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Raine

04-16-2004, 09:07 AM

Hey, everyone.

I got back from Lake Placid yesterday. Since I wasn't there for very long, and I'm still new to (and on the fringe of) the adult skating world, I won't be able to answer many of your questions, but I thought I'd share some of my impressions. So this might be of limited interest, but here goes...

Lake Placid looked beautiful, particularly yesterday which was a crystalline day. I had fun taking pictures around frozen Mirror Lake in the wee hours. And it was great to look out the hotel windows and see skaters wheeling their skate bags up Main Street towards the arena. The only minus about LP in April is that many of the shops and restaurants are closed, as it's presumably off-season. I was talking to one of the shopowners, who told me that he was closing up next week. Thank goodness his bakery was open because he served up the best chocolate raspberry torte. Good training grub. ;)

My initial impression from watching the practices is that adult skating has made a huge leap in quality over the past year. Could it be that more "kid skaters" have entered into the mix, or is it because adults are testing MITF? Contrary to what I often read about adult skaters, speed, good edge quality, athleticism, and tricks were prevalent. Lots of impressive spreadeagles (with straight backs, too).

For me, the greatest thing about Adult Nationals is being able to go into one of the arenas at any time of day, sit anywhere you like and enjoy the wonderful skating. The cafeteria had decent coffee and muffins, but there didn't seem to be a problem with bringing in contraband food. ;) ANs has got to be the most fun competition that US Figure Skating runs.

The event seemed to be run very efficiently. My only complaint centered around practice ice. A number of us had to wait two hours in line to purchase ice time, and the practice ice office was open limited hours. I was hoping to swap my unused practice ice with another skater who really needed it, but the office was closed mid-day and I was unable to do so. I appreciate the fact that it takes dedicated volunteers to help run an event like this, but it was frustrating.

As I mentioned in another thread, I didn't qualify for the final round. I was in a three-way tie for 6th place in a tough group and ended up 7th. Shortly after reading the results, I went to Ben & Jerry's--twice. (More good training grub!) I would love to have skated on the 1980 rink, but with such strong competition, I knew I was borderline. When I think of all the mornings I got up at 4:30 or 5:00 am to train, it's a bummer. I need to assess whether or not to continue. I'm not innately a good athlete, unlike most of the adults I saw this week, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to improve enough to be in the thick of things. I'm considering doing an interpretive next time so that I can get involved in an event where results are less important than the entertainment value you offer to the audience.

Cheers,
Raine

sk8pics

04-16-2004, 10:00 AM

Raine,
Congrats on making it to nationals and having a good time skating! I'm sorry to read that you're a little frustrated. Only you can decide whether to continue to skate, but I would urge you not to make any hasty decisions to stop. Or maybe you meant you don't know whether to continue trying to compete at nationals? I guess the question is whether you enjoyed yourself and whether your skating is improving. I know that I have a long long way to go to ever make it to adult natioals, but I just keep plugging away. For me, it's not about winning but about the whole process. I know it sounds trite, but it's true for me.

Hang in there! I enjoyed meeting you at Chelsea Piers and hope to see you again at a competition in the future. BTW, I'm signed up for the May Day competition at Laurel in May.

Pat

Mrs Redboots

04-16-2004, 12:17 PM

Raine, I think you were fantastic! No, I didn't see you skate (wish I had!), but you were there, and you were competing, and that's what matters. You didn't say whether you were pleased with how you skated - as opposed to the results, which must have been horribly frustrating for you - but if you were, then don't give up. Do Interpretive, by all means - it's enormous fun - but don't give up on the free skating, either. Don't forget that there are some skaters out there who go back year after year with very little hope of finishing other than last, or all but last, in their group - but they still have enormous fun trying, and seeing how they, and everybody else, has improved in the last year!

Come and skate at the Mountain Cup, too - or at the Dune of Flanders Cup at Christmas - to see how you measure up to international standards!

Raine

04-16-2004, 01:53 PM

Thanks for your great posts!

If I haven't improved very much or competed well, I blame myself in part for not focusing on the goals I had set last April.

But I do question how much I can improve. I find it amazing that so many adult skaters are doing lutzes, axels, doubles, flying camels, etc. after only a few years of skating. They're superannuated versions of Johnny Weir! ;)

I've been skating much longer, although mostly recreationally in public sessions with occasional group lessons. I can barely do a lutz, which I finally learned at age 48 and haven't yet mastered. I can't do a backspin at all, and for the same reason, I can't do combinations that end with a loop jump. My last resort is to see an orthopedic specialist and/or get new equipment.

Mrs. Redboots, I'd love love love to do an adult competition overseas. Especially if they ever have one in the UK (my favourite part of the world), I'm there!

Cheers,
Raine

Mel On Ice

04-16-2004, 02:33 PM

oh Raine, I feel for you, I really do. Flips, loops and lutzes have been the bane of my existence since 2000.

Of all things, don't let your placements at ONE competition dictate to you whether to quit the sport you love. Do it for love of sport, not medals. I think we've all been there, I know it's driving me crazy that a friend of mine is an adult ice prodigy, but I can't try to compare myself to her since I'm not a natural athlete and she is.

vesperholly

04-16-2004, 03:01 PM

Perserverence is everything! If it will make you feel better, I will excise a demon. I landed my first axel in November of 1997 after I had been in private lessons for 4 years and learn to skate before that for 5. :oops: I still do not have it consistent, almost 7 years later. The last time it was consistent was summer 2000, and it was on-and-off before that. Since then, it's either cheated or two-footed, and nowhere near putting in my program..... sigh.

ETA: Ugh, that did not sound like a pep-talk at all... what I really mean is, I haven't had a consistent axel in years. I have continued to enjoy skating and learn lots of things and have great experiences regardless. Even if I never get my axel back (!!!) I will still like skating and want to do it. And my axel is at least under my control - judging is not under your control so why let one competition of it dictate whether you keep skating?

I know it's disappointing, but hey, you were at least really close! You could've had last-place ordinals across the board! :) Is this your first ANs? How long have you been skating for?

One of the big lessons in skating is that sometimes you work hard, skate great and get screwed, and sometimes you slack off, skate poorly and place well. All you can do is work hard and hope for the best. Good for you for training so hard and competing well. Keep at it!!

Terri C

04-16-2004, 03:13 PM

But I do question how much I can improve. I find it amazing that so many adult skaters are doing lutzes, axels, doubles, flying camels, etc. after only a few years of skating. They're superannuated versions of Johnny Weir! ;)

Raine, I know EXACTLY where you're coming from! I, too, know skaters that have only been in the sport for a few years, but can do jumps up to lutz, in addition to camels, camel sits, etc. I can barely land a loop! Makes me wonder where or how they get the time to practice when they have families and jobs to boot!
It doesn't matter to me though- - I'm planning to train all out to get my Bronze tests passed in order to go to KC next year (this will be try#5 for the Bronze freestyle :frus: )
Anybody going to Hackensack in June- I'm thinking about it, but will be a 7 hour drive for me!

Michigansk8er

04-16-2004, 03:41 PM

There are also adult skaters who don't admit they skated as kids...........so don't take the claims of lutz in 2 years too seriously, or compare yourself. Sure, there are some talented adults out there that have natural jumping and spinning ability...........but the majority of us have to work really hard, and often for years to get one little element consistent. I'm still waiting to call something consistent. LOL! OK, I do have a pretty consistent backspin, but on I'm VERY loop challenged. Play up what you are good at, and keep working on the challenging stuff. Heck, it's the challenge that makes this sport so much fun (and so frustrating).

Good job going to AN!!!!!!!

Oh..........I remember those practice ice lines. I waited 3 hours when I was there, and had to do it twice. I also remember a good German bakery. He was closing for the season the day I went in...........so everything left was 1/2 off. Oh my, the treats I walked out the door with that day. :D

Zoomana

04-16-2004, 04:20 PM

I don't post much, but I can feel your pain! I just failed my Preliminary Moves last month after working on them for over two years and I wanted to throw my skates in the trash the week after (failed due to nerves mostly). Back to practice, though, and feeling better, hopefully you will soon too.

As to skill level, I started in 1997 in group lessons, never skated before as a kid. I didn't get my flip or lutz until about 2001, and that was two months after my first private lesson. I just got my backspin (on the proper outside edge and correct) in late 2003! I thought I would never get the thing! My coach is really fabulous and has never given up, even when I've done something wrong 8,000 times the exact same way.

I told my coach I would "never" land a lutz, my dyslexic mind just didn't "get" it and I was terrified of the thing. Now it's my second favorite jump (flip is my easiest/favorite). I felt the same way about flying camels and now try them (albeit with bent leg). Axel if I ever land it will be a miracle, but I don't care one way or the other.

My loop still stinks and I can land it, but it's weird. Loops at the end of jumps are torture. Part of my problem with loops and backspins concerned a bum left leg (healing stress fracture in my left thigh) and bad blades from bad sharpenings. I see you are from Boston area--I swear by Scott Cooke in Wilmington, he put me in exactly the right boot/blade combination.

I used to skate 8-10 hours a week and now only skate about 3-4. I am 36, have a full-time job, a big house and no kids. I did nothing but watch Brady Bunch as a kid and play in the yard, never took dance, have no inborn athletic talents and still don't do anything but skate (ice and roller/quads). We're all different and I really respect anyone who takes a chance and competes. I never have competed, the four tests I have taken (three passed, one failed) were scary enough!

My goal in when starting skating was just to learn backwards crossovers, LOL. You never know what you will accomplish, it may be just around the corner.

Congrats on getting out there!

skateflo

04-16-2004, 05:00 PM

Raine, I applaud you for going to AN!!! Many adults have become 'placement' oriented - that's human. Some of us have a hard time recognizing the good things we did and focus on our mess-ups - that's human too. I'm sure you put in a lot of emotional energy in gearing up for AN, so you are experiencing a post-event letdown - that's human too.

Many of us have had second thoughts about our skating and the years we put in and our 'unnatural' athletic ability. Take a break! Even the kids cool off for a week after an important competition.

If Interpretive appeals to you because you would like to do something more artistic than so element oriented, then go for it! You may find that aspect of skating really calls to you and you blossum forth.

And yes, I agree, I think there are a lot of returning skaters that draw on their childhood memories, like riding a bike, more than they realize. It can be discouraging to adults who learned as adults (like me.)

You might want to just focus on competitions in your area for awhile and see how that goes.

Some skaters have personal lives that allow them to skate every day and they progress rapidly. Others can only get to a rink 2-3 times a week for a variety of reasons. I've been skating a total of 11 years now and still can't spin! But I can do a waltz jump, half lutz, half flip, and am almost secure on toe loop and salchow, have gained much speed, flow, and great edges.

So perk up sweetie! All that you are experiencing is familiar to many of us! Glad you enjoyed Lake Placid - it is a very unique place! Again, what a thrill for you to compete in AN!!

As someone puts as their signature on a message group:
"Don't laugh at me because I can't do it. Smile at me because I tried!"
We are all smiles for you and you should be very proud of yourself for having the courage to try!!!

Michigansk8er

04-16-2004, 06:58 PM

Zoomana,

You should try competing someday. It's not nearly as scary as testing. I'm the queen of nerves, let me tell you. Although I'm nervous when I compete, it's not the do or die feeling of testing. I freak at every competition, then can't wait until the next one. It's definitely not that way with a test session.

Raine

04-17-2004, 03:14 PM

You guys are the best!

I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only one who struggles mightily with skating. Seeing so many adults zipping around the rink in Lake Placid (and with relatively few years of skating under their belts) skewed my perspective. ;)

Especially since I've been skating since 1972. :oops:

I don't care that much about winning because it's out of my control in a lot of ways, but I'd like to improve and show significant improvement next year. I'm setting goals for next season, and this time I plan to stick to them.

Already I have very fond memories of Lake Placid, and I'm thrilled for my rinkmates, friends, and acquaintances who have succeeded there this past week.

Happy skating,
Raine

jazzpants

04-17-2004, 03:57 PM

Hi, Raine!

I hate to admit this, but you have no idea how jealous I am that I'm not able to skate well enough to compete at AN this year!!! I really wanted to go, particularly this year, b/c of the 10 year anniversary thing and it's in Lake Placid (and everyone brags about how beautiful it is!) All I ever wanted was to do well enough to pass those rotten Bronze tests, particularly the Bronze Moves tests. (And I'm going on my 5th year skating as of June this year.) It's no fun for me to watch a lot of my adult friends go to AN and I'm stuck at home b/c I don't have my act together in terms of skating well enough to pass those Bronze Moves and FS tests. (I've been working on Bronze Moves now for OVER TWO YEARS!!! And you don't wanna know how long I've been working on backspins and loops.) :frus: :evil:

However, I count my blessings b/c I have improved a lot in the overall skating this year in terms of speed and control. (Even my backspins are better!) And for the first time I feel that I will have a reasonable chance at passing my Bronze tests (both of them) this year. But it all comes down to the judges that will be looking at my tests!!! I have a lot of catching up to do in the FS area too... and I still have a lot to work on in basic skating!!! I am determined to skate well enough to pass those tests though, b/c it would be a waste now for me to give up and quit after all the work I put myself through and how close I am now to the goal. (And, hey! Overall, I enjoy the journey of working towards this goal!) ;)

Mel On Ice

04-17-2004, 04:20 PM

jazz, you and I are in the same boat! With AN in KC next year, I have an extra incentive to pass my tests, but the loop is giving me fits and starts. Not at all consistent enough to say I have a loop...

I'll stand behind you if you stand behind me, we'll pass those tests, and we will toast each other's accomplishments at AN next year, no matter our placements.

Raine

04-17-2004, 05:07 PM

Jazz and Mel, I salute your wonderful attitudes! :)

Here's hoping that you pass your bronze moves and FS tests. You'll arrive on the competitive scene with better fundamentals than I did for sure. And although Lake Placid is beautiful, your first AN will be a great experience no matter where it is.

Cheers,
Raine

Terri C

04-17-2004, 07:30 PM

Debbie S

04-17-2004, 08:58 PM

Count me as a person who would like to be eligible to compete Bronze in club competitions. I've been working on my Pre-Bronze moves for 7 months (although I've been doing edges, crossovers, 3 turns, and stroking for a lot longer obviously) and I'm barely ready to test. I was going to test Monday (and hope for my best performance, which would pass me), but the session is full (it's at another club, and closed to guests in overcrowding situations) so it looks like the earliest I'll test my MIF and FS will be mid-May, and I don't even know if that's do-able b/c it's in the middle of exam time for me. I may not test until June, which will definitely keep me out of the Chesapeake Open (and I wanted to do that local comp so badly) and possibly even Wilmington.

I, too, understand the feelings of frustration. I've been working on a loop for over a year. I finally got it to a point a few weeks ago where I could land it properly (on one foot and on an edge, as opposed to my toe) a couple of times in a row, but since then, I've dedicated all of my practice time to my tests so I don't know what shape that jump is in now. I watch kids that were in Basic Skills and FS group lessons with me pass Pre-Pre, Prelim, and (in one case) Pre-Juv moves and get all their singles and start working on their axel. And I first "learned" a flip over a year ago and have yet to land it (and nearly fell while trying one holding on to the wall. File that under strangest falls. But I keep reminding myself that I skate for the fun of it and whether it's a competition or a club show, the most mportant thing is to enjoy the experience and set my own goals, like not hunching over when I land my jumps or flapping my arms while stroking. Hey, I've got to start somewhere. :)

jazzpants

04-17-2004, 10:10 PM

I'll stand behind you if you stand behind me, we'll pass those tests, and we will toast each other's accomplishments at AN next year, no matter our placements. DEAL!!! (to Mel, Terri and Debbie!!!) :mrgreen:

Mrs Redboots

04-18-2004, 04:15 AM

At least you guys are brave enough to do free skating! I do quite literally a minimal amount - I hate jumping and spinning! And I know quite well that, even in artistic/interpretive skating, although I seem to have a gift of being funny on the ice, I won't be really competitive in this country unless I have a loop jump. I don't. I do have a 3-jump (waltz jump), and have a vague sort of cherry-flip (toe-loop, only it's more of a toe-3!) and Salchow (which rotates beautifully on the ice and then I jump backwards). My spin does 2 revolutions on a good day, and usually not even that. And I can't skate backwards!

So okay, I've mostly focussed on dance throughout my skating career, and I know there are one or two skaters I can beat (on a good day) in solo dance at the beginning levels. But really, realistically, I'm not going to get beyond my present level, although I'd like just once to compete in Bronze at a realistic level.

But so what? I have enormous fun trying; Robert and I enjoy competing, and trying very hard not to come last. I have been known to win Interpretive classes (abroad), and even got a Bronze medal in the UK this year (that wasn't 3rd out of 3). So it's fun, and maybe this year we've improved our speed and flow enough not to come last. Maybe....

sk8pics

04-18-2004, 08:47 AM

Mel On Ice

04-18-2004, 11:41 AM

SkateGuard

04-18-2004, 04:23 PM

Raine, I'm sorry you're so frustrated...I didn't do well, either. I am a consultant, and all the travel just wore me out enough that I was no longer motivated to train...and I just sucked! (12th in freestyle qualifying, 16th in interp.) But skating with much better skaters just whacked me in the butt (I can say that, right ;) ), and I am now re-energized to do that periodization thing that my sickness last summer popped me off of.

I wish I had met you while you were there. And I wished you stayed. There are so many great memories, and even though I had a tough year, I skated better than last year.

My only disappointment is that they are discussing changing the age divisions so younger skaters can compete, so I may never meet my original goal of competing as a Gold I.

I do have some gripes with the bronze freestyle event, mainly about how Bronze no longer means beginner the way it used to. But that is another discussion for another thread...

Raine, I hope you continue, and I hope to meet you in KC, if not before!
Erin
(who would like to find her flip and lutz, which disappeared between the warm-up and the competition)

Raine

04-18-2004, 05:16 PM

Erin, congratulations on skating better than last year! That's definitely something I didn't do. I'm glad that you have great memories of LP. I went home on Thursday which I had planned to do all along if I didn't make the final round. It was just too expensive to justify another 3 days, although I would love to have watched more great skating. I'll probably order the highlights video if I hear that it's good.

I had a good practice today, so hope springs eternal!

I agree that with the way Bronze is headed (and I'm proud of the progress of my fellow bronzers), they'll have to establish another group IF they want to keep ANs inclusive. How does Pewter Ladies sound? :lol:

Cheers,
Raine

SkateGuard

04-18-2004, 05:47 PM

Raine, and any other person interesed in purchasing the highlight video. DON'T. They showed at the competitor's party, and it was awful. None of the good interps made it in (including Torvill and Dean, Hoop Girl, and Sonia Henie), and they put cuts of rock videos in it without any skating.

Pewter? I like that :) , but I think it's called Pre-Bronze. It just breaks my heart that beginners no longer have a place at AN's, considering the buzz about not making it a qualifier-only event.

Erin
who knows that AN's will always be open because of the $$ generated by starts...how many people actually go to AN's as spectators? And were they on Lifetime or Oxygen? ;)

Debbie S

04-18-2004, 05:50 PM

I agree that with the way Bronze is headed (and I'm proud of the progress of my fellow bronzers), they'll have to establish another group IF they want to keep ANs inclusive. How does Pewter Ladies sound? :lol:

Well, it's called Pre-Bronze, and it's too bad that they don't have a comp at that level at ANs. I guess it's b/c of space and time.

sk8pics

04-18-2004, 06:46 PM

Thanks, Mel! At least I'd like to pass the bronze moves, the free skate would be tough on this timeline. But I'll keep plugging away. sigh.

And to everyone frustrated by slow progress, I am right there with you! I feel like I must be the slowest learner on the planet sometimes. But lately I do feel like my rate of progress is increasing, so perhaps there's hope. I can see progress month to month now, instead of it taking 6 months! i only hope it continues.

I have noticed too that the level of bronze skating has increased, but I also know a skater who is in class III who has really improved in the last 2 years or so! She's my inspiration because we're similar ages and I see how she's been able to progress. I wonder, though, if the moves test structure has now caused people to get stuck at bronze? People get stuck at pre-bronze because of the moves test and the dreaded backspin, maybe there's a snag in that silver moves test.

Well, good luck to everyone in their endeavors! And thanks, Raine, for starting this whole conversation.

Pat

SkateGuard

04-18-2004, 08:03 PM

I have noticed too that the level of bronze skating has increased, but I also know a skater who is in class III who has really improved in the last 2 years or so! She's my inspiration because we're similar ages and I see how she's been able to progress. I wonder, though, if the moves test structure has now caused people to get stuck at bronze? People get stuck at pre-bronze because of the moves test and the dreaded backspin, maybe there's a snag in that silver moves test.

Pat

Well, the top two Bronze I's in qualifier A are on their Intermediate and Novice moves, respectively, so I don't think Silver Moves are stopping them. I think the move from Bronze to Silver is an axel. To qualify out of Bronze I, you have to be a Silver without an axel.

However, that slide chasse sequence is a killer....

Erin
who has no need to win Bronze...I'll wait until Championship Gold! :lol:
who starts her silver moves this week.....

Terri C

04-18-2004, 08:37 PM

I wonder, though, if the moves test structure has now caused people to get stuck at bronze?

Actually, in some cases it's not the moves themselves, but findiing the time to do them and get them to where they are passing. I had a conversation at a competition this year with a Bronze Ladies competitor who is a very good and consistent skater (she was a medalist at AN this week). She told me that she didn't have the time to do moves. I can see her point in that you realistically have to make a choice whether you do competitions all the time or take time off to get tests passed. That's why I'm not competing this summer at all- plus I may have very little ice time, since our rink LOVES to cut freestyle time and increase the prices! :evil:

sk8er1964

04-18-2004, 08:43 PM

Raine - Sorry I missed you this year :cry: . I enjoyed meeting you in A2.

As far as people and the amount of time they skated - ITA with Michigansk8er...don't believe everything you hear and/or read. For the program, they asked how long you've skated. I answered "9 years as a kid, 2 as an adult". They chose to put 2 years in the program instead of 9/2 or 11. So it looked like I was competing at Champ Gold after skating 2 years :roll: :oops:

As far as your performances, I'm sorry you're not happy with them. Believe me, I am nowhere near thrilled with either of mine. Unfortunately, the judges were right in their placements in my case. :cry: However, I am determined to get the jumps I need solid so next year they won't be a question mark in my program. That's what competitive skating is all about....we set goals and try to reach them. If we do, great. If we don't, there's always next year.

Good luck - remember that we skate because it's fun (yes, it really is - even if we forget it sometimes.) Take a deep breath, and play for a while. Have fun! :D

jazzpants

04-19-2004, 12:31 AM

Jazz, Mel, Debbie, Terri --

Me, too! I want to be part of the club! I've been skating a little more than 5 years, and forget those bronze moves! :frus: Well, actually, I'm starting to have some hope, but everything is such a battle for me to learn. Forget the backspin for now, I just want my forward spin back!

sigh.

Pat, off to her practice and lesson today...The MORE the merrier... :mrgreen: (Eh, that didn't come out right... :oops: I hope you know what I mean...) ;)

Mel: I better pack a box of champagne glasses!!! :P

Re: finding time for Moves... well, in my case, I decided to forgo my FS stuff to fully concentrate on moves for now. I figured that if I build up my fundamentals well enough, then when it's time to work on FS again that I'll be better able to deal with it. Besides, I would like someday to have all sorts of nifty footwork stuff in my program! :mrgreen:

sk8pics

04-19-2004, 05:56 AM

Skateguard- Wow, intermediate and novice moves! I guess that's not that uncommon in the younger age groups.

Terri and Jazzpants -- I completely agree with the whole time thing. I've been spending 20 minutes a week working on only moves with another coach, and the concentrated time on nothing else helps a lot. But 20 minutes a week is obviously not enough. But on the other hand if I stop practicing jumps, I'll lose them. Maybe I'd get them back quickly enough, but I just hate the thought of losing any of my hard-won jumps. I'm such a creature of habit and practice, and there's just not enough time for me to do everything, unfortunately!

Jazzpants --Thanks for the welcome, so to speak!

Pat

SkateGuard

04-19-2004, 07:54 AM

Skateguard- Wow, intermediate and novice moves! I guess that's not that uncommon in the younger age groups.

Actually it is, at least in Bronze. Most bronzes started skating as young adults. (I started at 22; I'm now 29.) So they're usually beginners. But I don't see Intermediate or Novice moves as beginning skaters. (And one of them medaled in pre-gold dance!) And these ladies are both older than me!

If you passed your 3rd figure when you were 16 y.o., you are grandfathered into masters novice. That's why Carl was in Champ Masters Men at Easterns this year. (And yes, he's coming back next year! :D ) But his freestyle was bronze-level (waltz-toe, singles, half-lutz).

However, there were also some very good Bronzes I call "permabronzes" because for whatever reason, they are not ready to even learn the silver moves, even though they have been bronzes for years. One is a professional violinist, so she's afraid of breaking her wrists (and understandably so).

I'm just concerned that as the level of Bronze I goes up, that we will lose starts at that level. It has already dropped from 72 the last time AN's were in LP to 28 this year. I think that aging up, moving up, and the economy has had a lot to do with it, but it's also because we aren't getting a lot of new Bronzes into the fold.

Erin
Who will faint if there is only one group next year, but considering the number of girls who will be moving up, it's possible....

Raine

04-19-2004, 08:28 AM

sk8er1964, I was lucky enough to see your Champ Gold skate on Wednesday night. It was very creditable, perhaps not your best performance, but your footwork is to die for... I was impressed with your cheering section, too! :)

Cheers,
Raine

dani

04-19-2004, 08:53 AM

And I had the pleasure of watching Championship Gold from my hotel room on Wednesday night! For those of you who weren't there, the 1980 rink on channel 22!

Hugs!
Danielle

ps) I am back now too!

lskater

04-19-2004, 09:40 AM

Erin,

I have to say I agree with your worry. The number of starts has gone way down from when I started (1999 Adult Nationals was my first). I don't think people see that the numbers are really decreasing!

I realized after my first competition that I was obviously competing against people who had skated as kids. One local lady skated when she was a kid and just never tested so she skated bronze. She was a much better skater. It looked pretty ridiculous for her to go out, skate, and then have me skate afterward trying to compete against her.

Yeah, you could make an argument that I should skate for the love of it, but I'm naturally a very competitive person and after 7 years of skating, I kinda just gave up because I'll never win against these people!

For an example, on the front page of the USFSA web site, they say that the Gold medal winner for the Masters Men did a triple-triple combination...his scores reached into the 5s. This was unheard of when I skated nationals.....has nationals become an outlet for people who skated when they were younger? If so, then I'm afraid the numbers will continue to dwindle...and you can be as optimistic as you want, but I think people go to nationals to be competitive and we're all just finding that we can't be....

I started skating at age 28 (just FYI) and had attempted to pass my Silver test last year, but failed and now I'm stuck trying to get the moves and I'm upset because I just don't have the time to do both moves and freestyle.......plus I had a baby last year. But despite the baby, I think my desire to skate has been officially "squashed". I still love to skate, but there's no way I'm going to pay out the money to try and get to adult nationals where I'll end up competing against child skaters.......I look silly next to them, believe me.

Maybe after the baby grows up, I'll have the time to start more seriously again, but who will be competing when I'm older? Probably I'll have the same problem, trying to compete against someone who's been skating for 20+ years!

I don't have an answer, so I'll stop complaining.

Michigansk8er

04-19-2004, 04:42 PM

Iskate,

I understand where you are coming from. I started skating at 25, and skated for approximately 2 years. I didn't get back on the ice until I was 45, orther than an occassional public skate. I'm definitely an adult skater...........and now find myself competing against women that are younger than my daughter, women that decide to not fess up that they tested ISI when younger, or that they skated at all because they are now married and who would know. I've heard logic, such as how skating as a kid shouldn't count if you are off of the ice 15 or 20 years, since it's like starting all over again. Baloney, it does too make a difference. I have a definite advantage having skated for a few years in my mid-20's..........and it's not like I was very good after 2 years of adult skating, but when I came back I had my jumps through flip in 6 months and I know that's because I could do them 20 years ago. That being said, skating as a kid has to help a lot, no matter how many years you were off. Just my 2 cents worth. As for mandatory moves, I still remember the USFSA membership chair at GC saying to pass mandatory moves would decrease adult membership, not help it grow. It's probably too soon to know, but he just might be right. It's hard to tell what's playing into the decrease in competitors. Probably a lot of different things.

Michigansk8er

PS: I'm competitive too. After awhile paying $60+ for competition fees for the fun of it, isn't that much fun. I'm not sure I'll ever compete again. If I do get back on the ice it will be just to learn new things and have fun with the feeling of accomplishment for awhile. I hope you will find a way to keep at it though........at least in some capacity.

SkateGuard

04-19-2004, 11:32 PM

Oh, ISkater and MichiganSkater, please don't stop competing.

I am extremely competitive (I was top of my class in high school because of it.), but I also understand that the Adult competitive structure is still growing and changing. (AN's are only 10 y.o., remember)

You two are examples of why we have to keep a "beginner" feel to the bronze event. Most kid skaters are usually grandfathered into Silver (juv or ISI 5 as a kid, I believe). I saw my group, and wow, talk about a competitive Silver I group next year!

But I don't think it's the stereotypical sandbagging. I talked to several skaters in my group who had solid reasons (jobs, first time at AN's, scared of the silver moves) to be bronzes instead of silvers. However, several of them would have been competitive in the Silver event. Go figure. I'd rather medal in silver than bronze, personally.

I watched the DVD of my group. I looked like I was sleep-skating, and I think I'm lucky that I didn't place last. Ugh. But looking at competitive Silvers in Bronze is so frustrating. I have a friend who is trying to get to KC, but I know that if the Bronze I event is as competitive as it was this year, she will seriously run off the warmup back to Chicago, swearing never to compete again. Not that she wants to win, but she'd be so intimidated.

All I know is I have never seen my coach so pissed off. Not that I got a placement I didn't deserve. (I feel I was judged fairly, mind you.) But that many of the girls I competed against were so far above the Bronze level that they could have _medalled_ in the Silver event. Bronze I has become "silver without an axel". And that's just going to prevent young, new skaters from coming into the fold who may have just passed their bronze free so they could go to AN's.

On my list of things to do this week is to mail one of the Mids champs in Bronze I (who couldn't afford to go to LP), and warn her about what to expect in KC so she can start working now to be competitive. I shouldn't have to be doing that!

I think the bottom line is that everyone at AN's should feel competitive at their level, and that's just not happening.

Erin
(if anyone feels that I'm a sandbagger next year, tough beans. I certainly won't be a pre-gold dancer with novice moves who is a bronze because I can't jump or spin.)

Michigansk8er

04-20-2004, 05:33 AM

Skateguard:

I may have to stop competing because of a back injury. It's been a real setback, and I seriously don't know if I'll be able to get back into competition form again. We'll see................but first this fusion of mine has to heal. I have competed at AN (and medaled), so if I can't compete again, I'm still a happy skater. I don't want to compete, however, if I'm not in shape to be competitive (as in have a chance if I don't screw something up).

SkateGuard

04-20-2004, 09:09 AM

Michigansk8ter,

I'm sorry that your back is injured, but it's just awful that you feel like you can no longer be competitive at your level.

That's my point. There should be a place for everyone to feel competitive. And that's not happening in freestyle. And interp is too much of a crapshoot. Mixing silvers and bronzes/golds and masters are putting too much of a disadvantage on the bronzes and golds.

I don't feel competitive at my level in either freestyle or interp, and really wanted to quit skating when I received my interp results. I mean, to be behind silvers who fell, just because they (and here's a shock) skate like silvers?

Speaking of people who do not feel competitive, someone who passed her 8th figure as a kid (and is now in the re-named 56 to death group) may be surprising us at KC....stay tuned. :)

Erin

Figureskates

04-20-2004, 09:41 AM

...56 to death group...

I feel positively Jurassic!!

And if they let the younger adults in then it will be Class V. Sounds like the Fujita scale for tornadoes!!

flo

04-20-2004, 09:48 AM

Michagansk8ter - Whatever you do - enjoy it. How about an interp with some great edges and style?

Gold*starblade

04-20-2004, 10:31 AM

Hi, just joined the group and thought I would comment. I am a returning adult skater, I skated for many years as a child and I know it shows. Here is my problem though, I honestly cannot pass some of the MIF. I know that I should compete at least the silver level when it comes to freestyle but what can I do if I am having problems with alternating 3s? Additionally, I never tested as a child so I don't have to be placed at any level. Now, I have made the decision to wait because I know that these elements will come and it is unfair and unsportsman to compete against beginner skaters. So in the meantime, I continute to be able to land an axel but cannot pass the pre-bronze test!! But, I can do all the elements of Bronze....So, as you can see adult/child skaters also have their demons! :frus:

L

sk8pics

04-20-2004, 12:05 PM

Gold*Blade-- My sympathies on the alternating 3's! I know you're in a difficult position, and I'm sure many are in similar circumstances. I don't know what the solution is, though! I suspect a lot of people get stuck on various moves, even though their freestyle level may be higher.

Good luck!

Pat

lskater

04-20-2004, 12:28 PM

Erin - 56 to death group....hilarious!

Gold-Starblade - Yeah, I see your point. There was lady at my rink that had skated as a child and was required to skate Silver and really there was no way she could be competitive as Silver....so it's unfair to some child skaters as well...I guess that's why I said it's difficult to know what a good answer is. We're all in a odd situation as adults. I think the younger kids don't have this problem because, for the most part, they all started at around the same age (give or take a few years). I really appreciate your take on it, that you're waiting it out until you can compete at a level that is fair.......unfortunately for you, that means you don't get to compete now, maybe when you really WANT to compete.

It can't feel that great to win a gold medal against people who are obviously weaker skaters than you. I would want to win against people who I knew were strong competitors to myself, but I'm not sure everyone feels this way....seems like a medal is all that matters. There's a guy at my rink that purposely didn't test up because he was after a medal. Now if you're comparing that to the standard tests, you would say that the younger kids are definitely going for the medal, and so they would stay at a certain level until they've won.....I'm not sure why I expect it to be different for adults.....I guess I just do. But also I'm speaking from it being embarassing to compete against adults who are SO OBVIOUSLY better than me I guess I think it's unfair. It's not even skaters that skated as a kid...there's also adult skaters that have competed their whole lives in gymnastics, dancing, etc and they have a leg up too....One of the other ladies at my rink was a ballerina for many years with a local company and she was able to do an axel after only skating for 2 years! She had tremendous grace on the ice and there's no way I could've won against her either. So even if the powers that be figured out a way to fairly distribute the competition levels, they couldn't put all the "began as an adult" skaters together either and have it be fair.

However, the point is that adult skating is taking a downturn and it would be great to figure out why. As Erin said above, we are below half of the starts from 1999, 2000 Adult Nationals. When I competed there were 5 groups for Bronze I and now there are only 2. Similarly, there were 5 groups for Silver I and now only 2. Why the change? Is it really all economic? Can't be, because the number of adult skaters in my area has gone down as well....For my area though, I don't see a whole lot of support for adult skating from the clubs, so that could be it (I'm from the Seattle area). Seattle Skating Club cancelled their adult support several years ago, and Highland Skating Club is just slightly more supportive. I was on the SSC Synchro team and the club barely recognized us (and we were the reigning national bronze medalists!).

It seems the California clubs are better at supporting their adults. I see a lot of involvement coming from the Cali clubs still.

Sigh....

flo

04-20-2004, 12:54 PM

Can you all who are comparing starts numbers give the numbers and references? According to the numbers reported at the adult meetings from the registration there was steady to increased overall participation this last year. There will always be shifts in the number of starts within a level. With the moves being implemented in the last couple of years I would expect that there would be a decrease in the starts in lower levels. Instead of passing two test to be able to compete at Nationals, with the required moves it's 4.

lskater

04-20-2004, 01:18 PM

Flo,

The USFSA Web site only lists the last 2 years for Adult nationals:

For 2003, Bronze 1 had groups A,B and C
Silver 1 had groups A, B

For 2002, Bronze 1 had groups A, B and C
Silver 1 had groups A, B and C

Prior to that for 2001, if you do a web search for Adult Nationals 2001, you'll find winners listed for:

2001 Bronze 1 group D although I wasn't able to find out how many in Silver 1

For 2000, I found someone who had won her group D in Silver I.

The numbers that I posted for 1999 and 2000 were from memory. I remember that there were 5 groups for Bronze 1 and just as many for Silver 1 (because I was thinking about moving up).

flo

04-20-2004, 01:35 PM

jenlyon60

04-20-2004, 02:37 PM

I think one also has to look at outside circumstances...many of which it is probably hard to attach numbers to.

Economy... how many people couldn't afford to attend due to $$$, or worry about their jobs or their spouses' jobs?

The unpleasantness abroad... There may well be some normal attendees who are pulling military duty abroad, or just returned from military duty abroad (where they had no access to skating skating rinks), or are getting ready for deployment.

Location...

And so forth...

Michigansk8er

04-20-2004, 03:29 PM

Flo,

Interp is in the back of my mind as a possibility to consider..........but I'll wait to see if I can jump again. Heck, if I can skate again. Still a lot of unknowns. I have skated interp before, and ended up dead last. One judge told me afterwards that I had the highest score technically, but the lowest for presentation (probably that "deer in headlights" look of mine). Gee, I'd think that would mean middle of the pack then, and not dead last. Aargh!!!!!

I do think for me, I need to have one focus. I just don't have time to get both a freestyle and interp program up to where I want them (and I skate a lot, when I'm skating). I'll do one or the other, and give it my all.

Thanks for the suggestion. If I skated like you do, it would be an easy decision. :)

jazzpants

04-20-2004, 03:30 PM

Spreadeagle

04-20-2004, 03:33 PM

For those of you who are concerned that the competittion has gotten tougher, but at the same time are worried that there are fewer starts at AN, you may want to look at the other side of the coin. This year at Lake Placid was my first Adult Nationals and I placed well and had a good time. However, I received a lot of nasty comments related to my skating ability and how I "should move up" and I "don't look like I belong" and how I just did well "because I'm young". I have read some comments in this thread that are along the same lines. For the record, I'm in about the middle of my age category and I am competing at the level that the USFSA decided to put me at based on my test accomplishments. It's also the level that seemed most matched to my skills based on what is and is not required/allowed in a FS program. And no, I'm not holding back on testing to be at a certain level and win.

After I heard some of these comments (yes, they did get to me) I was upset that people would think this about me! :cry: But then I watched the video of my final round and I realized that the entire group was very close to my skill level. I didn't think I stood out at all. So I guess all these negative comments are mostly "sour grapes". However, they seemed intentionally hurtful, as well as pretty unexpected from adults. I thought these kinds of things only happened at the kid's competitions, and the adults were all encouraging and supportive. I guess I was wrong about that and it makes me hesitant to attend another Adult Nationals. So those of you who are making these kind of comments may want to watch it, or you will scare more people away. Of course, I guess if you are mean enough to the people who beat you, maybe they won't come back and you would win. To me, that kind of victory would be even more meaningless and hollow than a victory over people who might not be quite as skilled as you. I guess that what I am trying to say is, if you want more competitors at Adult Nationals, don't make negative comments about ANY of them. There's always going to be a skater that comes in 1st place as well as a skater who comes in last place.

Also, don't criticize someone until you have walked in their shoes (or skated in their boots). There are many reasons for not moving up a level other than sandbagging to win. Has anyone heard the story about how Michelle Kwan secretly tested her senior free and her coach, Frank Carroll, was really angry because he felt she wasn't ready to move up? The coach and the skater know what is best.

Fortunately, I did meet lots of very friendly and positive people in Lake Placid! It makes up for all the negativity. :D

Michigansk8er

04-20-2004, 03:42 PM

The numbers in the individual levels are shifting, and to be expected. When I first competed in bronze there were 70 + of us, and relatively few at the higher levels. However we also need to look at the overall participation numbers to get the total picture. I also don't see al lack of support from the clubs around here on the east coast. Our adults are well supported - in fact we delayed our departure to Lake Placid because one of the kids in the club was organizing the send off party for us. The skill level of our adults ranges from no test to gold. The best way to get support for the adults is to be active in the club. We are officers and board members, and quite supportive of the club.

That is terrific that your club is supportive. I think a lot of clubs are missing the boat by not supporting adult skaters, however. Believe me, I've tried the volunteer route. Every adult that has been a board member in my old club is now an individual member. I finally gave up too. Even though several of us have medaled at AN, we have never heard so much as "congrats".....yet when the kids go to Regionals you'd swear it was the Olympics. I was actually told that my medal did not count because it was pewter, and that AN was not a "real" competition anyhow.

skateflo

04-20-2004, 03:56 PM

I was looking forward to seeing the survey and must admit that I was disappointed in the content.

There is a significant undercurrent of unhappiness with the direction adult skating has taken and I think that is part of the reason starts may be down in the lower levels - it's not only the required MIF structure or freestyle tests or even age categories.

This undercurrent actually started several years ago and others echoed my thoughts at the time. I don'tfeel it was properly addressed in the survey although people could always add a page of their own thoughts to the survey.

The true adult skater (who never put on skates until they were an adult) being pushed further down the competitive ladder as returning skaters skills put them up the ladder.

The competitiveness snarking was becoming more like the kids - the atmosphere has changed since the first AN.

The judges still didn't get the picture, both on how to correctly mark the adult, and a number still have prejudices against adult skaters even testing - "oh, just have fun" or "adults do dance" as if freestyle was beyond our dreams.

Clubs still are not supportive of adult skaters.
Rinks still are not supportive of adult skaters.

Should another survey be done, I would be interested in learning more specifically about the adult skater like:
Did you ever skate as a child - a little, fairly regular, took lessons (group, private)
Did you start skating after the age of 25, what age?
How did you start; On my own, on my own with a friend who knows how to skate, Learn to Skate program, rink group lessons, private lessons
What type of rink sessions do you skate on; public, club, rink open sessions, adult only sessions, always with the kids.
How many hrs a week do you skate
Is there a Club at your rink - USFS, ISI, local town club, no club
Did you join; USFS, ISI, local club (some town rinks have their own clubs)
Have you ever tested USFS/ISI MIF; Freestyle
If not, why not; do it on my own with coach, coach does not encourage it,
standards too difficult, do not have enough time, I've heard too many horror stories of unfair judging, not enough money, lack of adult skating support (no other adult skaters around, adults at my rink don't test,) no room for 'individual USFS' members at club testing sessions.
When you tested, did you feel the judges were understanding of adult requirements?
If you tested, did you find the overall experience satisfactory, discouraging, encouraging, exciting?
Does the thought of competing/testing with other adults who are returning skaters discourage you, not bother you at all, somewhat bothers you?
Do you ever wish there was a testing/competing structure specifically for adults who truly learned to skate as adults?

Remember the Vision 2008 speaks of medals, money, and a club in every rink. The USFS is goal oriented. So to reach goals, bring in the younger skaters who retain their skills, set up international competitions, and bring in the money. Yes, I feel these skaters should continue to skate if they truly love it. I just feel the adult skater who learned as an adult is being pushed aside to make room for returning skaters.

All this is just my opinion.

jenlyon60

04-20-2004, 04:13 PM

I too, as a non-FS skater, was not 100% impressed with the survey questions. I felt that the wording of some of the questions was front-loaded towards the responses desired by some of the FS skaters.

I definitely think a good demographics analysis of the adult skating community needs to be done and made available to the appropriate committees (Singles/Pairs, Adult, etc) and available to the adult skating world.

Besides the demographics questions mentioned in the previous posting, perhaps one question should include something like the following: "if skated as a kid, please annotate tests passed"

lskater

04-20-2004, 04:13 PM

Skateflo -

Well put! I like your questions, I think they really get to the heart of adult skating.

sk8pics

04-20-2004, 07:20 PM

Spreadeagle -- I'm sorry people were nasty to you, and I'm sorry that you see nastiness in this thread. I think there are very real issues and frustrations on both sides, and it doesn't help for anyone to cut anyone else down. I do think more snarkiness has developed in adult competitions, but I have no idea why, although in general my own experiences have been positive. And since I wasn't there, I don't know how different people might have perceived your program in your group. You know, sometimes things on video look completely different than they do live; maybe you had more speed that didn't show up on the video? I dunno, I'm just trying to suggest an alternative explanation for people thinking that you were above that level. Maybe you're right about the sour grapes, I've seen that too. Regardless of what people thought, if you were at the level that the USFS organization decided was appropriate, then those people should be ashamed of themselves, and especially for being nasty about it. Whatever your circumstances, they should be ashamed of themselves! :(

I think people are expressing frustration with their own situation, on both sides of the issue. I haven't reviewed the whole thread, but I don't remember anyone specifically criticizing others, although maybe you meant the nasty comments that got back to you at nationals.

And Skateflo -- I really liked your post as well, and agreed with everything you said.

Pat

Spreadeagle

04-20-2004, 10:02 PM

sk8pics, thanks for your kind words. I can understand that people are frustrated that skill levels are increasing while they seem to be "left behind", I just wish that instead of making this a negative thing, they could use it as a new goal to strive for. And I just wanted to let people know that there is another side to the story. I think the negative comments I heard in Lake Placid are still ringing in my ears and making me feel like everyone is "out to get me", which is probably why I detected negative tones in this thread.

Having said that, there was one comment in particular in this thread that I felt was unnecessary and negative:

(if anyone feels that I'm a sandbagger next year, tough beans. I certainly won't be a pre-gold dancer with novice moves who is a bronze because I can't jump or spin.)

The woman in question has jumps and spins that are on a par with the majority of all the other Bronze competitors. She CAN jump and spin. To say that she cannot is insulting. Her jumps and spins are not Sasha Cohen quality, but that's probably why she is competing in Bronze!

I really hope that the increased level of competitiveness amongst adults doesn't drive anyone away, but instead motivates them to work that much harder on their skills! Then the medal, when they do win it, will be that much more satisfying! 8-)

vesperholly

04-20-2004, 10:50 PM

ITA Spreadeagle. Hopefully by my first AN, I will have my Novice moves and Silver dances. Neither of those tests will make me any more likely to have a consistent axel or any whiff of doubles though! :frus:

sk8pics

04-21-2004, 06:00 AM

I can understand that people are frustrated that skill levels are increasing while they seem to be "left behind", I just wish that instead of making this a negative thing, they could use it as a new goal to strive for.
Yeah, Spreadeagle, I agree with this idea, but it's easy to become discouraged. I know that, hard as I may work, I will never be at a level with someone my age who skated a lot as a kid.

(quoted) (if anyone feels that I'm a sandbagger next year, tough beans. I certainly won't be a pre-gold dancer with novice moves who is a bronze because I can't jump or spin.)
The woman in question has jumps and spins that are on a par with the majority of all the other Bronze competitors. She CAN jump and spin. To say that she cannot is insulting.
Actually, the original comment had confused me, and it sounded to me like she is planning to move up to silver, not stay in bronze. Either way, she has to decide what's best for her just like everyone else.

BTW Speadeagle, I like your forum name because I just learned how to do a spread eagle about a month ago! It was very exciting to me because I'd never thought I'd be able to do one. It's a baby spread eagle, more like an eaglette :roll: but still it's cool.

Pat

flo

04-21-2004, 09:49 AM

Anyone who has additional comments about the survey, or topics not covered in the survey is free (as they always have been) to contact the adult skating chair.
skateflo - the date of birth and date you started skating is asked for (questions 3 and 4), the rest is simple math. The USFSA has records of all adult testing. Additional comments concerning feelings of fairness and such in judging would be best presented in a thoughtful letter to the committee.
Jenlyon60 - a demographics analysis has been conducted and presented. There were no questions "front-loaded towards the responses desired by some of the FS skaters" The questions were developed to be as open as possible while still being able to gather meaningful and measurable information. And all tests passed were asked for (question 6).
I think it may be important for all of us to remember is that the adult committee and is made up of volunteers. For all of you wishing changes in the current system - I would suggest you do something positive in that direction. Not everyone has a supportive club to work with, or has the time or can be a delegate or active club member, but if we all have the time to complain, then we also can take the time to send a constructive letter.

lskater

04-21-2004, 09:55 AM

Gold*starblade

04-21-2004, 10:56 AM

Iskater, I am so impressed with your dedication! It is no wonder I cannot get my alternating 3s, I only skate one freestyle a week and one public skate. I wish I could afford to do more and maybe this is another issue for some of us returning to skating, not being able to dedicate the time or money to properly train for our previous level of skating. As a kid I skated about 5 hours a week, more if I count public skates. I wish I had the answer, but I suppose that it will not be settled any time soon, instead we all must do what's best for our own skating.

Michigansk8er

04-21-2004, 12:16 PM

Iskater,

You sound a lot like me. The good news is that while there are some I will never catch.............I have placed ahead of skaters younger than my daughter on occassion!!!! :) Of course, now I'm at the age where just hanging onto what I have takes 10 hours a week on the ice, plus lessons, lessons and more lessons (or was, when I was actually on the ice).

Mrs Redboots

04-21-2004, 12:45 PM

Time, money, and in some cases middle-aged bodies!

There is one skater I know who has competed in almost every Adult Nationals there has been, except one year when she was out through injury. She has almost always come last in her class, but has continued to compete, and thoroughly enjoy herself, every year - and this year, she not only didn't come last in her freestyle class, but finished very nearly half-way up the lists in her Interpretive! I am just so pleased for her! :)

I'm in a similar case - we bob around the bottom of our level in dance, trying not to come last and being incredibly pleased with ourselves when we don't! But skating wouldn't be the same without competitions! On the other hand, as one of my friends commented the other day, there is the tension between preparing for competition, as we are doing right now, and ever learning any new dances well enough to enjoy them! Ah well.....:roll:

skateflo

04-21-2004, 02:40 PM

To Flo - my 'survey' questions were more for tryiing to find out why people are not testing or competing. The AN survey did address this in the moves section. There was not a question about why someone is not competing at all - except implying that you had competed and now either are decreasing or increasing your number of competitions. Some may be testing but not competing. But regardless, I will be sending a personal letter along with my survey to AN.

As we have seen via several threads on this particular message group, there are a number of issues that are effecting adult skating. I just feel that those on the local level who are not testing or competing should have a voice and their voices too should be heard. I would think the USFS would want to know why these adults are not participating more.

I also still stand by an earlier expression that surveys by the PSA and the judges would be helpful. They view adults from a different perspective. I know my coach has made comments about teaching adults and how it differs so much, physically and psychologically, that I have to wonder if other coaches are finding similar roadblocks and how they help the adult skater deal with them.

Judges too have their difficulties. With the overall number of competitions happening judges are being spread very thin. Adults may be skating before judges that have no clue or have their own prejudices. I know, that's life, and no one said life was fair.

flo

04-21-2004, 03:00 PM

Skateflo - As I said all comments are welcome. As far as those not testing or competing, it may be of interest to find out why, but after that you will not have the same experience base as those who do test and compete to comment on the current program (which is testing and competing). Also, any proposals or changes made from the results of the survey will not have as great (if any) impact on those not testing and competing as it will on those participating. With limited time and the number of current issues the priority is the active skaters.

Figureskates

04-21-2004, 03:13 PM

Having read most of what has been said here plus attending AN as a spectator rather than a competitor, let me throw in my 2 cents.

As a 58 year old figure skater, I have every intention of competing some day, if only once just to say I did it. The problem I find is that it takes a long time to get your feet to do what the brain wants. I have been working on the alternating 3's for about 6 months now and yes they are coming along but the process is sometimes painfully slow, but I am getting there. I think older adults need a lot more patience than young adults and kids...trying watching your niece do the forward pre-juv pattern perfectly on the third try...that's enough to make any adult quit.

Another thing which I see implied is that the older skaters have more respect for the younger skaters than the younger skaters do for the older. I know the answer to that one. Older skaters remember what it was like to be young, but there is no way that a younger skater can imagine what it is to be older. For this reason, older skaters will always have problems testing or competing before younger judges. To make the adult skating world more balanced, I think any committee should include some older skaters.

Just my $.10...a penny doesn't go as far as it use to!!

garyc254

04-21-2004, 04:00 PM

After reading all of this, I can really find substance for my stance of "no testing and no competing". It would be too frustating.

Careygram

04-21-2004, 04:14 PM

I didn't skate as a kid I was a gymnast but I get asked this alot. Normally I don't compete but I was at adult nationals and truthfully, I skate for fun and I don't listen to negative talk. If you listen to what people have to say and let it affect you you definitely won't enjoy skating. I don't care what other people say and do, I just care about what I do and how I feel about skating. I don't need medals or accolades, I just feel good about myself. If you want to compete and get medals, if you get a medal, feel good and proud and ignore negative speak and if you don't get a medal or feel other people have beaten you unfairly because of levels, age groups.....maybe competition isn't for you. I still like adult nationals and I think that anyone who goes should go because they love skating, not to show off or complain about the aftermath of doing well/not doing well.

Another nickel from me. I'll be broke soon :lol:

skateflo

04-21-2004, 04:39 PM

Thanks Flo for your explanation and who the survey was targeted too. I guess I misunderstood the goal. I will still send in my survey along with my letter tomorrow. Your explantion also explained what the priorities are for the adult committee. At least they are trying to understand part of the problem and I commend them for that.

kisscid

04-21-2004, 05:04 PM

I thought of this last night as maybe a good description of how I feel at skating competitions against those who skated as children:

It's like I'm running in a race, except that some of the other racers get to start about 10 feet in front of me. Did that make me want to be better and practice more? Yes, at first it did...I was driven and absolutely determined. I worked 10+ hours a week. I worked off-ice, I worked so hard the people at the rink gave me a nick-name "The Determminator". I spent $200/month on lessons and even more on practices....up to $600/month on skating total. I worked with a coach in the morning and then went to work late, meaning that I had to stay at work until later in the evening. I ate lunch at my desk. I stretched for half-an-hour before every practice.

But sure enough, at the next race, there were those runners up there, starting 10 feet ahead of me. By that time, some were actually starting 15 feet ahead of me.

Anyway, as I was up feeding my baby last night, I thought about that and thought that it was a good analogy for how I felt.

Well we all develope at different paces. I did skate when I was younger. In my teens for about 7 years. When I stepped back the ice now 16+ years later it's really not the same. I started at the same time another lady did She may be about 5 years younger than me - Maybe? She had never skated as a child. She has learned everything quicker and better than I have. She's already doing full rotation jumps while I'm not even jumping at all. Just because I skated when I was younger does not always mean I would be the better skater in a competition. There are so many factors involved Ice Time, Coach, Equipment, off ice-training, a just down right natural ability. I would hate to be made to skate, test or compete at higher levels than I am really ready for just because I skated as a child. Adversely to that - I know that because I skated when I was younger I had a better sence of balance right off the bat this time. I think for the pre-bronz and bronz levels the fact that you skating in youth may make a difference, but once we get to silver and especially Gold levels I think it pretty much evens the field out.
Wholly cow - I just babbled a whole bunch and never even made a point. I quess my point is that everyone developes at different paces and I don't think it's fair to single out one group of adult skaters from another just because they skated as children. I suck now - I did as a child too. Please don't penalize my for that.
cid

Michigansk8er

04-21-2004, 06:40 PM

there is no way that a younger skater can imagine what it is to be older.

But bless their hearts..........they really think if we want if enough, we can do anything we put our minds to.

I figure if the top skaters eventually stop doing triples, then start to limit their doubles..........I'm really in trouble at 50 and barely Silver. :lol:

SkateGuard

04-21-2004, 07:23 PM

re: my comment about sandbagging...

Actually, the original comment had confused me, and it sounded to me like she is planning to move up to silver, not stay in bronze. Either way, she has to decide what's best for her just like everyone else.

Pat

Once again, I write before I think. I competed against the skater in question, and I was in the locker room, trying to avoid the mayhem that is AN's. My coach, who has been coaching all levels for 30 years, came into the locker room absoultely livid after she skated. Her opinion: "She does not belong in bronze. She is a gold level blade-to-ice skater." I watched the DVD. Yes, in terms of her jumping and spinning, she is a mid-level bronze skater. But she should have been in silver, if not gold considering the overall quality of her skating. When I said she couldn't jump or spin, I meant "as a silver or gold, which is probably her appropriate level based on the quality of her skating," not that she couldn't jump or spin whatsoever.

I knew going in that I had no chance to make final round. And I knew that I wouldn't skate my best. Trying to deal with my off-ice life was sapping all of my skating energy. :cry: But I had two friends who used the level of skating in the final group from last year as a base for their training for this year. And they got creamed. The irony is, none of us really wanted to win or medal. We just wanted to skate well and be competitive. Well, after the morning warm-up, I thought a judge would have come over to my coach and asked me to leave, that they didn't know why I deserved to be there.

I know that it's normal for the skating ability to be higher than the level for the kids, but since our Nationals are funded by entry fees, we are going to lose starts if the competitive level of a Bronze skater at AN's is dramatically above a typical Bronze. And that's what I'm upset about. I'm certainly not going to encourage my friends who stayed at home this year to enter next year unless they have strong silver-level elements.

And if I'm callous or pissy, sorry. I just feel like if you are at a high level in moves or dance, you shouldn't be a bronze--no matter how poorly you jump or spin. Bronze is a beginner level, and I just felt like my friends, one of whom we thought would be a shoo-in for finals, were competing against a stacked deck because they are progressing at a normal pace. And one of my friends has passed her pre-juv moves and bronze dances!

What's best for me...good question. My point was that before I test my silver free, I'm going to pass 1) pre-bronze and bronze dance 2)pre-juv moves and 3) silver moves, because that's the only way I will feel competitive enough to schlep out the $120 to compete. (I want to feel like I'm skating against peers, not higher-level skaters--that's what Gold is for.) And if I am a bronze on Jan 15th, there will be someone complaining about me next year. At this point, I really don't care.

Erin

lskater

04-21-2004, 07:53 PM

Erin,

To be honest, I think that's the way to go. Wait until you're a great Bronze....

As for the child-skater thing that I was discussing above. Yes, obviously there are exceptions (child-skaters that haven't skated in many, many years...one of my previous posts talks about a lady in that very situation who was required to skate Silver and there was no way she could be competitive at that level). That's why I also said in my previous posts that there were no good answers.

If I had it in for all child-skaters, then I would have said that the USFSA should not allow anyone who skated as a child to compete at AN. But that's so obviously not the right answer because of people like you and the lady that I used to skate with. So really, as I keep saying there's no good answer, which is one of the reasons why I don't complain to the USFSA...I don't feel like I should complain unless I have a good alternative.

jazzpants

04-21-2004, 08:16 PM

What's best for me...good question. My point was that before I test my silver free, I'm going to pass 1) pre-bronze and bronze dance 2)pre-juv moves and 3) silver moves, because that's the only way I will feel competitive enough to schlep out the $120 to compete. (I want to feel like I'm skating against peers, not higher-level skaters--that's what Gold is for.) And if I am a bronze on Jan 15th, there will be someone complaining about me next year. At this point, I really don't care.Of course, keep in mind though, that if there were rules set to keep the "better moves but lousy jumps and spins skaters" out, the sandbaggers will simply NOT test but keep practicing their moves. :P

Believe me, I'm not looking forward to eventually competing at Bronze FS, given what I'm reading here. I certainly don't have the speed or the moves for it, much less the FS part of it. Certainly I've been tempted to just stay pre-Bronze despite that until I'm "competitive enough." But my goal was simply to pass Bronze FS and be eligible to compete at AN. I'd be delighted to just make it to the final round, but I don't expect to at least for another couple of years or so... and I'm okay with that, since I'm there for the experience of being at AN (and the competitor's party :twisted: ) -- nothing else!

Edited to add: Besides, if I have to wait 'til I'm a great Bronze FS skater to compete at AN, it will NEVER happen!!! I just don't have that physical "ballerina form" and will never develop that. So I'll just work with what God gave me and see how it comes out in the end.

JulieN

04-22-2004, 12:53 AM

Wow -- I never thought I'd cause so much controversy... :roll:

I am the "woman in question" -- the 4th place Bronze Ladies skater who also placed 4th in Pre-Gold dance.

Let me begin by saying that I don't agree that Bronze is for beginners. Pre-Bronze is for beginners. If you can pass the Bronze FS and moves test, you are not a beginner.

For those who care, I am not a "kid skater" (not that this matters in the least -- I do not distinguish between those who did or did not skate as children. We are all adult skaters in my eyes). I have no prior dance, gymnastics or any other athletic skills from my youth. I started skating at 21 -- I'm 34 now. I took FS and figures lessons for a year and a half, passing my Preliminary FS and figures test in 1992 (I was not old enough to test the Adult track, and they did not have Pre-Pre at the time).

It was not until my dance partner and I split up (Nov '01) that I decided to skate FS again. My first FS competition was the 2002 Vail Invitational, and I placed 5th out of 7 skaters in Bronze Ladies. Jennifer Hanson won this event, and she had placed 15th in Bronze Ladies I at AN 2002. This gives you an idea how far behind I was in FS.

In Nov 2003, I competed in the Utah Intermountain competition, again in Bronze Ladies. Here I placed 3rd out of 4 skaters. Lori Fussell (11th in Bronze Ladies I at AN 2003) and Deb Curtis (8th in Bronze Ladies I at AN 2004) tied for 1st place. It's not that I skated poorly -- my jumps and spins just weren't up to par. (Side note -- this was a fun, all adult competition. I highly recommend it!!!)

After this competition, I decided that my goal for AN was to make the final round in Bronze. Based on my placement at the Utah competition, I knew I had my work cut out for me. Since my dance partner and I are back together and competing, I devoted my early morning practices to dance. I added two to three practices per week to work on my FS elements. My coach created a new program for me to better suit my style. She also increased the difficulty in the footwork section, as she felt that was my strength. In short, I worked my a$$ off to accomplish my goal, and went to AN in the best shape of my life!

For those of you who thought that this was cakewalk for me, and that I entered this competition just to collect a medal, you are way off. From what I am reading here, it is a valid excuse to stay in Bronze if you cannot pass your Silver Moves, even if you have jumps and spins that are Silver level or beyond. But if you are like me, and have Silver (and Gold) moves, but cannot get the required 3 revolutions in a camel spin to pass the Silver FS test, well you are a sandbagger to compete in Bronze. :??

So that's my story! It's kinda funny reading about myself in this thread. BTW, my name is Julie. If you still feel the need to talk about me, you can use my name instead of "the woman in question" or "the pre-gold dancer doing novice moves". :lol:

I did meet many many great Bronze Ladies, including a few who came up to me to compliment my skating and congratulate me! I did not receive any negative comments, or anyone who said I should be skating Silver (I would have taken that as a compliment!! :P )

sk8pics

04-22-2004, 06:26 AM

Julie --Welcome to the discussion! Wow, you certainly worked very hard to accomplish your goals. Congratulations! And I'm glad you enjoyed your AN experience, and that you didn't experience any negative comments.

I've enjoyed reading this whole discussion and getting other people's perspectives. There's a lot to think about.

And to Flo - You sounded frustrated with this discussion and implied that all we are doing is complaining and said that we should provide feedback, etc. Well, I don't think people are just complaining at all, but illustrating different points of view, and this is after all, a discussion board. I for one did fill in the survey and send it in with some handwritten comments, and that's all I can do for right now.

To Gary -- Yes, testing and competing can be stressful and frustrating at times, and of course it's a diverse group that is being lumped together. But the accomplishment of passing a test is great and it feels wonderful! And managing to put a program together and actually go out and skate it in a competition and actually do everything, or even just make a credible try--it's a great achievement for someone like me, and is so exciting! I wouldn't want to give that up for anything.

Pat

Mrs Redboots

04-22-2004, 07:41 AM

After reading all of this, I can really find substance for my stance of "no testing and no competing". It would be too frustating.Oh, no - it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on, it really, really is!

Figureskates

04-22-2004, 08:03 AM

Gary- I found testing stressful but oh so satisfying when you are done and have passed!!

flo

04-22-2004, 09:23 AM

Sk8pics - I most certainly did not imply that "all you are doing is complaining". There's a difference in "discussion" and complaining, and there are some of each going on here. If you filled out your survey, then your comments will be represented.

Spreadeagle

04-22-2004, 10:16 AM

BTW Speadeagle, I like your forum name because I just learned how to do a spread eagle about a month ago! It was very exciting to me because I'd never thought I'd be able to do one. It's a baby spread eagle, more like an eaglette :roll: but still it's cool.

Thanks! I love spread eagles, they are by far my favorite skating move. Good luck with your eaglette, I am sure that if you nurture it, it will grow! :D

Back on topic....
I'm glad that Julie posted to clear up some of the confusion and rumors. I hope that people now have more perspective on why she competed (and rightly so) in Bronze. I would like to add a few points to what she said. Your freestyle competition level is determined by your freestyle test level. If, as Julie said, she cannot get the required 3 revolutions in a camel to pass the Silver test, how can she be considered a silver level skater? To be a Gold level skater, you must have an axel to pass the gold test. If she doesn't have an axel, how could she be considered a Gold skater? It certainly doesn't sound like Julie is neglecting her freestyle moves in favor of her MITF and dance so that she can be a bronze sandbagger. It just happens that she is better and more experienced at MITF and dance than freestyle. What is wrong with that?

Another point of clarification: just because you compete in pre-gold dance and are working on novice moves does not mean you are a pre-gold dance and have novice moves. To "have" novice moves I believe you have to have passed the test. It's a difficult test and I'm sure most people spend many months working before their moves are test-ready. Since I'm not a dancer, I don't know all the rules of dance, but I believe you are allowed to compete "up" from your test level. So theoretically you could compete in pre-gold even if you are still working on the silver dances.

To Erin:
I don't know who your coach is, and I mean no insult to her, but I find her behavior a little disappointing. IMO, the coach is there not only to develop and polish your skills, but also to show you how to behave as a skater. This includes on-ice etiquette such as yielding to skaters who are skating their program as well as off-ice etiquette like good sportsmanship. If a coach is b*tching about sandbaggers, what kind of example does that set for her students? Especially in a public place like the locker room, and on online forums! What if a judge had overheard the comment or it got back to the judges? It's no wonder you are upset about people sandbagging, it seems you learned it from your coach!

As far as Bronze skaters doing silver and higher elements, I would disagree with that. In fact, I watched the DVD of the Bronze I event and I was surprised at how many skaters weren't even doing Bronze level elements! One of the requirements for a Bronze FS test is a backspin. My coach was adamant that I had to have an exceptional backspin in my Bronze program, that this was one thing that would make a huge difference. So I was shocked to see so few Bronze skaters doing one. In addition, what I thought seemed to make the difference in who placed well and who didn't (over all the events that I got to see at AN, not just Bronze) was mistakes. Those who didn't make any mistakes and stood up placed well. The ones who looked tentative, fell, or botched something did not place as well.

One more thing: It's a long time between Jan 15 (the deadline for AN app's) and April 15, the actual competition. It is quite possible to make a huge improvement in your skating during that time, especially since your FS test level cannot change during this time. I know that for myself, during this time I was just coming back from an injury that kept me off ice for about 2 months. Jumping was painful for me. So what I really focused on was my in-between skating, MITF, and mental training to overcome my nerves. What I was most proud of about my performance at AN was not where I placed, but that I controlled my nerves and I did everything in my program for the first time, without any major mistakes. If there is one thing I have learned about skating (and perhaps life in general), it is that you can't control what other people do. You can only control yourself.

Sorry for the long-winded post!

dcden

04-22-2004, 10:18 AM

I have been reading some of these posts and I think there's a lot of hurt feelings on both sides of the "sandbagging" issue. I don't claim to have a solution that is satisfying for everyone, but there are a few things to keep in mind.

First, in any skill level, be it Bronze or Masters or anything in between, there are always going to be some skaters who are at the top of that level, bordering on the next level up, and those who have just met the test level. This will probably always be the case. There is no easy way to mitigate this. One could create a competition where the skill levels are divided such that every group has only 4-6 skaters, but the descriptions of such events would be incredibly cumbersome (e.g. "Bronze FS with no higher than Pre Juv Moves and Bronze Dance, minus flying camel, ages 25-35"). Also, I think it would take away from the meaning of a national medal if AN were a competition where everyone was either on the podium or one or two spots away.

Second, based on Julie's (i.e. "skater in question"'s ;) ) description, there doesn't seem to be any viciousness or cut-throat behavior in how she got to Bronze Ladies I final. It seems kind of a roundabout way through doing ice dance for many years, but ultimately there's nothing wrong with the level she's in. Also, there's a skater in my club who has failed the Silver FS test 4 or 5 times because of the camel spin as well, but he's a wonderful skater and probably would be looked at as a sandbagger in Bronze (he won at AN a few years ago in Bronze). He wants to be in Silver very badly, but he's having trouble testing at the moment. So I hear where Julie is coming from. (Besides, if you wanted to see what I thought was questionable behavior, you should have seen the Silver-level guy who did a double toe loop in his 6 minute warmup, even though you are only allowed to do up to Axel in Silver... but I digress...)

Third, I think we can learn a lot from this exchange actually. Instead of letting a disappointing placement get you down, try to let it motivate you to do better. When we look at our videos from AN, we can all see what the higher placing skaters have that we don't have. Instead of rueing the situation, you should say to yourself, "Hey, I'm going to get that flying camel/Axel/good edges/etc. by next year too!" All in all, I would hope that everyone would try to see the AN competitive experience as a positive learning experience, and one that helps you grow as a skater, athlete, & person.

PattyP

04-22-2004, 11:11 AM

My 2 cents...

When I heard someone complain that I was a "sandbagger" I just smiled and took it as a very nice compliment! I would love to think that I might look like a "Gold Level" skater. I did make final round, but did not medal, ended up 6th (stupid axel!). I'm now working on my test program and will test until I pass it. The sandbagging comments gave me the confidence to believe that I can do it!

PattyP (soon to be Gold...haha)

kisscid

04-22-2004, 12:02 PM

Mrs Redboots

04-22-2004, 12:51 PM

I wish, in many ways, we had a series of adult tests that were taken seriously; NISA, or Skate-UK, or whatever they call themselves these days, do try, bless them, but every time they put in a series of less difficult tests, skaters see them as inferior and won't take them. Even with our present system, where there are ten standard levels, and everybody takes the first six or seven (I think) levels, many coaches won't put their skaters in for the higher levels, but insist on their transferring to the competitive stream, even if they aren't really that sort of skater.

I'm thankful that adults don't have such issues; nor do we try to take out our opposition in the warm-up (at least, not deliberately), or fail to wish one another "Good luck"..... I love adult competition because, although we're all there to skate our absolute best, we can enjoy our competition's great skating, too!

daisies

04-22-2004, 04:29 PM

I don't know who your coach is, and I mean no insult to her, but I find her behavior a little disappointing. IMO, the coach is there not only to develop and polish your skills, but also to show you how to behave as a skater. This includes on-ice etiquette such as yielding to skaters who are skating their program as well as off-ice etiquette like good sportsmanship. If a coach is b*tching about sandbaggers, what kind of example does that set for her students? Especially in a public place like the locker room, and on online forums! What if a judge had overheard the comment or it got back to the judges? It's no wonder you are upset about people sandbagging, it seems you learned it from your coach!

If there is one thing I have learned about skating (and perhaps life in general), it is that you can't control what other people do. You can only control yourself.

Spreadeagle, your whole post was so well written, but I felt the need to highlight these portions because I agree 100%. I have read a lot of posts here and on other forums where a skater blames his or her placement on the judges not getting the program, or on the sandbaggers, or on their club not being a judge's favorite .... everything except maybe the possibility that perhaps the skater her- or himself just got beat fair and square. It reeks of bad sportsmanship, and I'm glad you were able to express it so eloquently, because I certainly could not have done so without totally going off! (Though, as dcden pointed out, nothing was as bad as the Silver 2 Man doing a huge double toe on warmup. Now that was the epitome of bad sportsmanship!)

JulieN, I am so happy you posted here, but at the same time I am embarrassed that you even had to. You are a true sports(wo)man. Congratulations to you on all of your accomplishments!

manleywoman

04-22-2004, 06:07 PM

Spreadeagle, your whole post was so well written, but I felt the need to highlight these portions because I agree 100%. I have read a lot of posts here and on other forums where a skater blames his or her placement on the judges not getting the program, or on the sandbaggers, or on their club not being a judge's favorite .... everything except maybe the possibility that perhaps the skater her- or himself just got beat fair and square. It reeks of bad sportsmanship, and I'm glad you were able to express it so eloquently, because I certainly could not have done so without totally going off! (Though, as dcden pointed out, nothing was as bad as the Silver 2 Man doing a huge double toe on warmup. Now that was the epitome of bad sportsmanship!)

JulieN, I am so happy you posted here, but at the same time I am embarrassed that you even had to. You are a true sports(wo)man. Congratulations to you on all of your accomplishments!

i have to agree with all of this too. I hate these threads.

The vast majority of adult skaters are NOT sandbaggers...they have life issues, job issues, or skating issues (like not being able to do ONE element on a test) that do not allow them to pass tests. And I've heard enough adults complaining about their placements, blaming it on everything BUT themselves, that I get skeptical when one accusses another adult of sandbagging. I think one the complainer gets home and watches the video they lose all their delusions about how good they really were.

Overall and for the most part, I think the levels are working pretty well as they are. As a 32-year old who was a former child skater, I frequently get beaten by skaters much younger AND much older than I am (HALF of those Masters Ladies were over 35, and regularly kick my butt). None of my former child skating helps me when my competition is talented, regardless of age. So I don't think changing the age levels necessarily benefits any more people than it already does.

I get to skate a lot compared to most adults, have luckily managed to steadily improve over the years, and sure I get annoyed when I compete against former child skaters (hello, Staphanie Cooke, Masters Champion!) But you'll never hear me complain about her or any other skater. It just makes me work harder to get the technical content I need to beat them. (Stephanie's quite sweet, by the way!)

And testing isn't a cakewalk at the higher levels either...if I take the Junior MIF test this sumer, they want me to look like the other 13-year olds taking it with me. i could complain and whine, but why? Just work harder.

My point is: regardless of your age, level, past skating experience, whatever...you are going to encounter bumps in the road during your skating career. Whether you're 12 years old at Regionals, or 65 at Adult Nationals, there are going to be skaters older and younger than you who are better, and older and younger who are worse. You're going to have tests that are hard to pass, and certain elements that drive you crazy. It's all about the process.

As for Adult levels, obviously there are bugs to work out, but for the vast majority the levels work. Some deliberate sandbagging may occur, and yes, there are adult skaters who are nasty and obnoxious, but in my seven years of competing at Adult Nationals, I've encountered extremely few of those. It always makes me wonder why certain posters seem to only find the bad things at ANs and don't focus on the good things, like skating your best and enjoying the cameraderie of adult skating. I think ANs is a wonderful experience overall, even when the competition has it's bugs (like practice ice this year). And for those who failed to find anything positive about it, that's quite a loss for you.

To all of you out there ever wrongly accused of sandbagging, or who've ever experienced nastiness from another adult at a competition, ignore them, skate your a$$ off, and enjoy.

Rant over.

kisscid

04-22-2004, 06:27 PM

Very nicely put manleywoman!!
Cid

daisies

04-22-2004, 07:06 PM

To all of you out there ever wrongly accused of sandbagging, or who've ever experienced nastiness from another adult at a competition, ignore them, skate your a$$ off, and enjoy.

Amen to that, sista! :)

SK8RX

04-22-2004, 10:02 PM

Well, this was my first Nationals, and all I can say is that I am extremely glad I made the trip. I was impressed with the level of skating from top to bottom. It was really inspiring. I will say that competing in this event was much more of an emotional roller coaster than I anticipated.

Going into it, I really had no idea what to expect, and I made an effort to train so that I could give a performance that my coaches and I would be proud of, and not worry too much about what others in my flight were doing. It's funny, I was in the final warmup group with the guy who did the double toe, and I wasn't even aware of it, until people told me about it, after the event concluded. Talk about tunnel vision! :lol: And while, I had a nice warmup, unfortunately my skate got away from me, and I did not perform to the level I had trained. That is what upset me. If Ross can do double toes, good for him, all I can control is what I do (kinda :lol: )

All in all, I was struck by the level of good sportsmanship throughout the event, and it really was a nice break from the "real world". My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.

I plan on being in KC next year, and to hopefully perform to the best of my abilities. That is the goal I am shooting for. Medals are fantastic, but my desire is to perform to my potential. The fact is that the process of pushing oneself, to go that extra step past where you felt you could go, is awesome. I know that first hand. The week before Nationals I had a back injury, and I wasn't sure I was even going to be able to complete until just before my event. So even though I didn't perform as well as I might have hoped, I still feel a sense of accomplishment. And I am sure there are many of us who overcame obstacles and competed. That's why I feel Adult Nationals is so special - there is a place for everyone and anyone. I'm personally proud of myself and every other skater who stepped out on the ice, to do something they love and worked at. No one is a loser here. We are all winners.

My best wishes to all of you. Hope to see you in KC!

flo

04-23-2004, 09:25 AM

Speaking of Ross - anyone have his e-mail address? Phone number?
Sk8rx - congrats on your first nationals! Welcome to the group.

lskater

04-23-2004, 12:03 PM

Let me begin by saying that I don't agree that Bronze is for beginners. Pre-Bronze is for beginners. If you can pass the Bronze FS and moves test, you are not a beginner.

I think in the context of the discussion though, I assumed that the person who said this was talking about competing at Adult Nationals where there is no Pre-Bronze event. Because of that, I think Bronze is considered (at least for Nationals) the "Beginners" event for those who want to skate at nationals. Although it might be a good idea to add Pre-Bronze freestyle to the competition. Maybe that would help things....

I want you guys to know I understand your takes on the competing thing, but there are a lot of us out there who are competitive and it is important for us to be competing at a "level playing field". I love skating for both the sheer joy of skating and for the ability to compete in it. But I want to be able to compete at a level playing field...and as I've said above..that's the challenge...

I know I'm not alone in how I feel....my synchro team came in 6th at nationals and EVERY ONE of the team members was disappointed. These women enjoy skating but they also want to feel like they're being competitive and this year, we weren't (We had gotten the bronze in 2002 and 2001). Not one of them said "Well, at least we got to skate and we're so happy for that!". There was definitely a feeling of overall frusteration and disappointment. What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of competitive people out there and you can't just discount their feelings and wishes for the "ideal" competitive situation. I think it exists...it's just going to take a little work to get there. But those of us who are competitive aren't telling you that you have the wrong attitude...why are you telling us that we do? Are you sure that being competitive and wanting the level-playing field is so bad and represents a "poor-sport" attitude? Because we want to compete fairly means that we don't love skating? Or that we're skating for the wrong reason? Let me say too that when I get beat by these people, I'm not rude about it at all. Some of them are my friends and I congratulate them. Even the lady who I competed against locally: (who was a child skater for many years) I gave her a hug and congrats. And I enjoyed the competition!

On the other list I'm on (Adultedge - Yahoo) there's people that feel the same as I do and are concerned about "the focus of
Adult Skating being shifted ever so subtlely to elite skaters who
aged up". Same concern although the person that brought it up was talking about the Master's level.

I was proposing that this frusteration is being felt by enough adult skaters, that MAYBE this was why numbers have been dropping at Nationals. However, if I'm wrong and the numbers for Nationals are only just shifting because of the Adult Moves being initiated...then I could be TOTALLY wrong about how people view skating competitively. And maybe I'm in the minority...if so, well, I won't be competing for a while anyway because of the baby, but I can assure you that when I do start up again, my feelings about competing on a "level-playing" field will not have changed. That doesn't mean that I don't love skating....

Either way, I guess time will tell. It'll be interesting to see if Adult Nationals stays "status quo" or if there will be a shift caused by either Adult Moves or child-skaters (and again, I mean those that skated for many years as a child and still have an edge on those Adults that started as adults) coming back to the competitive field. And maybe in the whole scheme of things, it wouldn't be a bad thing if Adult Nationals got more competitive because of it...but I think it will gradually change the definition of Adult Skating.

morgan

04-23-2004, 01:45 PM

I'm going put in my 2 cents here. I am a Bronze III who went to AN as a spectator to watch the events and watch many of my friends compete. I chose not to compete because local competitions have provided me with enough insight to know what is competitive and I did not feel competitive. It's not a question of wanting to win--it's a question of feeling that you are basically on par with your group. As someone said, Bronze has become Silver without an axel, and that's basically true. Most bronze level competitive skaters have 2 lutz's --one in combination, generally lutz-loop and single lutz (by the way, this is the same combination you see in Silver and Gold). Many do loop-loop. They also have camel-sit-scratch. And, most of them have speed. Bronze I was very impressive at Lake Placid this year, there was a lot of speed in that group. I watched Bronze I with some friends, including a coach, and to our eyes, many of them appeared to be Silver level skaters in terms of ice flow. I'm sure there are alot of reasons for not testing up, like not being able to do an element in the next level free test or not being able to do moves but the overall quality of the skating has improved tremendously over the years.

I have to agree with the poster that said that the truth is, you may want to wait until you are a great bronze before going out there. That's a question of personal choice, of course, but it's the reason I for one did not compete. Yes, it's true, that whoever goes out there is a winner and deserves kudos, but it doesn't take much to recognize that Bronze is no longer a beginning level at major competitions and some may view that fact as discouraging.

Careygram

04-23-2004, 03:33 PM

After reading a bit more, I kind of took what we were discussing and applied it to the competitive life of a kid. Do the senior ladies who aren't elite and don't have triple lutzes/flips back out of competition because they don't feel like they're competitive against the top ladies? I wouldn't. Additionally, after having skated for quite a few years and progressing nicely, I've noticed that like the kids, adults progress at different rates based on innate ability. Some of the kids I've skated with are gone and in college and they never did get an axel or a double. Some got very good very fast and continued on competitively.

I guess what I'm saying is that there probably won't ever be a level playing field because you can't change the fact that adults just have different levels of ability to learn to skate overall. I've seen great jumpers who have trouble with basic skills, people who can spin like tops but can't jump or stroke and so on.

Again, it's adult skating. We're not going to SOI. We're not getting paid. There aren't any olympics for us. Heck they didn't even televise adult nationals.

Even the kids don't have level playing fields and to do so would be extremely complicated (DC DEN gave a funny example). Tests are basic tests of groups of skills and many of the tests don't even required the jumps being done in competition for the same level.

Competitive or not, adults and kids both face these facts of life so again, I generally avoid competition and gauge my success on how I think I'm doing. I'm really not trying to bash so let me apologize up front if anyone feels I'm dissing them.

:)

kar5162

04-23-2004, 04:31 PM

(Besides, if you wanted to see what I thought was questionable behavior, you should have seen the Silver-level guy who did a double toe loop in his 6 minute warmup, even though you are only allowed to do up to Axel in Silver... but I digress...)

Why? Has he passed Gold, or higher moves months before and had time to prepare and test a Gold test program? If so, did he have a ton of possibilities for test sessions and does he have a consistent axel?

I really dislike most of the discussion about sandbagging. Although it's certainly justifiable to say that there are people who are doing it, there are many other instances where someone is competing at the appropriate level, despite what it may initially seem...like Julie above. Just as having passed significantly higher moves doesn't mean that you should necessarily skate at a higher freestyle level, being able to do higher level jumps and spins doesn't mean you should necessarily skate at a higher freestyle level.

In fact, I would say that all three male skaters I skate with regularly can perform (well) elements above their competition category. However, two are just beginning to test up, and there's only so fast you can prepare for moves and freestyle tests, the other is held back by moves, but working hard. I also know a fair number of adults who compete Silver who have passed Juvenile or Intermediate moves, and a few who can do the occasional double, but have other things holding them back from testing Gold.

Maybe there are people who really shouldn't skate in a level, but how can we, and why should we, after watching them for a few minutes on practice or warm-up ice, judge them so harshly?

Kim

dani

04-23-2004, 05:25 PM

Heck they didn't even televise adult nationals.

Hey - I was televised!! I was on Channel 22 in Lake Placid! ;-)

Hugs!
Danielle

gmskate

04-23-2004, 05:49 PM

Maybe there are people who really shouldn't skate in a level, but how can we, and why should we, after watching them for a few minutes on practice or warm-up ice, judge them so harshly?

Kim

I certainly don't judge skaters harshly for being able to do elements that are above their test level. Obviously being able to do an element in practice and competing the same element in competition during a 1.5 to 3 minute program are two completely different things. It could take several months/years to master an element before the skater feels comfortable enough to include it in a program. What troubles me about the skater that performed a double toe loop during warm-up for silver competition is that the only reason I can see for that behavior was to intimidate the other competitors.....I am surprised that the coach allowed this.

The problem with sandbagging is a very difficult one and perhaps the USFSA needs to re-evaluate what elements are to be included in the test/competition programs and MITF to better identify what makes an adult skater pre-bronze, bronze, etc. As well, I would hope that the coaches are well in tune with their skaters’ abilities and advise them properly as to when/if they should proceed to the next level.

dcden

04-23-2004, 05:51 PM

kar5162, I guess I should distinguish between the two different issues of when do you test up and what do you do on your 6 minute warmup for competition. Two very different things.

On the first issue, I'm not trying to second guess anyone because, as has been pointed out earlier, everyone's situation is different, and sometimes your assumptions about a skater's ability are wrong. Sometimes a skater may have high level jumps but not the corresponding moves tests to move up in level. Or they may have beautiful edging, speed & stroking but can't do one of the required jumps or spins to test up. Or they may have all the elements for the next level up, but ran out of time to test before the competition deadline. Every situation is different, and as Careygram pointed out adults starting at the same level may progress at different rates due to their respective innate abilities. You have to give people the benefit of the doubt because you don't know what they've been doing to try to test up to the next level.

On the second issue, I've never seen someone throw an illegal move in the 6 minute warmup for an adult competition, and for Silver FS level, double jumps are not permitted. There was no need to perform that move, & he would not have gotten credit for it if he'd actually performed it in his run-through. But more than anything else, it was like when Surya Bonaly threw her backflip in the 1992 Olympic practices... its only purpose is to play mind games and I'm not a big fan of that. My point was not that he should have tested up because who knows what his situation is.

But SK8RX brings up a good point in that you should remain focused on yourself during a 6 minute warmup anyway. Kudos to him for being able to do so.

Beccapoo2003

04-23-2004, 08:45 PM

[As someone said, Bronze has become Silver without an axel, and that's basically true.].

I believe the first place in Silver 2 did not have an Axel. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Luv to all,
Becca from Alabama

SkateGuard

04-23-2004, 09:50 PM

So that's my story! It's kinda funny reading about myself in this thread. BTW, my name is Julie. If you still feel the need to talk about me, you can use my name instead of "the woman in question" or "the pre-gold dancer doing novice moves". :lol:

I did meet many many great Bronze Ladies, including a few who came up to me to compliment my skating and congratulate me! I did not receive any negative comments, or anyone who said I should be skating Silver (I would have taken that as a compliment!! :P )

Hi Julie!

I'm sorry I never got a chance to meet you at AN's...I always make it a priority to congratulate all of the qualifiers from my round.

Yes, I knew your story from a friend who skates with you...I didn't use your name 'cause I know about the lack of privacy on the 'net. It's your decision, not mine. I knew you weren't a sandbagger and that you had only done freestyle for a few months. I used you as an example of a situation in the rules I find detrimental of the adult skating movement since it is shutting out new adult-start skaters.

And for those who weren't there, Julie was hardly the only skater in that group that would have been competitive in Silver...there was even a girl in the other group who we all knew was landing an axel (or was very close) because of the way she did her waltz-loop combo.

First, since I started it all, let me say how impressed I was of you. Yes, please take my comments as complements....I have no ill will toward you or your decision to skate bronze. (When I saw the DVD, I knew it was those pesky spins....) It's a shame, 'cause you probably would have made final round, if not medalled, in the silver event! (And who wants to medal in bronze if you can in silver...or gold!!!)

My coach and I are frustrated at the rules, not you, not the judges, and not the overall placements of the event. You see, she has taken bronze skaters to 7 US AN's, and has seen quite a jump of the ability level of bronzes. She had planned to bring three other bronzes to KC. Now she's telling them they have to wait two years until they are skating at a level where they will feel comforable and enjoy their skating experience. And when coaches and skaters are deciding not to compete because they don't feel competitive, we WILL lose the number of starts.

And for those of you who think my coach is a poor sport, you have no idea. She's one of the people who has supported adult skating from the beginning, and has watched it grow and devlop in the sport. She spent her AN's talking to lots of old friends, as well as running around, managing 4 skaters at 3 different levels, then helping skaters who didn't have coaches with them, even one who was competing against one of her skaters. And she supports every skater who is at AN's--regardless of ability or if they beat her skaters. I have nothing but the highest respect for her, and she's like a mom to me. It's unfortunate that Julie got mixed into this, but please blame me, not my coach. My coach is a lot of things...poor sport is just not one of them. (BTW, she whispered that comment to me under her breath so nobody else could hear it but me. I'm the chump that decided to repeat it.)

Which brings me to my point (which has been so misunderstood that I'm shaking in frustration):

The goal of Adult Nationals is participation, not competition. We all have issues that cause us to skate at a particular level, but if we allow the ability of Bronze I to increase any more, the new blood (skaters like Julie and me and lots others who started as adults and are beginners) will be unable to participlate (or will be too discouraged to go to another AN's) and start the AN addiction. We are losing our next generation. What will happen when the original adult-start group starts to retire? Will we be able to fill the ranks with younger adult-start skaters, or will it be composed of skaters who started as kids? Or will AN's just be Silver, Gold, and Masters?

And Julie, the USFS refuses to put in a Pre-Bronze event at AN; they think it will make AN's unmanageable. How are we going to get more people hooked on AN's if they are scared to skate bronze and they can't skate pre-bronze?

It's not about sandbagging, winning, or losing. I don't get upset about that stuff. Those that know me will say that I'm the only one that looks for the "true story" behind why someone is at a certain level before waving the sandbagging flag--and I have NEVER called someone a sandbagger, nor will I start now. (And those who though I was calling Julie a sandbagger really misunderstood my comment. I'll admit, I was as snippy as Al Gore, but I have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings, whether intentionally or unintentially.)

AN is about enjoying yourself and feeling proud about what you have accomplished on all those sunrise sessions back home. The problem is that I wanted to crawl into a hole after the morning warmup--I knew I didn't belong there. And I certainly didn't feel that miserable last year, when I was a human zamboni on the warmup and fell on the first jump in a much easier program.

Once again, my frustration is with the RULES, not the skaters, not the judges, and not the results. When we have decreased from 75 Bronze I's in Lake Placid in 2000 to 28 in 2004, I think we've got a problem. Yes, there are a lot of factors, but when we are trying to find a place for the YA's, shouldn't we be making sure that we have plenty of starts in the Bronze I event?

Erin
(who is energized and determined to skate better next year. And no, I don't mean placement!)

Mrs Redboots

04-24-2004, 06:20 AM

Julie's story reminds me, in reverse, of a Gold lady who came to the Mountain Cup last year to compete in Gold freestyle - and pre-Bronze solo dance! Because, of course, she had only been learning dance for a couple of months, so was not qualified, at the time, for any higher class. She not only won the class - deservedly so - she put my husband, against whom she was competing, totally on his mettle. He loved skating against her, and trying to beat her (although he knew he had no chance, really - he took Bronze, though, much to his delight). In fact, I think he's disappointed at not taking her on again this year (he doesn't like the pre-Bronze solo dances that have been chosen, and isn't qualified for Bronze, which he'd do better, so he's not entered for Solo Dance!), although very much looking forward to seeing her, and hoping to get a dance with her if the opportunity arises!

So it can work both ways - if you see what can be done at your level, it inspires you to try just that much harder. For myself, my inspiration comes from a pre-Bronze couple who came to the first Mountain Cup (and, sadly, not since), when Robert wasn't yet dancing, so I only did solo dance. The did a Rhythm Blues that was to die for - they made it just so-o-o-o-o Blues-y and wonderful.... if only I could do one like that! Sadly, five years later, I don't think I can!

manleywoman

04-24-2004, 09:41 AM

And for those who weren't there, Julie was hardly the only skater in that group that would have been competitive in Silver...there was even a girl in the other group who we all knew was landing an axel (or was very close) because of the way she did her waltz-loop combo.

No, you DON'T know that based on a waltz-loop combo. She might just have a nice combo. It's very likely she may not have an axel. Don't make assumptions that she SEEMS like she's got more advanced skills unless you've actually seen her do them. This is where people can get wronlgy accused of sandbagging.

Now this next series of quotes I find interesting because you've completely contradicted yourself:

My coach and I are frustrated at the rules, not you, not the judges, and not the overall placements of the event. You see, she has taken bronze skaters to 7 US AN's, and has seen quite a jump of the ability level of bronzes. She had planned to bring three other bronzes to KC. Now she's telling them they have to wait two years until they are skating at a level where they will feel comforable and enjoy their skating experience. And when coaches and skaters are deciding not to compete because they don't feel competitive, we WILL lose the number of starts.

The goal of Adult Nationals is participation, not competition. We all have issues that cause us to skate at a particular level, [/U]

vAN is about enjoying yourself and feeling proud about what you have accomplished on all those sunrise sessions back home. The problem is that I wanted to crawl into a hole after the morning warmup--I knew I didn't belong there.

So...your coach is purposefully recommending that her students NOT participate in ANs, and not allowing them to make those decisions for themselves, and yet you and she agree that ANs is about participation, and enjoying your personal accomplishments?

Seems to me you and your fellow adults belong there just fine. If you don't care about the placements and want to be there to gain experience ande enjoy adult skating, crawl out of the hole (the "hole" by the way is self-imposed....I bet no casual observer would have told you you didn't belong) and all GO to ANs next year if you want too. I think your coach is wrong to disacourage you all from going. JMO.

Stormy

04-24-2004, 11:40 AM

Thank you, manleywoman. Extremely well put!!!!

SkateGuard

04-24-2004, 12:20 PM

Seems to me you and your fellow adults belong there just fine. If you don't care about the placements and want to be there to gain experience ande enjoy adult skating, crawl out of the hole (the "hole" by the way is self-imposed....I bet no casual observer would have told you you didn't belong) and all GO to ANs next year if you want too. I think your coach is wrong to disacourage you all from going. JMO.

No, the problem is preparing students who are 1) new to competition or 2) been away from skating since passing their Bronze free and not quite ready the increased level. The bulk of Bronzes are adult-start skaters, and many of them leave and come back because of job changes, getting married, having children, etc. And these are the situations about the skaters I am discussing. Yes, participation is paramount, but the first experience has to be positive.

My coach is big into making sure we are confident when we go out there. For example, she never puts any skater (no matter age or ability) out on a test session until we feel like we can pass. The skaters I mention need to know about the increased level of bronze so they can at least feel confident. And when none of them have a consistent lutz, how can they feel confident in an arena where everyone has a consistent lutz-loop combo? That is her concern...once they get over the confidence factor, they're ready; regardless of how they skate. (You'll meet her someday, trust me, and you'll understand then.) She's not discouraging them from competing, but she's waiting until they are ready. If they get ready next year, they'll be out there, but she really thinks it may take longer.

The thing is, when you're new to competition (or coming back when you are away), that it's hard to feel confident when everyone looks so much stronger. Yes, I got beaned, but I had an extremely tough off season where I got very sick and lost 25 lbs off my very skinny body; the fact that I'm healthy and out there is to be celebrated, and I have.

BTW my coach could care less about results; she is more concerned about us and our confidence. And my confidence was shot seeing the strength of skaters I was competing against. I said, "It's an honor just to skate with these people." And I think that's her concern...she's worried that these skaters will be overwhelmed and not want to go back. And AN's needs the repeat business.

I know you, and I do respect your opinion. I essentially dug myself in a hole on this board after a very frustrating experience. That's how I'm wrong, and I'm big enough to admit that. But it's hard to tell the entire story on a message board, and there's a lot of stuff in all of this.

But the problems I am having with the level of skating in Bronze I are legitimate. A high level dancer or moves skater should not be allowed to skate bronze, no matter how many times they fail the Silver free. Usually, a bronze can eek out a bracket or two...now I'm seeing choctaws, counters, rockers? At bronze? Technically, according to the rules, any eligible elite ice dancer can show up to AN's later in life and skate Bronze if they never passed their Juv freestyle.

Let's take an elite ice dancer who started to dance at an early age. I'll pick Jessica Joseph. She's almost 25, and let's just say (hypothetically) that she chose to compete in freestyle at AN's. She started dancing at 9, I believe, so let's say she never got around to passing her Intermediate free (and therefore not grandfathered to Masters). Where does she skate? Silver? A former junior world champ and Olympian is going to have extraordinary quality of edge, ice coverage, and other skills that the average silver just does not have.

Would that be fair to the other competitiors? It doesn't matter. Technically, the rules would allow that. A national champion, elite, internationally competitive ice dancer who never passed his/her juvenile free could technically compete as a Bronze when they hit 25. Unlikely, but possible with the current rule structure.

I never said that I was right and anyone else was wrong, I'm not big into crying sandbagging (if you think I was, you would be wrong...that was never my intent...see the paragraphs here for that!), and I don't intentionally attack people or demean them. If that was what you all understood, you would be misinformed, probably by me. :oops:

But since I've put myself in a position where I'm not being heard (and I truly apologize for those who I offended...I am usually rather timid in posting because I hate being attacked on these things...I would never intentionally hurt someone, and if I did, I am sorry.), I'll just go away for a long while. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Debbie S

04-24-2004, 01:19 PM

Let's take an elite ice dancer who started to dance at an early age. I'll pick Jessica Joseph. She's almost 25, and let's just say (hypothetically) that she chose to compete in freestyle at AN's. She started dancing at 9, I believe, so let's say she never got around to passing her Intermediate free (and therefore not grandfathered to Masters). Where does she skate? Silver? A former junior world champ and Olympian is going to have extraordinary quality of edge, ice coverage, and other skills that the average silver just does not have.

Would that be fair to the other competitiors? It doesn't matter. Technically, the rules would allow that. A national champion, elite, internationally competitive ice dancer who never passed his/her juvenile free could technically compete as a Bronze when they hit 25. Unlikely, but possible with the current rule structure.

....But since I've put myself in a position where I'm not being heard (and I truly apologize for those who I offended...I am usually rather timid in posting because I hate being attacked on these things...I would never intentionally hurt someone, and if I did, I am sorry.), I'll just go away for a long while. :oops: :oops: :oops:

A couple things come to mind when I read this post.

1. Jessica Joseph, or Naomi Lang, or any other, may be able to do excellent connecting steps, but may not be able to land a lutz-loop, or even a toe loop, or do a good camel-sit or back spin. You can't say that every Bronze skater out there would automatically lose to someone like that. I saw some excellent Bronze skaters at the Wash D.C New Year's comp (and I suspected that the winner, who recently medaled at ANs, may have skated as a child or teenager) and I looked at their skills as something to aspire to for myself, not as skills that didn't belong in an adult competition.

At Wilmington FSC's fall comp last November, I saw some excellent adults in the spin comp (I was just an observer for that one), one of whom looked better then some senior-level eligible skaters I've seen, who won Bronze a few years ago at ANs, and this year didn't even qualify for the finals in her Silver event (perhaps she was injured or something?). My point is that everyone brings different skills to the table, but just because someone excels in one area doesn't mean they'll excel overall (not every Bronze skater you saw has the ability right now to be in Silver - I'm sure plenty are held back by the moves test, and some may not have the jumps (axel) or spins (camel-sit or other combo) to pass the FS test). And if a skater is very strong in certain areas, other skaters can use that as a goal for themselves.

2. Top elite dancers most likely aren't interested in competing in Adult FS competitions. They'd most likely rather coach or choreograph than throw themselves back into the competitive arena.

3. I don't think anyone is attacking you. We're merely trying to point out issues you haven't considered, and suggest an alternate way of looking at a situation.

As someone (was it flo?) wrote on this board not too long ago, competing as an adult is about enjoying yourself and the opportunity to challenge yourself and set your own goals. The variety of backgrounds among adult skaters is proof that you shouldn't compare yourself to others. Obviously, a lot of us do - it's our competitive nature - but it's best to take everything with a grain of salt.

Spreadeagle

04-24-2004, 03:52 PM

Erin, I hope you'll come back to the discussion! It will be boring without you. ;) I hope you know that people (at least me, anyway, and most others I would think) are not attacking you as a person, but merely attacking your arguments. That's why this discussion has been so interesting.

Your last couple of posts have helped me to understand a bit more where you are coming from. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I do have a better understanding. From what I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), your view of AN's, and adult competitions in general, is that everyone from beginners up should feel that they have a place and that they feel competitive, that they won't get beaten embarrassingly, and neither will they feel that they are heads and shoulders above the other competitors at their level.

However, I happen to disagree with your view of what AN's is, and your level playing-field arguments for several reasons:

1) You have stated that "the goal of AN is participation, not competition". However, the following statement you made is somewhat contradictory to your view of AN:
A high level dancer or moves skater should not be allowed to skate bronze, no matter how many times they fail the Silver free.
If the goal of ANs is truly participation, it should be participation for all skaters, not just beginners or those who are in the middle of their freestyle division and have worked only on freestyle. If you really are concerned with the decreasing number of starts, you'll welcome all skaters. What if there is an ice dancer reading the board now who is thinking of starting to compete in freestyle? She's not going to feel very encouraged to go to AN.

2) IMO, national competitions (and this is especially true of skating competitions at the national level) are not for beginners. To me, a national-level competition should not come easily. It should be something that you have to really work hard for, and you should be well past the beginning levels of your sport before you could even dream of going to nationals. This is why I don't think that pre-Bronze should ever be part of Adult Nationals. Also, I agree with Julie--Bronze is not for beginners.

3) In the skating world, to be at the top of your particular level, even to be competitive at your level, you need to be doing the most difficult program that you can do and still be within the rules. Using a standard track level as an example (I know, we are adults, not kids, but this still applies): for the pre-Juvenile FS test the most difficult jump that is required is a single lutz. However, in competition at the pre-Juv level, you are allowed to do up to 4 different double jumps. I have very little doubt that the ones who are winning in pre-juv are definitely doing doubles. Yes, according to the rules you can compete in pre-juv even if the hardest jump you can do is a lutz, but I don't think there is anyone who is expecting to win with only a lutz. So applying this to the adults, since in Bronze you are allowed to do any single jump except for an axel, I would expect those who are medalling in Bronze to have lutzes and lutz combos, even though for the Bronze test the hardest jump required is a salchow (or toe loop, depending on your view of which is harder). In Silver, since an axel is allowed, I wouldn't expect to be competitive without an axel and/or axel combo. There can be exceptions--maybe if you don't have an axel and others fall on their axels, you could win. But you can't count on this.

4) I think it's pretty near impossible to level the playing field. If anyone can name an individual sport (not a team sport--having more than one person competing as a team makes it easier to be level) in which the playing field is completely level, please share it. I can't think of any. There's always going to be someone out there who does something better than you, and you're always going to be able to do something better than someone else. Someone who skates and also dances (not ice-dancing, just regular) or is a gymnast may have an advantage in the areas of flexibility or body line or grace. Someone who is a long-distance runner may have more endurance to make it through longer programs. Someone who lifts weights might be able to jump higher. There are also inherited qualities that could give you an advantage. Perhaps you aren't fearful, so you learn to jump faster because you aren't afraid. Maybe you love performing, so you have better presentation on the ice compared to someone who is timid. There's just no way to control for all these factors. And honestly I don't think it would be as much fun if everyone out there was doing the exact same things in the same way. It certainly would make it harder on the judges! You can't have a 16-way tie for 1st place!

5) I agree with Debbie S that elite skaters are probably not too interested in competing at ANs. Look at the pair team of Olympians that skated at the exhibition. They could have skated that program in the pairs competition, but I bet they have had their fill of competing. However, I don't think that people who competed as kids should be turned away, no matter what level they competed at. Perhaps as kids many of their competitive experinces were negative or cut-throat, and now they see AN as a chance to actually have some fun while competing. That should definitely be allowed. Plus, wasn't it so much fun to watch the Championship Masters mens and ladies events! :lol:

I agree with what you said about not focusing on results and trying to just go out there and have fun. I also agree that you need to have a certain level of confidence to go out and compete. I would also add to that a realistic view of the competition. I'm glad that you and your coach are telling the other Bronze skaters you know what it was like in Bronze this year. That will help them know what to work on, as well as help them make the decision whether or not to attend. I hope they will attend even if they know they aren't competitive enough to win or make it to final round. I have learned over the past year that the more competitions I do, the more confident I get and this shows in my skating.

OK, got a little out of control with the long post again! :oops:

daisies

04-24-2004, 04:19 PM

Manleywoman, DebbieS and Spreadeagle all said what I wanted to say (but much more eloquently!), but I do want to say this regarding one of Erin's posts:

if we allow the ability of Bronze I to increase any more, the new blood (skaters like Julie and me and lots others who started as adults and are beginners) will be unable to participlate (or will be too discouraged to go to another AN's) and start the AN addiction.

When I was in Juvenile in 1982 (!), the highest jump anyone was doing was double loop. Now it's double axel. Also, in 1982, Senior Ladies weren't doing triple-triple combos, and Senior Men weren't performing quads. Now they are.

You don't want the "ability" of Bronze to increase, but it HAS to. That is the nature of this sport. At Bronze, at Juvenile, at Senior. I don't believe participation will wane because of it. Rather, it will attract a new breed of adult skater who isn't afraid of the high level of competition, but instead embraces it to make him- or herself a better skater.

manleywoman

04-25-2004, 01:34 PM

Erin...don't go away!!! We're just trying to understand where you're coming from!

My coach is big into making sure we are confident when we go out there. ...She's not discouraging them from competing, but she's waiting until they are ready. If they get ready next year, they'll be out there, but she really thinks it may take longer.

...And I think that's her concern...she's worried that these skaters will be overwhelmed and not want to go back. And AN's needs the repeat business.

Okay, this is different from what I was picking up from your earlier posts. Confidence is a big issue, but I still beleive you can NOT have the skills and still have all the confidence in the world and make a great debut at ANs.

Perfect example of this: Carl who came in dead last at ANs in Masters Men, and who had the crowd in his hands! :bow: There was no way that guy was getting a medal, and his jumping skills were barely comperable to the rest of the field, but boy did he skate nicely and have all of us on our feet at the end!

Using myself as an example, depending on the event, I don't have the skills to compete against a lot of my peers in my level. My hardest jump is 2loop, and a lot of my peers have through 2lutz. But I have lots of confidence and balls when I get out on the ice, and for those 3 minutes the ice is MINE, and I make the most of it! Plus I have other skills that they may not have: good speed, good layback...so I play those up. So I think that if anybody at ANY level is lacking in some required skills that they need to compete well, that if they play up the strengths that they DO have and go out there with a smile on their face, they will look like they belong.

That's why I think your group should all go to ANs if you want to go. I understand about the confidence issue, but as daisies said, the competition does get harder every year, so I'd hate for you to keep deciding against going because you never feel ready.

I have to agree with spreadeagle that I disagree with some of your arguements about when a person should feel comfortable about when to start competing. To me I think everybody should feel as if they belong at ANs regardless of their skills, because adult skating is about inclusion and we should all feel welcome. It's not the Olympics, and 99% of the adults there are happy to meet you and support you regardless of where you place or what the skills are.

Not to mention, "the ice is slippery"...so someone on that first practice session you went to who was intimidating to you because they looked so strong, could crumble to pieces when she's in front of a judge. I've seen it happen at ALL levels. You can't ever compare yourself with what's going on on the practice session, because if they land the lutz in the practice, there is NO guarantee that it's happening when the music starts. That's where confidence comes into play. You do for yourself the best program you can put out there, and don't worry about what the other competitors are doing.

So don't feel as if we're attacking, please! I just want everyone to feel a prt of adult skating , and to skate and enjoy.

LWalsh

04-26-2004, 09:00 AM

I also encourage you go to Adult Nationals.

Silver I this year was another example of "anything can happen". Another skater and I had no axels planned in our programs. We both made it to the final round and she even medaled. I knew going into AN that without the axel I had a very slim chance of placing in the top half. Even though I worked my butt off to get ready, I never expected to make the final round. What happened during the qualifying round was almost nobody landed their axels (this changed in the final round however) and I skated the best I've ever skated my program. The judges rewarded skating and not just jumps.

I went for the experience and ended up with a pleasant suprise. You never know what can happen. You skate your best for yourself, and then it's up to the judges.

I agree with what manleywoman said, confidence is everything. Even if your program isn't the most technicaly difficult, confidence will carry you a long way. Her example of Carl (who is from my club) is perfect. He went out an owned the 1980 rink for 3 minutes and got a standing ovation. He came home and said that AN was the best experience of his life. That's what it's all about, not the medals.

Lara

Kristin

04-26-2004, 02:00 PM

Hi all,

I'm typically a lurker, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

I can understand some of Erin's frustration at her Bronze 1 group...afterall, if you look at Interp events, you have to skate Masters if you pass any of your Silver dances, regardless of freestyle level. Yes, I know, I know, it's INTERP and it is different than freestyle. But I think you guys know what I mean. Erin didn't mention this in any of her posts (or at least not that I saw) and I thought it was worth bringing up so you can see better where she is coming from.

I would also like to tell you that Erin really is a very nice person (and a good friend of mine) so hopefully no one took offense to her posts. She has had a difficult year in regards to stomach health (body producting WAY too much stomach acid), losing a lot of weight off her already skinny frame since she couldn't eat hardly anything without getting seriously ill (and I have been very worried about her all this year)! It was a stress-related illness which still hasn't been properly diagnosed, and hasn't completely gone away. It is very frustrating when you want to skate, but you are too weak. She is getting much better, but again, nutritional healing is a slow process. And every time she sits down to eat something, she has to know everything that is in it so it won't cause an adverse reaction. NOT fun. I don't tell you this to make you feel sorry for her, but to help understand her better. And from what I am getting on these posts, understanding is what we all want, eh? :)

And JulieN, you gave a lovely performance on the ice. You should be proud of what you did. And BTW, I love FM/Dance just as much as you do. I never had an easy time with freestyle stuff either. Everything I learn is a fight to the end!

::Cheers Y'all!::
Kristin the Bronze Dance & Pre Juv FM skater that Erin previously mentioned in one of her posts