Back Progressives

[dbny]

I saw these demo'ed on a Natalia Dubova tape I have, but she does not go into enough verbal detail for me, and I don't know when I will be able to have a lesson. It was not at all clear from the video where the push on the BO edge is coming from. For example, skating CCW, how does the R foot push? Where should that free foot go as it leaves the ice? Hubby & I watched a segment of the tape over and over but could not agree on what we were seeing.

[icenut84]

If we're thinking of the same thing:

You skate onto a LBO edge with your right (free) foot in front. The right foot comes in, and crosses onto the ice (on RBI edge) behind the left foot (imagine you're doing forward runs, and the right free foot slides on the ice and crosses over the front of the left skating foot - it's basically the same principle). Your left foot lifts up and is extended forwards. Then you stroke onto the LBO edge again, pushing away slightly with the right foot and extending it forwards, and repeat. I hope that makes sense. Basically, the free foot always goes forwards.

[jenlyon60]

This is how I do a back progressive. Assume CCW direction.

Start RBO edge, right shoulder/arm leading direction of travel, left shoulder/arm "in front" over tracing.

Bring the left foot in, to the outside of the right foot (so that the inside of the left boot is touching or almost touching the right boot) and set down on the LBI. The left foot can even be slightly (half a bootlength or less) "behind" the right foot (so that the inside ball of the left boot is next to the inside arch of the right foot).

AS you set the left foot down on the LBI, push forwards with the RBO edge... I think of pushing from the heel, since my weight at this point is fairly far back on the blade. As you continue to push "forwards" with the right boot, lift the foot off the ice with the toe pointed. You should get some power generated from this action.

Next, set the right foot down next to the left foot, on RBO. Push forwards and out with the LBI (similar to a sculling action but not so much "around").

Knees should be bent throughout...although there can be a bit of rise and fall.

Back progressives are typically done in the same timing as forward progressives. For 4/4 timing, 1+1+2 (1 beat on RBO, 1 beat on LBI, 2 beats on RBO, assuming CCW direction). For 2+1 waltz timing, 2 beats on RBO, 1 beat on LBI, 3 beats on RBO.

Hope this helps.

Note: The foot placement may vary, depending on coach's background. I originally learned "feet next to each other" but my current coach (British) teaches that the "outside of circle" foot should be placed slightly behind (half boot length or a bit more) and next to the "inside of circle" foot.

[dooobedooo]

On her videos, Dubova talks a lot about what she calls the "double-sit push" - "first you bend your knees, then you sit again to push".

I think what she is referring to here is that you can gain acceleration and an extra pushing action by sitting into the kneebend of the skating leg.

So effectively, there are two "pushes" of different kinds -
(a) a push from the free foot (sometimes, this can be an elegant "figures"-type push that leaves a V or L shaped sideways tracing); plus
(b) a "sit into kneebend" propelling action by the skating leg. Once you get really strong in the up-and-down kneebend, you can gain speed and keep going just on one leg (like a one-foot slalom, or possibly even more complicated). I read somewhere that John Curry could go all the way round the rink on one leg - presumably by using this acceleration by kneebend up and down into the edge. You can also use this type of pushing action to great effect on foward or backward cross rolls (of course, you also still need this in combination with a push with your free foot - the free foot push is similar to the free foot in crossovers).

[dbny]

Thank you all. jenlyon60 gave me exactly the info I needed. On the video, hubby thought the R was crossing the tracing of the L as it left the ice. I didn't think that was possible, and was pretty sure the push had to be from the BO edge. The camera angles just didn't settle the question for us, and I didn't have the guts to go after the BO push on that inside foot without knowing first that it was the right thing to do. Thinking about pushing from the heel, it already seems do-able to me. Also, Dubova was talking about putting the BI edge (outside) foot down "progressively" ahead of the inside foot, but it was pretty clear in the video that the skaters were putting it down next to the other foot, so that is cleared up now too. My roller background screams "next to", so that's what I'll start with.

[dbny]

If we're thinking of the same thing:

You skate onto a LBO edge with your right (free) foot in front. The right foot comes in, and crosses onto the ice (on RBI edge) behind the left foot (imagine you're doing forward runs, and the right free foot slides on the ice and crosses over the front of the left skating foot - it's basically the same principle). Your left foot lifts up and is extended forwards. Then you stroke onto the LBO edge again, pushing away slightly with the right foot and extending it forwards, and repeat. I hope that makes sense. Basically, the free foot always goes forwards.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I'm totally confused by what you describe. If we're going CCW, then the LB should be an Inside edge, and the RB an Outside edge. So assuming CW, how does the R foot cross onto the ice behind the L foot and then cross over the front of the L skating foot, and how is it the free foot if it just took the ice? Maybe you meant something else?

[Mrs Redboots]

Note: The foot placement may vary, depending on coach's background. I originally learned "feet next to each other" but my current coach (British) teaches that the "outside of circle" foot should be placed slightly behind (half boot length or a bit more) and next to the "inside of circle" foot.Hmmm - this might explain the difficulties with the Fiesta Tango; when it was originally written up, the step after the Mohawk was a back run (progressive). Now you bring your feet side-by-side. Well, I have serious issues with bringing my feet behind each other, especially when going backwards (I can just do back cross-rolls now, but only 3-4 at a time unless I am in waltz hold with a good partner), so I learnt it side-by-side. Of course, Robert learnt it the "proper" way, and "can't do it" with his feet side-by-side... well, I'll leave the rest of that particular scene to your imaginations, but suffice it to say, the Fiesta is my least favourite competitive dance!

As for the Willow Waltz, the only other dance I'm able for (and that not really) that uses back runs, we have a hard time telling them from my back chassés. Oh well. Sigh....:frus:

[icenut84]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I'm totally confused by what you describe. If we're going CCW, then the LB should be an Inside edge, and the RB an Outside edge. So assuming CW, how does the R foot cross onto the ice behind the L foot and then cross over the front of the L skating foot, and how is it the free foot if it just took the ice? Maybe you meant something else?

Sorry - I think it was my explanation that wasn't very clear. I just realised that I described it in a CW direction, oops! lol. So that's why I talked about the LBO and RBI edges, rather than LBI and RBO.

For a CW description - the right foot doesn't cross behind AND in front of the left foot. I described a forward progressive in brackets, which mentioned crossing in front - I think that's where the confusion is. I just mentioned that because I assumed you know how to do forward progressives already, so I was saying backward progressives have the same principle - basically, in a forward progressive, you skate on the LFO edge, and when you put the RFI edge down, it doesn't cross straight over like in a crossover - you put it on the ice, then it slides across in front of the left foot. It's the same principle in a back progressive, because you skate on a LBO edge with the right foot extended forwards, then when you put the right foot down on a RBI edge, you don't just cross it over directly behind, it goes down onto the ice part-way crossed and slides in/behind the left foot. You then lift the left foot and extend it forwards, so at this point you're skating backwards on a RBI edge, with your left free foot in front. Then, you put down the LBO edge again, pushing away with the right foot and holding it forwards (off the ice), and repeat by sliding the RBI in behind again.

[dbny]

Sorry - I think it was my explanation that wasn't very clear. I just realised that I described it in a CW direction, oops! lol. So that's why I talked about the LBO and RBI edges, rather than LBI and RBO.

For a CW description - the right foot doesn't cross behind AND in front of the left foot. I described a forward progressive in brackets, which mentioned crossing in front - I think that's where the confusion is.

Yup, I missed those brackets.... :roll: .

My specific problem was with the push from the inside foot, though. In roller dance, there is no such push (what you described for ice..just lift the foot forward), but in Dubova's tape, it is clearly there, but hard to see exactly how it is done. That's what jenlyon60 has clarified.

[icedancer2]

Good thread!!

The push onto the 2nd step (the LBI) should be forward, but the end of the push should go to the outside of the circle a little past the outside foot (the left foot in the case of the CCW direction. As I believe jenlyon said, the push is off the outside edge on the back part of the blade, but the new free foot should not go straight forward, it should actually cross a little bit.

Man, this is hard to describe!! The push (to me) is very much like the push into the 2nd step of the Blues choctaw, or the ladies' Harris Tango Mohawk -- from the outside of the blade.

Another place where you would use this backwards push is on the cross-strokes in the Argentine Tango, or the Adult Silver MITF.

I watched that Dubova tape years ago and could never quite get that double knee-bend thingy -- and couldn't see where it was any different than what I was doing, really. I can see where you could get power from that, but the timing of the double knee-bend is difficult. I had a coach who trained with her who tried to teach it to me, but I'm not sure even he really knew it.

Good luck!! This is fun stuff to learn!

[dooobedooo]

Thanks, jenlyon60 and icedancer2, for clarifying how you do a back progressive push.

My coach is trying to get me to push on chassees, but apart from sitting into the skating edge more, I don't know which direction to push with the free foot on the chassee. Previously, I was just rising and lifting the free foot with toes pointing straight. Do you turn the toe in (figures type) or out (blues choctaw/back cross rolls type) for back chassees pushes? Do you push at all? How do you push on forward chassees (if at all)?

[dbny]

The push onto the 2nd step (the LBI) should be forward, but the end of the push should go to the outside of the circle a little past the outside foot (the left foot in the case of the CCW direction. As I believe jenlyon said, the push is off the outside edge on the back part of the blade, but the new free foot should not go straight forward, it should actually cross a little bit.


And that explains what we were seeing on the tape. Hubby was certain that the inside (of the arc) free foot was crossing the tracing of the outside skating foot at the end of the push. I can see why this is difficult!

[icedancer2]

You're welcome --

Chassees are a whole different ballgame and I'm not at all sure about the push... -- I always have just lifted the free foot on the chassee part straight up with the ankle flexed so that the blade is parallel to the ice (this is on a dance like the Canasta Tango (steps 1-3) or the Swing Dance or I guess there is one on the Willow Waltz-- ) anyway, I thought it was kind of simple without any obvious push.

But then recently I was talking with a friend who is a Gold Dancer and a judge -- we were talking about the Starlight Waltz and I was saying that I wondered how it would be judged now that it was a pre-Gold instead of an International, etc. She said something like, "Yeah, and I never really knew that a chassee wasn't just this little hoppy-like step until I had to really learn it in the Starlight." I just said, "Uh-huh" -- not really knowing what she meant.

I told my coach about it and she didn't know what she meant, either...

So, that's all I know so far. Any others? :lol: ;) ;)

[backspin]

Hmmmmm.....I always thought a chasse had no push on the lifting foot as well. Hmmmm.... Well, I'll be working on both the Starlight & the Paso, & my new Russian coach may want me to do them differently; I'll keep you posted. I'm finding out the Russian style has some very distinct differences. (so far, usually harder!)

[jenlyon60]

Yes, in the ideal world, as the "inside" foot comes off the ice, the knees should cross slightly and the now free foot should be in line with the now skating foot. Me, between fat thighs syndrome and what-not, I rarely get to that point.

That "from the heel" push is the same as the push onto the new skating foot in all of the closed mohawks I've learned so far (Foxtrot, Rocker, and Tango). And I probably should be working towards that on my Blues Choctaw. Which is a Choctaw at low power and a CHOP-taw at full power :)

It's also almost the same as one the pushes for back figures ... can't remember which edge... I heard it once called a "Shaffer" push (or Schaffer? don't know spelling)

Good thread!!

The push onto the 2nd step (the LBI) should be forward, but the end of the push should go to the outside of the circle a little past the outside foot (the left foot in the case of the CCW direction. As I believe jenlyon said, the push is off the outside edge on the back part of the blade, but the new free foot should not go straight forward, it should actually cross a little bit.

Man, this is hard to describe!! The push (to me) is very much like the push into the 2nd step of the Blues choctaw, or the ladies' Harris Tango Mohawk -- from the outside of the blade.

Another place where you would use this backwards push is on the cross-strokes in the Argentine Tango, or the Adult Silver MITF.

I watched that Dubova tape years ago and could never quite get that double knee-bend thingy -- and couldn't see where it was any different than what I was doing, really. I can see where you could get power from that, but the timing of the double knee-bend is difficult. I had a coach who trained with her who tried to teach it to me, but I'm not sure even he really knew it.

Good luck!! This is fun stuff to learn!

[dbny]

You're welcome --
Chassees are a whole different ballgame and I'm not at all sure about the push... -- I always have just lifted the free foot on the chassee part straight up with the ankle flexed so that the blade is parallel to the ice (this is on a dance like the Canasta Tango (steps 1-3) or the Swing Dance or I guess there is one on the Willow Waltz-- ) anyway, I thought it was kind of simple without any obvious push.


That is exactly how Dubova describes it. I had heard people talk about a push on the chasse before, so I paid particularly close attention to chasses on the tape, and there is absolutely no mention of a push. Just what you said, that the foot is lifted up with the ankle flexed so that the blade is parallel to the ice. The parallel position and the hip position were both stressed - no pushing with that foot, but the double knee bend push with the other foot.

I don't understand why chasses would be considered difficult. In roller dance they are learned at the lowest level.

[icedancer2]

I will be very interested if your Russian coach has anything to say differently about the chassee(s) in the Starlight. I can't imagine what my friend (the judge and ice dancer) meant when she said that they were different than she thought once she was working on the Starlight...

So tonight at our social dance session I did some back progressives (and some chassees) just to make sure I was doing it like we have been describing. What I found is that the pushing foot (the right foot in the CCW direction) pushes off as we have been describing (yes, kind of a "Shaefer push") -- and comes across in front of the left foot, which is now on a BI edge. It doesn't really cross over the tracing of that foot. But you have to keep the tension in the now free foot and what I do is turn the foot inward -- (pronate? supinate? I don't know the term) -- but it's as if I were going to look at the blade on the inside of the boot (is this making any sense?). Anyway, it helps to complete the push.

The Rocker foxtrot turn is a good example of this kind of push. glad you mentioned it!!

Thanks for the discussion!! :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

I don't find chassés difficult but, embarrassingly, it's only after all these years that I'm beginning to feel that I continue to move on the inside edge, doing ordinary outside chassés. And when I am doing inside chassés (which are :evil: ), I still don't feel that I'm moving on the outside edge..... (a good example of an inside chassé, in fact, the only dance I can think of that has one, is the Canadian cha-cha).

[icedancer2]

Okay, so I had a lesson this week and talked with my coach about the back progressives and the chassee's -- she loves working on this stuff and gave me some good pointers:

1) Back progressives -- pretty much as we have been discussing, with that Schaefer-push and all, but she thought I was turning my free foot (on the LBI) out and under a bit too much!! She prefers to keep the foot more parallel to the tracing, but still use the push (this takes even more control I find!). Then she said that my "Schaefer-push" was better than the push onto the RBO and really made me work that into more of a "power-push" -- once I got going on that and kept the "Schaefer-push" to the LBI more parallel to the ice, I felt completely comfortable and the whole thing flowed much better and faster and I felt like I could just keep doing those progressives in a circle all day! Felt great!

And then we got to the:

2) Back Chassees. She agreed that there is no push when you lift your foot parallel to the ice on the actual chassee.

But she was again critical of the push onto the outside edge in the first step of the chassee sequence. She pointed out that my edges were really flats and that we had to bring the lobes around a LOT more and really make a PUSH onto the outside edge of the new lobe each time. This made the STarlight chassee sections a lot more interesting and a lot more lobey than they had been. It's really the transition that makes this part flow.

Anyway, she also thought it was interesting that I was discussing these things with people on the internet and she really thinks this is a great way for us to learn new things and perhaps go back to some basic things, so I want to thank everyone for this discussion!!

I love learning the WHYS of the skating. It makes it all that much more fun! :bow:

[Mrs Redboots]

And then we got to the:

2) Back Chassees. She agreed that there is no push when you lift your foot parallel to the ice on the actual chassee.

But she was again critical of the push onto the outside edge in the first step of the chassee sequence. She pointed out that my edges were really flats and that we had to bring the lobes around a LOT more and really make a PUSH onto the outside edge of the new lobe each time. This made the STarlight chassee sections a lot more interesting and a lot more lobey than they had been. It's really the transition that makes this part flow.Yes, my coach insists that, when we are doing chassés, the actual chassé is at the top of the lobe. I find if I think "edge, chassé, edge" it works.... I remember that I am pushing towards the centre on the first edge of a LBO/RBI chassé/LBO, for instance. But I still find extending on the first LBO almost impossible, and get yelled at for not nearly every session!

[dbny]

On her videos, Dubova talks a lot about what she calls the "double-sit push" - "first you bend your knees, then you sit again to push".

I think what she is referring to here is that you can gain acceleration and an extra pushing action by sitting into the kneebend of the skating leg.

So effectively, there are two "pushes" of different kinds -
(a) a push from the free foot (sometimes, this can be an elegant "figures"-type push that leaves a V or L shaped sideways tracing); plus
(b) a "sit into kneebend" propelling action by the skating leg. Once you get really strong in the up-and-down kneebend, you can gain speed and keep going just on one leg (like a one-foot slalom, or possibly even more complicated). I read somewhere that John Curry could go all the way round the rink on one leg - presumably by using this acceleration by kneebend up and down into the edge. You can also use this type of pushing action to great effect on foward or backward cross rolls (of course, you also still need this in combination with a push with your free foot - the free foot push is similar to the free foot in crossovers).

With my recently aquired info from the PSA conference, I can clarify this. The double sit push or double knee bend push, is actually very simple, and most of us do it without realizing it. Let's start with a push from the R onto the L. In order for the L to take the ice with the knee bent already, the R has to bend first. That is the first bend for the L and the second for the R. Now, you are gliding on your L, and rise up a bit. In order for the R to take the ice smoothly again, you must bend the L again, the second bend for the L. So the double sit push, or double knee bend, is just bending the knee to take ice, rising up to glide, and bending again for the transfer of weight to the other foot on the next stroke.

Going around the rink on one foot is done with power pulls, which, according to Dubova, is all in the knees. After watching her tape, I am aspiring to power pulls with no upper body motion, and the free leg held as an outrigger, also with almost no motion. You're all invited to come and see me do them that way in about 30 years :lol:

[dooobedooo]

I also discussed some of these issues with my coach recently. My coach confirmed:

- there is no push on the actual inside edge/chassee; coach just wanted me to push more on the initial outside edge.

- the second push on back progressive is as described by icedancer2. (Thinks: how can I have been skating so long, and nobody ever noticed I wasn't doing it correctly ....!)

- I still have to regularly work on getting a good change of weight ready in time for the next push (mainly a problem on forward chassees), and this can help your edges and speed a lot too.

I also had a bit of a grouse about how judging is now rewarding presentation at the expense of correct and clean footwork (creating medallists with scratchy 3-turns, mohawks that look like choctaws, etc), and coach agreed ....

[icedancer2]

I also discussed some of these issues with my coach recently. My coach confirmed:


- the second push on back progressive is as described by icedancer2. (Thinks: how can I have been skating so long, and nobody ever noticed I wasn't doing it correctly ....!)

Thanks. I seem to be getting feedback that this is correct from many angles -- nice to see your coach agrees with this interpretation of back progressives. I have also been skating a long time and have not had a whole lot of instruction on this point, either -- I think that other things must be more important, but actually I think stuff like this is really cool, especially when it helps you get speed, looks "neat", etc. -- the whole Back to Basics thingy.

I also had a bit of a grouse about how judging is now rewarding presentation at the expense of correct and clean footwork (creating medallists with scratchy 3-turns, mohawks that look like choctaws, etc), and coach agreed ....

Oh, yes -- this drives me wild -- especially in the free dance!!!!