8ndancr]

I also am disappointed in a way, that they passed the lower standards for adult and masters. I have been working for years on testing these dances, and am about to test my 2nd pre-gold. I think they should have made some provision for letting those adults who have passed with a standard mark up till now to cross over to the standard track somehow without having to retest all the dances again. I would be willing to start soloing if I could continue from where I am now, instead of spending a lot of money and time to retest and retrain all the dances I have passed already. It doesn't seem fair that those who pass with a lower mark be awarded the same level as those of us who have tested, and failed, and tested again until we earned the standard mark.

[daisies]

As a judge, I can tell you that, at least to me, this lower passing average would make no difference in how the test is judged. I don't judge dance, but I do judge MIF, and when I do I look at whether or not a test is of the quality of the LEVEL, not of the mark. I don't look at a Novice move and say that is a 3.5 move. I look at it and say that is right on for where a Novice move should be, and then award it whatever the passing mark happens to be; in that case, 3.5. If the move exceeds what is expected of a Novice, I may give it a 3.6 or 3.7. But it's all relative to what the assigned passing mark is. If they were to lower the Novice passing average to, say, 3.4, I would still do the same thing: If the move is right on where Novice should be, it would get a 3.4. If it's better, it would get a 3.5 or 3.6. It's like when the median mark is established after the first skater competes. You take the median and "compare" from there. A passing average on a test is like that: It's the median mark from which you compare. When all is said and done, it's just a number.

The one thing I did not like about this new rule is that someone got up and moved that it be declared urgent, and that passed. Meaning, as soon as new test sheets can be made up, it goes into effect, instead of waiting until Sept. 1. That means the people who were steadfastly opposed to this new rule won't have the four or so months to test at the higher mark before the rule goes into effect. It is essentially immediate, and that to me was unnecessary, especially given how close the vote was on this at GC. It was the only issue to require a count from the floor.

[sk8pics]

As a judge, I can tell you that, at least to me, this lower passing average would make no difference in how the test is judged. I don't judge dance, but I do judge MIF, and when I do I look at whether or not a test is of the quality of the LEVEL, not of the mark.

Daisies --So then do you have a different level quality in mind for adults on the moves in the field tests? When they say the passing average is lower for adults, they're saying to allow for a slightly lower quality, right? I'm just wondering.

Pat

[flo]

The adult pair proposal passed. Details will be posted on the USFSA site under adults.

[Stormy]

The members of my club who went don't know if these passed

-Age rule changes for Adult Synchro skaters
-Adult fill-up rule
-Adult ladies to wear pants for competing

Anyone know if these passed, especially the age change for synchro? Big THANKS to US Figure Skating for being so timely in updating the site! :frus:

[flo]

Any news on the Adult committee being at regular committee level?

[Spreadeagle]

Any news on the Adult committee being at regular committee level?

Yes, I did hear through the grapevine that Adult is now a regular committee

[backspin]

Sk8ndancr: I'm in a similar boat; I'm scheduled to test my first pre-gold in a month. I just heard about the standard change this morning, & that made up my mind. After this test, I'm going back to silver & starting over on the solo track. It matters to me because I also coach--before it seemed not that big a deal, since the standard was the same, but now it will hurt my credibility too much to have " only" gone through the adult track--even though I'm planning to do at least a couple of internationals. This sucks! :frus:

[icedancer2]

Sk8ndancr: I'm in a similar boat; I'm scheduled to test my first pre-gold in a month. I just heard about the standard change this morning, & that made up my mind. After this test, I'm going back to silver & starting over on the solo track. It matters to me because I also coach--before it seemed not that big a deal, since the standard was the same, but now it will hurt my credibility too much to have " only" gone through the adult track--even though I'm planning to do at least a couple of internationals. This sucks! :frus:

Backspin -- are you going to start over in SOLO dance or STandard track? -- is Silver where you first started doing the Adult tests?

I started my Adult tests in Pre-Silver -- if I wanted to do standard track, my understanding is that I would have to start over at Pre-Silver!!

Forget it. I still think the passing of this basically stinks. I understand what daisies is saying, but I still think the quality of passing will be lower, eventually -- and that makes me wonder what about those of us that are in pre-gold land!!???

At least I wasn't going to test in a month... -- then I can't imagine how I would feel!! :frus: :frus: :frus:

[backspin]

Icedance2--

Sorry, yes you're right; I'm going back & starting on the Standard track--which means I have to do my silvers over again. Last year they changed that rule--solos now start at silver instead of pre-silver. I also think that was a horrible decision, but at least it will now save me from having to drop down 2 levels! 8O

[sk8ndancr]

Am supposed to test Paso on Saturday. Wonder how it will be judged; the old way or the new way? I was hoping to get thru the level before the change went into effect; so much for that!! I wonder what these changes will do to free dance testing....I passed Junior free (standard) last month; will I still be able to do the next standard free dance after the corresponding adult gold compulsories, or will those rules change too? (Not that I would have to worry about testing any of that very soon!!!!!) So much work and money and time to have the rules changed on you all of a sudden. It's very discouraging. I am an older skater and don't know if my body has the time left in it to go back and do it all over again before it self-destructs! I wanted to do as much as I could before I got too old to do it anymore!

[daisies]

So then do you have a different level quality in mind for adults on the moves in the field tests?

Well, this is entirely different. When an adult takes an adult MIF test, it's not the "novice" or "intermediate" or whatever test. It's the "adult bronze" or "adult gold," etc., test. So although I would observe an adult skater perform what is an intermediate move on the adult gold test, I am assessing whether or not that skater is skating per the level of an adult gold skater, not an intermediate skater. (It would get really confusing if you did it the other way around, since the adult MIF tests don't parallel the standard track, and each test borrows from different standard-track levels.)

When they say the passing average is lower for adults, they're saying to allow for a slightly lower quality, right?

Not necessarily. Remember, the adult dance tests have no solo aspect. That reason alone merits a lower passing average. And I wouldn't look at it in terms of "quality." There are simply going to be some things an older skater will look "different" doing than a younger one, and if a judge is a stickler for one of those things, the new mark allows for some flexibility.

Am supposed to test Paso on Saturday. Wonder how it will be judged; the old way or the new way? I was hoping to get thru the level before the change went into effect; so much for that!!

It will be judged the "old" way. Although the new passing averages were declared urgent, they won't be in effect by Saturday. The test committee chair needs time to make up new forms, etc. I am not sure when this will be accomplished, but I can guarantee it won't be by this weekend!

[icedancer2]

Icedance2--

Sorry, yes you're right; I'm going back & starting on the Standard track--which means I have to do my silvers over again. Last year they changed that rule--solos now start at silver instead of pre-silver. I also think that was a horrible decision, but at least it will now save me from having to drop down 2 levels! 8O

I guess I'm still confused about this -- although the solos were no longer required on the Standard Track pre-silver test as of last June, was there still an Adult track for this level at all? I had assumed not, but the test forms still ask the judge to circle whether the test is Standard Adult Masters or Solo.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/JP_DN-Fourteenstep.pdf

One of the judges in our area told me that the test was still considered an "Adult" test -- makes no sense to me, since the passing scores were the same for the Adult and Standard tester and no one had to do a solo anymore.

Well, I guess I'm beating a dead horse --- I really don't understand at all why this happened and what it does to those of us who are far enough along in the testing structure to not want to turn back, but don't want to be judged at a lower level.

Okay, I'll stop now.

[flo]

I have always seen this much as Dasies. It's not a question of lower quality, but realizing there are real differences in kids and adults. Although many of you feel it's something of a lesser accomplishment to test and be judged at a "lower" adult level, no one's asking you to skate at a "lower" level or with less quality.

[backspin]

I just sent an email to the USFSA to verify where one has to go back to in order to pick up testing on the Standard track. It makes the most sense that it would be Silver, since I've already passed the pre-silver with the standard scores, but I thought I'd better make sure.

Now in June, instead of my Kilian, I'll hopefully be testing 2 silvers. :( I hope I can get them polished up in time, but I don't want to waste much time getting them out of the way! Aaagggghhh.

--------------

Edited to add that in order to retest my silvers, assuming (praying!) that I pass them all on the first try, it's going to cost me $180.00, not to mention a couple months of lessons and training time.......... :frus:

[manleywoman]

So regarding dance, here's a question:

If I, as an adult, have always taken the Standard track tests with solos, do I keep continuing on with the standard track? in other words, does this new ruling affect my situation in any way? I've passed all my Pre-Silvers.

[dani]

I agree with you Flo. However, part of testing is finding out if your skating meets a certain standard or not. Now, even if it does, you really won't know for sure. And, even in a perfect world, if you needed a 3.3 and got a 3.2 which is now passing, you won't ever pass the non-solo test to the level that you wished.

Of course, I also agree with Jen's comment that it is crucial that judges learn what is basically a second passing standard! If the moves have taught us anything it is that judges can't really tell the difference between a 3.3 and a 3.0 - they can just tell if a move is passing or not (or if we should lose weight ;-). One thing that I think helps with this is that they have two choices on the same form which highlights that there is a different standard. I wish on moves they had a way or reason to point out that, for example, my slide chasse excersize in my silver moves test was up to Intermediate standard. Forgetting marks for a second, there would then be 3 choices - failed silver, passed silver, and would have passed Intermediate. I think this would be great feedback to me as an adult move tester as well as an aid to the judge that says that hey - there is a second standard!

Just my thoughts,
Danielle

ps) I wish there was a way when I take my gold moves that, if I am up to Standard track Intermediate that I could skate the missing two moves and pass Intermediate in the same test!

I have always seen this much as Dasies. It's not a question of lower quality, but realizing there are real differences in kids and adults. Although many of you feel it's something of a lesser accomplishment to test and be judged at a "lower" adult level, no one's asking you to skate at a "lower" level or with less quality.

[daisies]

If I, as an adult, have always taken the Standard track tests with solos, do I keep continuing on with the standard track? in other words, does this new ruling affect my situation in any way? I've passed all my Pre-Silvers.

No, it would have no effect. You would continue to do standard track if you choose to do so. You could also switch to the adult track at your current level, if you prefer. However -- as has always been the case, even before this new rule -- if you do switch to the adult track and pass, say, the adult silver dance test, you could not then switch back to standard and take the standard pre-gold. You would have to go back and pass the standard silver test in order to progress on the standard track. But if you've been doing standard track all along, there is no impact.

[blue111moon]

The lower passing average for adults makes sense if you consider that the adult track was originally conceived to encourage adults to take up skating AS adults. It is unrealistic to expect the average adult to have the same flexibility and adeptness as the average child. The purpose of establishing the adult track wass to encourage adults to test while not expecting them to perform as children. There are many people who find the idea of NOT being judged at the same standard as our grandchildren to be a good thing and think its nice that USFSA has recognized this.

It seems to me that if you find the idea of a lower passing average insulting, then the solution is to simply test within the standard structure. No one says you can't do both.

[icedancer2]

I just sent an email to the USFSA to verify where one has to go back to in order to pick up testing on the Standard track. It makes the most sense that it would be Silver, since I've already passed the pre-silver with the standard scores, but I thought I'd better make sure.

Now in June, instead of my Kilian, I'll hopefully be testing 2 silvers. :( I hope I can get them polished up in time, but I don't want to waste much time getting them out of the way! Aaagggghhh.

--------------

Edited to add that in order to retest my silvers, assuming (praying!) that I pass them all on the first try, it's going to cost me $180.00, not to mention a couple months of lessons and training time.......... :frus:

Let us know what they say regarding the test levels -- I am very curious!!

Good luck with all things dance!!

[Betty]

The one thing I did not like about this new rule is that someone got up and moved that it be declared urgent, and that passed. Meaning, as soon as new test sheets can be made up, it goes into effect, instead of waiting until Sept. 1. That means the people who were steadfastly opposed to this new rule won't have the four or so months to test at the higher mark before the rule goes into effect. It is essentially immediate, and that to me was unnecessary, especially given how close the vote was on this at GC. It was the only issue to require a count from the floor.

Was the someone one of the Harvath's? They certainly expressed how they felt about this on another list.

[daisies]

Was the someone one of the Harvath's? They certainly expressed how they felt about this on another list.

No, the Harvaths weren't there. I believe it was Sandy Lamb.

[tazsk8s]

Any news on adding the rule to allow women to wear trousers at adult competitions? :mrgreen: :P

I talked to one of our club's delegates this morning and asked her about this. Her answer was that it passed with little or no discussion.

[Stormy]

Anyone planning on wearing pants to compete? Just curious. I wouldn't mind wearing them to test...but I doubt my coach would let me. She barely let me wear my gloves during my Intermediate Moves test the other day. :)

[Ice T]

There was supposed to be discussion about revision of the Adult Moves, specifically the Gold Moves. Does anyone know what happened with that?

[skaternum]

There was supposed to be discussion about revision of the Adult Moves, specifically the Gold Moves. Does anyone know what happened with that?

As I understand it, that was for discussion only by the Adult Skating Committee. There was never an intention to discuss anything on the floor of the GC general meeting. I.e., there was no Request for Action about the Adult Moves.

There was, however, a lively discussion of the Moves at the Adult Skating Committee meeting at Adult Nationals.

[sk8pics]

There was, however, a lively discussion of the Moves at the Adult Skating Committee meeting at Adult Nationals.

Are you able to share any of that discussion with us?

[jazzpants]

I talked to one of our club's delegates this morning and asked her about this. Her answer was that it passed with little or no discussion.YIIIIIIPEEEEEE!!!!! :mrgreen:

No, it doesn't mean that I won't wear a skating dress at competition, but if I have the option of wearing jazzpants, I'm gonna wear it! (Of course, I still would have to go through my skating coaches for this one too. DUM dum-dum dum!!!) :mrgreen:

Time to start looking for some nice jazzy pieces to wear those pants with!!!

Stormy: My primary coach wouldn't let me wear my gloves to test either! He asked for my gloves right before I went on the ice to warm up for a competition and the same before both tests.

[singerskates]

We Canadian skaters have no option at the moment but to do the standard kid tests. We have no adult testing program at the moment. That all might change at this year's Skate Canada AGM in June. Skate Canada had all of us first ever Canadian Adult Championship competitors do a survey asking us all kinds of questions about competition, testing and so on which will be do May 15.

I've already done the questionaire. I feel that those who are 30 and over should have the option in Canada to be able to do testing in an adult track that would not require as much to pass each level (quality and certain items moved to a level in between adding two extra levels which we currently don't have; pre-prelim and pre-junior bronze in FS, dance would stay the same except that extentions and depth of edge would be more leniate). This is what I wrote in.

Right now we jump from nothing in freeskating in Canada to passing the kid's prelim FS test which has these items;
bunny hop
waltz jump
salchow
loop
flip
toe loop/toe loop combo
forward upright spin (2 revs... could change to 3 revs)
sitspin (2 revs... could change to 3 revs)
backspin (2 revs)
camel (2 revs)
and then we do a 2 minute - or + 10 sec. FS program incorporating all these elements.

I will like to see a pre-prelim test that would have only these elements;
bunny hop
waltz jump
salchow
toe loop
half flip
waltz/toe loop combo
forward upright spin (2 revs)
sitspin (2 revs)
two foot spin (3 revs)
and then we do a 1 minute 30 sec. - or + 10 sec. FS program incorporating all these elements.

Pre-junior bronze could have ;
flip
lutz
split jump
loop/ loop combo
lutz/loop combo
forward corkscrew (scratch) spin (4 revs... )
flying sitspin (2 revs)
back corkscrew (stratch) spin (3 revs)
camel (4 revs)
attitude spin (either forward or back) (3 revs)
and then we do a 2 minute 10 - or + 10 sec. FS program incorporating all these elements.

But I would like to see a pre-prelim and pre-junior bronze test for everyone, not just the Canadian Adults. It's just too much to go from nothing to the prelim test and than jump from the prelim to the junior bronze test. All the other levels from senior bronze and on add things bit by bit.

Brigitte



The lower passing average for adults makes sense if you consider that the adult track was originally conceived to encourage adults to take up skating AS adults. It is unrealistic to expect the average adult to have the same flexibility and adeptness as the average child. The purpose of establishing the adult track wass to encourage adults to test while not expecting them to perform as children. There are many people who find the idea of NOT being judged at the same standard as our grandchildren to be a good thing and think its nice that USFSA has recognized this.

It seems to me that if you find the idea of a lower passing average insulting, then the solution is to simply test within the standard structure. No one says you can't do both.

[plinko]

I feel that changing the elements within the testing structure is a bad idea. The preliminary test should remain as is, although it could add a jump sequence to make it match more what is being seen in the freeskate programs at competition. What would be a sweet cash grab for Skate Canada would be to add an introductory test, that is similar to some of the Introductory or Canskate recreational competitive categories in WOS or COS. ie, Bunny Hop, Waltz, Toeloop, 1 foot spin (3 rev) 2 foot spin (3 rev), spiral or lunge in a one minute program. That's similar to Canskate badge 7, the only difference it that it is made into an official test in front of judges.
Since there is a move on to streamline categories as it is, I doubt this will ever happen although you could try. (more test fees, more revenue for SC might spark interest)

On one hand, the upswing in Adult skaters in Canada is good, on the other hand, there are only 1294 registered as adult skaters,(and I believe that includes Adult CanSkate) out of 31000 non-competitive skaters. I would much rather spend my energy trying to get an age group of 16 and over at every winter rec competition, than to try to get anything separately labelled "adult" because there isn't the membership to support it.

I'm doing well in dance (naturally soft knees) so don't see a need for lesser standards. If I can't do the choctaw in the Killian at speed or without crunching, then I really don't deserve to pass that dance. I don't want a pity pass. It's hard enough working my *** off to get a nice Swing dance with whisper quiet edges and pass it with Good, and then to hear some 8 year old brag that she just passed the Swing and only had 3 Needs Improvements. They're both passes but I really earned mine. That's what needs to be addressed.

Take this to a separate thread if you want to talk about Canada, but I have been following along on the USFSA developments with interest.

[singerskates]

Yup, you're not the only one that I've heard say that my pre-prelim FS test (or your Introductory FS test) would be a good idea for Skate Canada. It would match the USFSA's pre-prelim test. I do think it should be offered to all. After looking at the Junior Bronze more closely, I think everyone else is right about not needing a pre-junior bronze test.

The thing about an Adult track should not be forced on adults but it should be an option to those adults who wish to do it. For me, I'd just would like to see a pre-prelim test added on to the FS tests so that no skater no matter what age they are has to learn all the single jumps not including lutz and axel and all the basic spins all at once. It's very overwheming to learn all that in one time and sometimes or most of the time it takes years and years to pass the first freeskate test. To have a pre-prelim (introductory) FS test would get more adults and kids to stay in skating. Look at the US, they have pre-prelim FS tests and they have no shortage of kid skaters or adult skaters.

Brigitte

[jp1andOnly]

I feel that changing the elements within the testing structure
On one hand, the upswing in Adult skaters in Canada is good, on the other hand, there are only 1294 registered as adult skaters,(and I believe that includes Adult CanSkate) out of 31000 non-competitive skaters. I would much rather spend my energy trying to get an age group of 16 and over at every winter rec competition, than to try to get anything separately labelled "adult" because there isn't the membership to support it.

There are more adult skaters than that. According to the skate canada computer I am a competitive skater. This is because my ome club inputted me as that based on that I skate on the competitive skating sessions. Many of us are not put into adult categories.

Back to the US stuff...

I find it weird that wearing a dress would be such an issue that it was changed at an AGM. I'm no spring chicken and no skinny-mini bu I had a dress made that I thought was quite flattering. Yes, I might look like a hippo beside some kids but skating dresses can be very flattering if they are made properly.

[dbny]

I find it weird that wearing a dress would be such an issue that it was changed at an AGM. I'm no spring chicken and no skinny-mini bu I had a dress made that I thought was quite flattering. Yes, I might look like a hippo beside some kids but skating dresses can be very flattering if they are made properly.

Don't forget that adults who can barely afford to skate will not want to have to spend additional money on dresses they don't need except to satisfy a rule.

[jp1andOnly]

Don't forget that adults who can barely afford to skate will not want to have to spend additional money on dresses they don't need except to satisfy a rule.

But if you were to participate in another sport you would probably have to wear a uniform or some sort of clothing which you would have to buy. And everyone knows skating is very expensive. For example, if you were to do equestrian you would have to buy the proper clothes is you were planning on competing. What about if you were doing dance? You could wear jogging pants for class but if you did a show you would have to buy an outfit, etc.

[plinko]

There are more adult skaters than that. According to the skate canada computer I am a competitive skater. This is because my ome club inputted me as that based on that I skate on the competitive skating sessions. Many of us are not put into adult categories.


Actually, you could have a big problem if you're registered as Competitive, and enter a rec (Starskate) competition.

Adult is a subcategory. I really am Executive/Starskate/Adult, but there's only two fields, and they told me I had to be Executive/Adult. Now I see in the annual report just out (where I saw that 1200+ number) that Adult is a subcategory of recreational, and recreational means Canskate/CanPower. It's confusing and should be clarified. So, I don't think that Skate Canada has a good handle on the number of adults like us, adults who test/compete, or could if they wanted to [wear a dress, :twisted: ]. I'd like to know how many they have registered as Starskate/Adult. Heck, there's even a few competitive ice dancers right now that should be registered as COMPSK/ADULT. :P

[Betty]

There was a discussion at length on the Yahoo Groups ice dancers group concerning lowering the Adult dance passing marks...

Lots of pros and cons.

Since it could not be discussed on the above list, is anyone here going to the Christopher Dean workshop in Seattle on May 22nd an 23rd?

[jazzpants]

Don't forget that adults who can barely afford to skate will not want to have to spend additional money on dresses they don't need except to satisfy a rule.Yeap! This (partly) falls under me too!!! The skating dresses that I've seen that are affordable are either too young or too mature for me. The stuff that are "age appropriate" and looks good on me are usually too expensive (or looks too glitsy for my level of skating.) I don't have the money to go to a dressmaker (like I did in 2001) and I certainly don't know how to sew, much less have the time to learn to sew.

The skating dress I wore at my last competition was a month of getting the stones and then stoning it myself and at least two months to pick out the dress and wait for it to be shipped to me. (And I'm proud to say that I did a respectable job of stoning the dress myself given the deadline I had. I fooled enough people into thinking that one of the skating moms who usually does other people's dresses did mine. Half right -- she got me the stones.) ;)

[skaternum]

Are you able to share any of that discussion with us?

Well, as I recall, lots of people were complaining about the Novice move in the Gold moves and the Preliminary 3's in the Pre-bronze moves. There were several statements along the lines of "Look how much adult skating has already improved because of the mandatory Moves." And there was the usual griping about grandfathering from standard track and some griping about being forced to reskate some of the same Moves if you jump from Gold to Intermediate on the standard track. There were quite a few comments about how judges aren't cutting adults any slack at all -- still holding us to the standard track ideal when judging it in adult tests. And there was acknowledgement that we need to do a better job getting the adult vs. standard track comparison chart out to judges.

Personal aside 1: I don't see how you can attribute the "improvement" in basic skating to the mandatory Moves. Most of the competitive skaters I know haven't taken the Moves tests yet. But that's just a personal observation.

Personal aside 2: I, the skater, shouldn't have to be responsible for printing out a "how to judge adults" chart and giving it to my test chair or judges right before my test!

Sorry I can't be more specific, but I really don't remember who said what. I was hoping someone would post some minutes on the USFSA website, but nothing's been put up yet.

[flo]

I'm dissapointed that there's not a published report of the Governing Council actions on the USFSA site yet. Has anyone seen a report? Am I missing it?
Thanks

[Stormy]

Personal aside 2: I, the skater, shouldn't have to be responsible for printing out a "how to judge adults" chart and giving it to my test chair or judges right before my test!


ITA, ITA!!! Especially since, yes, I have personally seen how many judges don't judge by the Adult standard. The first time I took Silver Moves, I KNEW I was going to be judged on the standard track. Plus, I think many test chairs aren't even aware there's a standard difference. Despite repeated reminders, my test chair hasn't changed our club's test forms to put in Adult Moves...Adult Freestyle's in there, but not Moves.

[Skatewind]

I'm dissapointed that there's not a published report of the Governing Council actions on the USFSA site yet. Has anyone seen a report? Am I missing it? Thanks
I don't think you're overlooking anything. It seems like the coverage has been especially lousy this year. Reports on the web site have not covered the comprehensive issues, but mainly the light fare & motivational comments of skaters. They certainly haven't provided the planning information needed by clubs & skaters. I guess the minutes will be available at some point, but I don't know why there isn't better & more factual reporting in the meantime on some of the business items.

[dcden]

Personal aside 1: I don't see how you can attribute the "improvement" in basic skating to the mandatory Moves. Most of the competitive skaters I know haven't taken the Moves tests yet. But that's just a personal observation.

My theory is that while Moves do have an enhancing effect on one's skating, whether one is a child or an adult, what we're seeing in adult skating is not so much having moves tests improving the overall level of skating, but a shift towards the type of skater who you would typically see in AN and other large adult competitions. My memories of AN in 2000 were that the playing fields for each event were in general larger and more diverse in terms of skill level. Now what I'm seeing is that it's the higher-level skaters (i.e. those with greater ability within each event level) who are more likely to return year after year or to enter adult skating for the first time.

Now whether what I'm claiming to see has to do with moves is speculative. It could be that with the advent of adult moves tests, struggling skaters could feel the pressure of the added expectations and requirements made of their skating (even if they don't test moves) and feel pressured to stop skating. Or it could be that these skaters simply could not pass the moves tests they were working on and didn't feel comfortable competing at their current freestyle level. Or, with the economic situation and the fact that competition entry fees are increasing sharply, this has become a breaking point for skaters who were financially struggling to get sufficient ice/instruction time in the first place, thus skewing the skating fields towards those with more resources and thus more access to ice/instruction time. Or, the shift we're seeing could simply be a cyclical thing.

I'm not sure which of these factors, if any, has a significant impact on the improved level of skating. But to say "improved skating, must be those adult moves tests" needs to be thought through a little more. I'm not yet convinced.

[LWalsh]

The combined action report has just been posted on the US Skating site. www.usfsa.org

[jenlyon60]

An interesting tidbit...

"REFERRED to the Tests Committee for study a motion that the following grandfather clause would go into effect for Adult MIF.

Previous to 1 May 2004:

If an adult skater has passed the standard Intermediate MIF, the skater would be grandfathered at the adult gold MIF level.

If an adult skater has passed the standard juvenile MIF, the skater would be grandfathered at the adult silver MIF level.

If an adult skater has passed the standard pre-juvenile MIF, the skater would be grandfathered at the adult Bronze MIF level.

If an adult skater has passed the standard preliminary MIF, the skater would be grandfathered at the adult Pre-Bronze MIF level."

Note... this has been REFERRED to committee, it is not yet Approved for implementation.

[skaternum]

Welllllll. That IS interesting!

[charlie]

An interesting tidbit...

"REFERRED to the Tests Committee for study a motion that the following grandfather clause would go into effect for Adult MIF.

Previous to 1 May 2004:

If an adult skater has passed the standard Intermediate MIF, the skater would be grandfathered at the adult gold MIF level.


That would be awesome. It would prevent me from having to repeat all the moves tests if I test in the adult track. The current no grandfathering rule is absurd, and that's been the main thing that's been holding me back from taking any adult tests or competing as an adult. Any idea when the committee will decide whether this passes?

[daisies]

Any idea when the committee will decide whether this passes?

No committee decides whether it passes. This proposal was brought up at this year's GC from the floor as new business. It needs to be studied by the test committee and could be brought back next year for the board of directors to either approve or not approve and then for the Governing Council to vote on whatever the board of directors' action is. However, as brought up at this year's Adult Nationals, the Adult Skating Committee is looking into the possibility of restructuring the current Adult MIF test structure, so it could all be moot.

Regardless, if there is any change, it won't go into effect until at least next year.

[flo]

Just looked at the pair rules. I can compete as a silver, gold, or masters pair. Should be interesting.

[skaternum]

Just looked at the pair rules. I can compete as a silver, gold, or masters pair. Should be interesting.

May I suggest Gold? :) That way David & I will have someone else in Gold. (Most of our usual competitors will probably be Silver, I think.)

[Debbie S]

I'm glad to see some changes are being considered to the adult skating structure.

Question - and forgive me if this sounds silly - but does the proposal mean that adults would have to pass the moves test they are grandfathered into, or are they presumed to have passed that level? In other words, if a skater passes Pre-Juv MIF, does that mean their next test is Bronze MIF or Silver MIF?

[daisies]

does the proposal mean that adults would have to pass the moves test they are grandfathered into, or are they presumed to have passed that level? In other words, if a skater passes Pre-Juv MIF, does that mean their next test is Bronze MIF or Silver MIF?

It means they are presumed to have passed that level. In your example, the next test would be Silver MIF.

[flo]

Skaternum - gold would be great. Now I just need a man!

[dani]

Skaternum - gold would be great. Now I just need a man!

You are ahead of me - I need a really, tall man who happens to be really, really, really, really strong ;-)

Hugs!
Danielle

ps) Good luck Flo! ;-)