Spinning Direction

[Dragonheart]

OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of the strong landing leg.

[backspin]

If someone hasn't ever jumped or spun before, you can usually can tell by asking them which way is their "more comfortable" way when doing forward crossovers.

One of my friends simply has the kid stand still in front of him, & then tells them to turn around three times. Whichever way the kid turns without thinking about it (his theory is), is their natural spin/jump direction. Problem is, I've tried this a few times & it doesn't always seem to work.

[AshBugg44]

Most kids automatically spin counter-clockwise, I've noticed.

[dbny]

Most kids automatically spin counter-clockwise, I've noticed.

That's because that is the most comfortable direction for righties and most people are right handed.

When first teaching spins, I ask a child to try in both directions and then choose which they like better.

[twinkle]

Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I automatically went clockwise.

My coach teaches his pupils to jump and spin both ways when they are learning the basics(upright spin, waltz jump).

[Spreadeagle]

I have heard that it's whatever direction you are most comfortable doing a back outside 3 on. If your right foot is more comfortable, you spin counter-clockwise, if left is more comfortable, you spin clockwise.

[dbny]

Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I automatically went clockwise.


Right. I meant to say it is usually the most comfortable direction for righties.

[Dragonheart]

The problem with the let the child turn and decide method(which I did for many years)is as backspin said,it does not allways work because they often go a different direction each time.I usually ask a child to kick my glove and which ever foot they kick with is the decisive factor as to their strong leg.If right footed counter clockwise.There was a top level coach that changed a world competitors direction after they were allready a champion.Fassi was the coach I believe and I can't remember the skater.

[Michigansk8er]

My daughter is one of the odd ones. She is right-handed, but skates as a leftie. When she was a gymnast, even her compulsory routines were totally reversed from everyone else on the team. I wish I could remember how the coach determined which way she learn to jump/spin, but I don't. Interesting topic. I think I'll ask my coach what his take is on this.

[Lmarletto]

My daughter's coach watched her as she was learning waltz jumps and two foot spins and then decided CW was her stronger direction. She is right-handed, but left-eyed. I've noticed though that her self-taught one foot spins and "twizzles", which her coach rarely sees, go either way.

Is spin direction like handedness, where some people strongly prefer one or the other and other people have varying degrees of ambidextrousness? Does anyone know if elite skaters who jump and spin in both directions started doing that at a young age or picked it up later? I've noticed that coaches at our rink identify a skater's direction very early and focus almost exclusively on the one direction. Don't ice dancers have to spin in both directions?

[2sk8]

Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they exist. As a "lefty", I do spin /jump CW, but really don't remember if that's how I learned it as a kid (many years break in between). If someone asked me about "more comfortable" direction for crossovers, I'd pick CCW! -- Perhaps that is just the result of years of a lefty adjusting to a righty world! If asked to kick a glove, it'd be my right foot. If asked to do a back outside 3 - more comfortable on my left (but kids just starting out can't do back outside 3s, right?) Many things, like twizzles, I'm more "equal" on than most, can also do basic spin & waltz jump either way. Perhaps just adjusting over the years, perhaps a sign of less a "strong" handedness - is there a science to this decision or more of an art?

[AshBugg44]

I have heard that it's whatever direction you are most comfortable doing a back outside 3 on. If your right foot is more comfortable, you spin counter-clockwise, if left is more comfortable, you spin clockwise.

The only problem with that theory, although it makes a lot of sense, is that (at least in the ISI curriculum), you have not learned back 3's when you enter into Freestyle 1, which is when you learn a waltz jump and two foot spin. Even more so, we casually teach two foot spins to lower levels, and they can't even do two foot turns, let alone a back 3. ;)

[techskater]

The skater referenced that Fassi changed was John Currie. He spun CW but jumped CCW. Fassi retaught him to spin the CCW direction to improve his jumps (his 3's were inconsistent).

My coach was another one who jumped CCW but spun CW. She spent some time with Mr. Lussi and became known as the "puker" because she was required to do 100 spins every hour in the CCW direction (no jumps, no figures, no nothing else)! She'd get off the ice at the end of the session and puke!

[Dragonheart]

Jumping and spinning should be in the same direction,not only because loops and backspins are the basics for all multi rotational jumps but in my opinion programs flow better when they are both done the same direction.Allthough the skater that can throw in the occasional jump or spin in the opposite direction,if done well,adds to the technical difficulty.ie Michelle's camel.

[Schmeck]

If there is a chance that your skater will be interested in doing synchro, go CCW now, if possible! My older daughter is a right-handed CW skater, and now must learn to spin and do all single jumps up through lutz CCW. Even basic moves like a split jump must be re-learned to make it onto the team.

Funny thing is, when she did gymnastics, she did her floor routine (compulsory) right-handed. Actually, she's pretty ambidextrous (sp?) and doesn't have a strong side for much of anything. :roll:

During Basic Skills class, I remember the instructors lining the skaters up facing away from them. They'd then tap the student on the shoulder for them to turn around - whichever way they turned was the way they jumped/spun. Spun? Is that right? I need more tea this morning, LOL!

[Mrs Redboots]

Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they exist.Oddly, most of the people I know who are clockwise skaters are right-handed. I'm basically a clockwise skater myself - my turns and everything are far stronger that way - but because I do so little free skating, I do jump and (now) spin anti-clockwise. But I think that, if I'd started out as a free skater, I'd be a clockwise one. Certainly, when I began to spin, I spun clockwise - I now spin equally badly in both directions, but marginally better anti-clockwise.

[Live-a-little]

If there is a chance that your skater will be interested in doing synchro, go CCW now, if possible! My older daughter is a right-handed CW skater, and now must learn to spin and do all single jumps up through lutz CCW. Even basic moves like a split jump must be re-learned to make it onto the team.




My daughter is the same. Right handed - jumps left. At 13, joined the synchro team and there are jumps in their routine. Finds it extremely difficult to do even a single flip in the opposite direction.

I seem to remember when she started out, her coach asked her to skate up the ice and turn. And whichever way she turned, the decision was made.

Over the years she has found that being a left jumper is a real nuisance, especially at seminars where groups of skaters are asked to perform an element together. She has to inform the person-in-charge that she is a leftie, so that she can do the elements in a specific area - for safety reasons. She has had a couple of nasty collisions on the ice, in the early days. Nothing serious.... but at the time, it was scary.

As well, if a skater ever wants to be a pairs skater, it is really difficult to find a suitable partner.

[Bailey]

I used to coach in university. Jumping and spinning should definately both be the same direction. I would usually start with the skate to the boards, turn around and the way they would turn in the most natural. But, sometimes the kids can tell you - this way feels better - and often you can see which direction they have more control. I only remember one girl who was right handed but would spin clockwise (unnatural for me).

[johnfisher]

When I started skating I taught myself to jump CCW and spin CW. My first coach let me get away with this, but my second immediately made me change my spin direction which wasn't easy at first. Now, quite a few years later I can spin both ways, but I am much stronger CCW and CW now feels a bit goofy. CW camels are just doable, but my CW sit is terrible. Not that I've spent much time trying to learn, but I have never been able to do much of a CW backspin either.

I think it is not unusual for a skater to find spinning one way and jumping the other easier at first, but in the long run I think all skaters will find they will be strongest spinning the same way as they jump.

John

[Isk8NYC]

I always start teaching rotation with basic two-foot spins and I think that you should spin/jump in the same "direction."

I can do the basics in both directions, so I have students try it both ways and decide which one is more comfortable for them. I watch them carefully to see which side is stronger or more comfortable. Some kids can tell you, others aren't aware enough.

Some kids use left-handedness as an obstacle to doing anything on the right foot. One little girl wouldn't do right-foot glides for me, claiming that she was "really left-handed." I joked with her, saying, "So, you walk like this?" and demonstrated an Igor/mad assistant foot drag. She laughed and agreed to try.

I like the glove-kick suggestion -- I'll have to try that with a few established skaters to see which foot they use in relation to their spins.

[Gold*starblade]

I'm right handed but left footed. But actually I think I'm slightly ambidextrious(sp)? The day that I took my first private lesson at the age of 8 is when my coach determined that I should spin and jump clockwise. I have no idea how she made this determination but I imagine she felt that my other skills, I was in FS1 at the time, were stronger that way and although I had started learning jumps and spins already we started working on the other direction. Additionally as I got older I found that I could bat both directions in softball and do many other things better as a leftie but I have always been stronger with my left hand. So I don't know if there is any one way to make this determination, perhaps it's just whatever the child does naturally.

[NickiT]

Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I automatically went clockwise.

My coach teaches his pupils to jump and spin both ways when they are learning the basics(upright spin, waltz jump).

I totally agree! I'm left-handed yet I spin and jump counter-clockwise. I don't recall having a favoured side back when I was learning to spin and jump so it seemed natural to do so the way my coach showed me.

I may add though that Twinkle's coach takes me for off-ice training and he makes us do jumps both ways off-ice!

Nicki

[twinkle]

He makes me do them both ways on ice sometimes. Off ice I can do all the singles the other way and attempt an axel.

[NickiT]

He makes me do them both ways on ice sometimes. Off ice I can do all the singles the other way and attempt an axel.

Can't get full rotation the normal way round for me on the axel off-ice so haven't been asked to attempt it in reverse yet! The one that confuses me the most is the lutz and the more I think about it the harder it is!

Nicki

[Raine]

When I began my pursuit of skating, it was always on public sessions and halfway through the session, when the direction of traffic would change to CW, I immediately felt at home. I'm also right-handed but a leftie on the ice.

Has anyone ever noticed the relatively high percentage of adult skaters who are lefties? I think that adults are less likely to be influenced by coaches who strongly prefer that their students go CCW no matter what.

Happy Skating!
Raine

[Mrs Redboots]

It's actually quite useful being able to spin in both directions, as it's another element! Think of Robin Cousins, who not only could, but did spin in both directions as a matter of course in his routines. And dancers have to, after all!

[skatepixie]

My coach didnt really "decide". I learned at first CW when I taught myself the 2 foot spin, but once I got into group it was me and another girl and she was CW. For some reason I just followed my coach and did CCW, and I am CCW to this day. I prefer it. Peoples discriptions dont have to be decoded....and I actually am stronger that way...go figure.

[FSWer]

That is sooooooo COOL!!!!!! What Team is your Daughter on live a little?

[flippet]

During Basic Skills class, I remember the instructors lining the skaters up facing away from them. They'd then tap the student on the shoulder for them to turn around - whichever way they turned was the way they jumped/spun.
That freaks me out just a little--because, thinking about it, If I were tapped on my left shoulder, I'd turn to the left--if I were tapped on my right shoulder, I'd turn to the right. I wouldn't trust any method where 'contamination' (i.e. touching the student) could alter the results.

[IceAngel2007]

does anyone here besides me jump and spin in two different directions?? or am i the only one:( :oops:

[CanAmSk8ter]

Someone asked whether ice dancers have to spin in both directions. I don't know about the dance spins that are required now, but you do have to be able to do twizzles in both directions. I can (usually) do triple twizzles from a RFI edge, but I can only do doubles from an LFI edge. They're getting better, but it's hard! I do them every time I get on the ice.

When I teach spins to beginners, I usually go by which forward outside 3-turn is stronger. If I'm not convinced that that's the skater's "good direction", I have them try it the other way and ask them which way feels more natural. I have known skaters who spin one way and jump the other way- there was a very good senior lady at my old rink who did that, actually, and I had a little girl in FS 1 group lessons who did it about a year ago- but I personally would try to nip that habit in the bud. It's probably not a big deal, but like others have said, in pairs or synchro it could be a problem.

[Schmeck]

flippet - you're right - I don't think they were tapped, maybe just had their names called? It's been a few years since I was on the ice with skaters at that level, so my mind's a bit foggy about it. Maybe they were just tapped on the head?

The coach who did this is one of the best trained technicians we have - so I'm sure she was aware of 'contamination'!

[Live-a-little]

What Team is your Daughter on live a little?


My daughter is on a provincial Junior synchronized team (Canada).

[FSWer]

COOL!!!!!! Is it ok to ask what team? Or would you want to keep that private?

[Jim]

OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of the strong landing leg.

Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

3: Ask the skater to stand with there feet together and jump up and turn around in the air as many times as they can. The direction they turn is a good indication of there natural direction of rotation.

4: Ask the skater to jump up and land on one foot. Notice which foot they land on. The foot they land on is a good indication of the stronger or landing leg. If they land on the right foot its a good indication there natural rotation direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

5: Try these little exercises several times over a week so without asking the skater to turn either direction. You should be able to get a pretty good idea of the skaters natural direction of rotation.

[Jim]

OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of the strong landing leg.
Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

3: Ask the skater to stand with there feet together and jump up and turn around in the air as many times as they can. The direction they turn is a good indication of there natural direction of rotation.

4: Ask the skater to jump up and land on one foot. Notice which foot they land on. The foot they land on is a good indication of the stronger or landing leg. If they land on the right foot its a good indication there natural rotation direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

5: Try these little exercises several times over a week so without asking the skater to turn either direction. You should be able to get a pretty good idea of the skaters natural direction of rotation.

[kayskate]

Personally, I am very ambidextrous off ice. On ice, I jump/spin CW. I can do basics in both directions. I teach students in group lessons to turn/spin both ways. I teach basic jumps both ways (bunny, waltz). As I watch a kid skate, I can tell which leg they favor by how they stroke, glide, do spirals etc. I have not taught higher levels so I have not worked w/ kids deciding which direction to choose.

Kay

[twokidsskatemom]

does anyone here besides me jump and spin in two different directions?? or am i the only one:( :oops:
no, you arent the youngest Im sure. :)
My dd does her jumps and spins ccw right now. just seems to be how she is.

[Isk8NYC]

I usually ask a child to kick my glove and which ever foot they kick with is the decisive factor as to their strong leg.
I've been using this trick for a couple of weeks and I absolutely LOVE it! It takes away the "but I like it better that way" argument, because it's obvious which is the stronger leg/direction.

Thanks for the great suggestion!

[Chico]

I asked my coach this question once. He told me to skate in front of him. He then called my name. Of course I turned around to see what he wanted. The direction you turn is your stronger side and how he determines which way you spin and jump.

Chico

[Mrs Redboots]

I wonder, too, whether directional preference is determined by how well you know your right from your left. I simply don't know, automatically, and always have to stop and think about it (so irritating when driving - especially on the continent, or in the US, where the traffic is on the other side of the road from home, so I'll usually say "Turn right here" when I mean "Turn left" simply because it's the 3rd exit from the roundabout, which, at home, is right!).

And I don't know which way I jump and spin - like many others, I taught myself to jump CCW and spin CW. But then, as various readers of these forums will attest, on Thursday I got disoriented in my programme, had to rescue it "on the fly" and wound up skating past the judges in the wrong direction from that which I'd practiced. And when it came to the cherry flip (toe loop), I simply couldn't remember which way to jump, or which foot to pick in with....... disaster.....

I'm pretty sure that, had I not learnt to skate at the very end of the "Adults can't jump and spin, they do dance" era, I'd have been a clockwise skater. As it is, I'm anti-clockwise, but not very comfortable! I still spin (badly) in either direction.

[vesperholly]

When I was in learn to skate and for my first year of private lessons, I jumped and spun CW. When I was 14, I switched coaches and my new coach said I spin better CCW, so switched all my jumps and spins. Now, 10 years later, I can still spin very well CW and until very recently was jumping CCW and doing some spins CCW (camel, sit, sit-change) and some CW (flying camel, layback).

I decided in March that I wanted to do everything CCW since I wasn't going anywhere with everything switched all around, and started working on all CCW spins only. I can now do a decent camel-back camel (something I've never thought I could do since I couldn't do a CW camel) and flying camel CCW. Layback has been incredibly difficult to switch. It's still solid CW but really iffy CCW - I travel the second I start to lean back which is death for a layback.

I'm not a great jumper beyond singles, but I think working on CCW spins will help that. Especially the CCW backspin, which used to be terrible but has gotten markedly better. I can still do waltz, toe loop, and sal CW but they're not good. Loops and flips were 1/2 turn cheated and totally awkward the last time I attempted them, and no lutz.

As far as moves, I waver. I usually like LO turns and RI turns best - but both for counters (CW) and three turns (CCW). I think it's more a leg strength thing than a rotational thing. On novice moves, I can do the CW rocker-choctaws better (RBI rocker to RFI-LBO choctaw) but the LBI-RFI threes (CCW) better.

What can I say, I'm weird! :twisted:

[NCSkater02]

Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction is to the left or counter clockwise.



The only drawbacks to these two methods are other activities--such as band and military. I was active duty for a while (go Air Force) and if you asked me to walk away and I turned around, it would be clockwise, because that is an about-face and feels natural. I don't know what I did pre-AF, but I am right handed and turn clockwise. However, I spin and jump CCW. And I kick and land right footed.

When I play cards, I deal left handed. And I count (for surgical procedures) left handed. I'm just confused, I guess.

[mikawendy]

Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they exist....

Many things, like twizzles, I'm more "equal" on than most, can also do basic spin & waltz jump either way. Perhaps just adjusting over the years, perhaps a sign of less a "strong" handedness - is there a science to this decision or more of an art?

I made a list of the CW skaters at my rink that I could think of--there are about 12 of us off the top of my head, and about 6-8 of them I see regularly at FS sessions. Most of them are CW skaters but write right handed. I'm CW and write lefty (but use righty scissors b/c lefty ones are ATROCIOUS in my experience, very hard to use). I also mouse with my right hand (but that's so I can write and mouse without my paper getting in the way of my mouse pad, which is useful at work).

My basic skills instructor at the time had us try both directions, and didn't make us commit to a side when we learned 2-foot spins. We did have to choose when we started learning waltz jumps, so that we would spin and jump to the same direction.

As far as the science to it, it would be interesting to see if anyone in the Figure Skating Science program (or whatever it is called) at University of Delaware has ever studied rotational direction....