Questions for dancers turned skaters

[dbny]

I know that several of you danced before you skated. I have started a few dancers and know a few others who skate and it is quite clear that they have a big advantage over those with no dance training. I've been watching a lot of ballet on CAS lately, and it's made me wonder about a few things:


Do dancers have to "spin" in both directions, or do they just learn one like skaters?
Is balancing more difficult in pointe shoes or skates?
What is the most difficult aspect of skating for you?
How do you think dance has helped your skating?
Do you think dance has been a problem for your skating, if so, how?


Thank you.

[nerd_on_ice]

Or maybe "Dancer (of a sort) turned skater (of an even more questionable sort)"

I took ballet and jazz from age 8 through high school, and on and off through college. Here's how I'd answer your questions, dbny:
* Dancers have to spin--and do everything else--both ways, though as in skating, everyone has a good and a bad side.
* Pointe shoes vs. skates: I would say skates are more difficult because in pointe shoes, you are not always on pointe, so you get breaks from having to hold that balance. Others' mileage may vary--I only did pointe for a couple of years and never got extremely good at it.
* For me, the most difficult aspect of skating is dealing with fear--but I think I would have said the same thing about dance. :cry:
* Dance has helped my skating by teaching me body awareness, a sense of line, and the ability to learn movements by watching someone else do them.
* The only problem I've found so far in moving from dance to skating is that in skating, you are supposed to open your hip in certain movements (spiral, for example). In ballet, the opposite is true, so I have to break a muscle memory that became ingrained. I suspect that trying NOT to "spot" when spinning may be problematic too.

p.s. Hello to everybody! :) Long time lurker breaking silence because this question/topic always interests me.

[TashaKat]

Do dancers have to "spin" in both directions, or do they just learn one like skaters? In all forms of dance you spin, jump, everything in both directions. I firmly believe that we should be taught the same way in skating right from the beginning as I know how imbalanced my body became once I was skating more than I was dancing. I'm convinced that this would help to prevent some of the injuries. I know that a lot of people think that it's a waste of time because a lot of the focus (certainly in Free) is to get bigger, multi rotational jumps. If it was taught from day one then the imbalance would be less and it would be more natural to spin and jump in both directions anyway.
Is balancing more difficult in pointe shoes or skates? For me it's definitely more difficult in skates! Pointe shoes are more painful (no matter what they tell you, gel pads DO help BUT it still hurts .... mind you, when I was training we weren't allowed ANYTHING in the pointe shoes, we had to dance until our toes bled and then we slapped on SURGICAL SPIRITS to harden the skin. Nice .......)
What is the most difficult aspect of skating for you? *Thinking* that I can do things better than I actually can ....... you're used to using your body in dance so when you find that on the ice your body won't perform then THAT is incredibly frustrating
How do you think dance has helped your skating? Flexibility, 'muscle memory', learning steps/programs, body awareness, musicality (mind you, I'm also a musician!) .... loads of stuff :D
Do you think dance has been a problem for your skating, if so, how? The one thing that springs to mind is mohawks! I didn't realise that I had a problem till I started Ice Dance ..... my coach couldn't understand why we weren't 'together' on the mohawks as I *appeared* to be doing them well .... analysis showed that I was just turning out from my hips to turn from backwards to forwards instead of using my body :D Apart from that there are little things but nothing much that I can think of!

[Elsy2]

Can I add a question here too? Daughter has skated for several years, and does have some nasty bunions, particularly on one foot.

She has taken up ballet recently and is asking me if she can do pointe. Do you think this will be even more damaging to her feet? I forsee surgery on one of her feet in her future already.

As for my dancing friends who skate....they do have wonderful posture!

[SkateGuard]

She has taken up ballet recently and is asking me if she can do pointe. Do you think this will be even more damaging to her feet? I forsee surgery on one of her feet in her future already.


It depends on the ballet studio. I have a friend whose feet are very messed up (they are half a size different) because she was put on pointe too early and without proper training. She has a picture of her on point at 11, and she has no arch in her feet...very bad technique, according to her. Also, she feels that if the instructor had waited until she was a bit older (read=hit puberty), she wouldn't have been putting so much stress on her still growing feet.

If you have a good instructor, there should be a pre-pointe program for the younger girls to strengthen their feet in preparation for pointe shoes. Another thing...if your daughter has just recently taken up ballet, it may be a good idea to hold off on the pointe until her technique is stronger. It's like putting a basic skater in custom boots appropriate for axels and double jumps...a bad idea no matter the age and maturity.

As for the skating vs. dancing....I took dance on and off from 3 until high school. I think you can tell by my carriage and arms on the ice, but it was very hard for me to not turn my feet out! Go figure.

Erin

[twokidsskatemom]

so, do you think its good training or bad to add that while skating?My almost 5yo was going to add some ballet training this summer at least.
thanks :)

[TashaKat]

Hi again, before we went on pointe we used 'demi-pointe' or 'soft block' shoes to get us used to the feeling of pointe shoes and to help us work our feet in preparation. Another thing was that we HAD to wear full, leather soled shoes to get an arch rather than the 'trend' today which is to use fabric, split soles which gives you a better appearance but doesn't work your foot as well!

I can't see any problems with starting dance training alongside skating but it may be wise to speak to your coach to see if they can recommend a ballet teacher who is used to dealing with figure skaters so that the classes can be targeted appropriately.

[Elsy2]

Thank you all for your responses. Luckily this dance instructor used to be a figure skater...which I think is a plus.

"Yuffie" is now 16 8O so it's good to hear that this is less of a problem after puberty. I'll talk with the instructor and tell her my concerns and also keep an eye on her feet if she starts this.

[quarkiki2]

Do dancers have to "spin" in both directions, or do they just learn one like skaters? As answered beautifully by others, yes, yes, yes.

Is balancing more difficult in pointe shoes or skates? I think it's harder in skates. En pointe, you gain strength by pushing through your toes into the floor. On a skate, pushing makes you move and pushing hard makes you move FAST.

What is the most difficult aspect of skating for you? Not turning my feet out for crossovers. Really. And fear of speed.

How do you think dance has helped your skating? Flexibility, body awareness, musicality. My instructors envy my grace and say that were they not watching my feet, you'd think I was the best skater on the ice. But my feet really have to do stuff right, LOL! Once I "get" something, I pretty much "get" it and very quickly put it into my muscle memory -- unfortunately, it takes a while to "get" most stuff.

Do you think dance has been a problem for your skating, if so, how? Like Tasha, I find it somewhat frustrating that I can't transfer more skills. I feel like I should be a much better skater by now than I am. It is a very hard transition for me to take something I can do very well on the floor and move it to the ice -- I sometimes feel like I can't "find" the ice the way I can "find" the floor. I have a beautiful, high, airy waltz jump on the floor and a lousy three-turn with a step on the ice. I can do a Sasha Cohen spiral (arabesque penchee) on the floor, but it's only slightly above hip height on the ice.

[twokidsskatemom]

We told her coach and she said it was a good idea. :) wish we lived somewhere they had some off ice training but we dont :frus:

[Lmarletto]

I can't see any problems with starting dance training alongside skating but it may be wise to speak to your coach to see if they can recommend a ballet teacher who is used to dealing with figure skaters so that the classes can be targeted appropriately.

In what ways is "dance for skaters" better for skaters than standard dance training? My daughter's rink offers a mixed age "ballet for skaters", but I hadn't considered it because I thought a "real" dance experience (recitals, the Nutcracker and all that) would be fun for her. I also think it's just as likely she'll end up a serious dancer (or a serious soccer player :) ) as a serious skater. Her current class at a dance school is all 5yos and designed specifically for that age group, with an eye toward providing the foundation for serious training later. Is there some age or skating level at which conventional dance training would become a liability?

[Elsy2]

We felt that "dance class" for our skaters specifically focused on what they needed. Not a strong focus on technically dance, but on expression that could be incorporated in skating programs. When your goals are primarily skating, there is really not much time for anything else, and you fit in the off ice dance, jump, pilates, strength training that is an asset to skating.

I was always under the impression that standard dance training could conflict with skating technically. Anyone want to comment on this?

All I know as a skate parent is that skating is the priority. Really no time to spare to give any other discipline that much emphasis. I guess I'm trying to say that if skating is the primary sport, you will probably have to put your emphasis there, and not think you can excell in skating and dance or any other sport. Maybe I'm wrong, but skating is a full time effort.

[Lmarletto]

I was always under the impression that standard dance training could conflict with skating technically. Anyone want to comment on this?

Yes, please. I had always assumed that when skating commentators talked about russian skaters and ballet training or Naomi Lang's extensive ballet training that they meant standard dance training. I can't imagine it would be an issue at my daughter's level, but I'd like to know if it's something we will need to worry about later. I guess I should ask her coach too.

All I know as a skate parent is that skating is the priority. Really no time to spare to give any other discipline that much emphasis. I guess I'm trying to say that if skating is the primary sport, you will probably have to put your emphasis there, and not think you can excell in skating and dance or any other sport. Maybe I'm wrong, but skating is a full time effort.

For sure, when you get to the point that you're at the rink every day, you can't be at the dance studio every day too. Or vice versa. I was just surprised that "dance for skaters" was offered to kids at our rink who were still in Basic Skills.

[TashaKat]

Hi

When I talked about 'dancing for skaters' I was talking about things like differences in the arabesque/spiral position, in ballet you don't bring your body down in the way that you do in skating, pirouette/spins are different (my ballet teacher tells me that I pirouette like an ice skater now!). I can't see that 'proper' dance training is going to be terribly detrimental and will certainly give more help than hinderance but if you aren't going to pursue a career in dance then it's better that you are trained by a dance teacher who is 'sympathetic' to the differences. There's little point in working towards en pointe work if you're not interested in doing ballet properly, for example. Things like that :D

I like the fact that dance gives you a lovely, elegant way of moving and great posture, something that isn't worked on QUITE as much in skating! Dancers tend to have nicer lines and use their hands/arms better. IMO it's fairly easy to spot the skaters that have studied dance and I prefer to watch those than the ones that don't but then that's probably because I come originally from a dance background :)

Lx

[max]

The only problem I've found so far in moving from dance to skating is that in skating, you are supposed to open your hip in certain movements (spiral, for example). In ballet, the opposite is true, so I have to break a muscle memory that became ingrained. I suspect that trying NOT to "spot" when spinning may be problematic too.


Both my daughters went to dance school as well as skating seriously. I believe it helped them with their artistry and "hearing" the music.

However, my younger daughter had problems with her double jumps and it was only when the coach videoed her that we realised that she was trying to "spot" as she rotated and was therefore pulling herself off balance.

My eldest daugher did some pointe work. As a result her feet are not a pretty sight which was a combination of the pointe shoes (properly fitted) and from her skates.

However, even with these problems, the dancing was a great help to both my girls.

[CanAmSk8ter]

My rink offers dance classes for skaters, but I think for a kid younger than eight or so a regular dance class geared toward kids their age might be just as beneficial. I've been taking these classes off and on for about eight years now, and with the younger kids (who, frankly, aren't very good skaters- roughly Basic7-Freestyle 4ish) they don't seem to be getting a lot out of it. The classes are an hour long, which is a lot in elementary school- I think dance classes for this age are often more like 45 minutes long?- and the classes kind of have to be geared toward the better skaters/dancers, who are often in their teens and novice/junior level. If the classes were really divided up into low and high level skaters' classes I think it would work better, but the rink has tried that and it doesn't happen. Working around ice time, levels freestyle sessions, individual coaches' schedules, etc. keeps the classes from actually being high/low.

[TashaKat]

Oh forgot ..... CAMEL SPIN!!! I ALWAYS go up on demi pointe on this and know other ex dancers that do too ....... the damn spin took me ages to get the hang of and then it was still a bit iffy! Strange because I don't really do it with other spins ...... mmmmmmmm :frus:

[twokidsskatemom]

we just want it to help with arms and movement. :) right now its just a one time one week camp which is in june.

[Magz]

Oh forgot ..... CAMEL SPIN!!! I ALWAYS go up on demi pointe on this and know other ex dancers that do too ....... the damn spin took me ages to get the hang of and then it was still a bit iffy! Strange because I don't really do it with other spins ...... mmmmmmmm :frus:
Wow! I only did like 3 years of basic ballet from when I was about 6-9ish, and I go up on demi-pointe on camel spins too!!! It really bugs me too because it tires my foot out really fast

[mikawendy]

It depends on the ballet studio. I have a friend whose feet are very messed up (they are half a size different) because she was put on pointe too early and without proper training. She has a picture of her on point at 11, and she has no arch in her feet...very bad technique, according to her. Also, she feels that if the instructor had waited until she was a bit older (read=hit puberty), she wouldn't have been putting so much stress on her still growing feet.

If you have a good instructor, there should be a pre-pointe program for the younger girls to strengthen their feet in preparation for pointe shoes. Another thing...if your daughter has just recently taken up ballet, it may be a good idea to hold off on the pointe until her technique is stronger. It's like putting a basic skater in custom boots appropriate for axels and double jumps...a bad idea no matter the age and maturity.

As for the skating vs. dancing....I took dance on and off from 3 until high school. I think you can tell by my carriage and arms on the ice, but it was very hard for me to not turn my feet out! Go figure.

Erin

ITA regarding advice for pre-pointe. Some teachers also require girls to be able to balance in passe position (similar to stork position, but with free and standing leg turned out) on releve (in soft ballet shoes, on ball of foot) for one minute, not holding onto anything. This proves that the girls have the strength and alignment in their upper body, hip, knee, and ankle to support their weight and carry themselves during pointe work.

Also, regarding bunions, fit of the shoe really matters--your daughter should be fitted the first time (don't buy from a catalog first time round). Often going into a shoe that is too narrow (thus squeezing) or that is too wide (thus letting the foot slide into the toe box of the shoe and too much weight onto the toe joints) can cause or worsen bunions (voice of experience speaking here). Each pointe shoe can fit a certain variety of feet better than other kinds of feet--there are shoes that are better for people with pointy feet, those that are better for people with wide square feet, and those that are better suited for professionals and advanced dancers because they are softer and require less breaking in (but also offer less support). Often girls going onto pointe will be asked to bring their first pair to their ballet teacher before dancing in the shoes or sewing on ribbons, to be sure that the teacher approves of the fit.

As for DBNY's original questions:

Do dancers have to "spin" in both directions, or do they just learn one like skaters?
Not only did my ballet teacher make us learn to turn in both directions, but we had to do extra fouttee turns (whipping turns using free leg, almost the reverse of the free leg action in a scratch spin) on our "bad" side to help "even" us out. We also had to do en dehors pirouettes in attitude position on both sides (similar to a layback backspin only with the back upright.) EVIL!

Is balancing more difficult in pointe shoes or skates?
I'd say skates, because your balance point varies depending on the action you're doing, your direction, etc.
In pointe, once you find your balance spot on the platform of the shoe, it's harder to fall from it (unless your shoes or the floor are slippery).

What is the most difficult aspect of skating for you?
Fear of jumping (or rather, fear of falling when I land) and also the difference in dance jumps and skating jumps--in ballet, there are a greater variety of small jumps possible, and the joints of the feet and ankles help articulate the pushoff and the landing. My feet feel imprisoned in skates when I jump.

How do you think dance has helped your skating?
Port de bras, use of core strength, phrasing to music, extension, presentation, body awareness, ability to dance/skate with a group of people and maintain spacing, unison, etc.

Do you think dance has been a problem for your skating, if so, how?
Yes, getting over having legs in external rotation all time (as in ballet) and in having the weight more to the ball of the feet has been tough, especially when I was learning spirals and spins. Also, the port de bras is slightly different--when I use ballet arms on the ice, such as second position, my ribcage doesn't feel quite right. WHen I lower them so palms are facing the ice, I feel more connected to my body.

I also really miss modern dance--the kind of weight transfers and use of torso and head-to-tail movement and floorwork really don't seem to fit into skating as much. I could put some of it in a program, but the movement qualities and physics of skating seem to resemble modern dance less than ballet. Another thing I really miss is having music for everything, like in a dance class.

[dbny]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

Another thing I really miss is having music for everything, like in a dance class.

Get yourself a tiny MP3 player and download from your PC. I haven't used mine for a while because the battery is low, but it is wonderful to be able to skate moves to music.

[passion]

Great thread!

[Chico]

I think any type of dance helps. I was a cheerleader/drill team dancer in high school, and I do think this has helped me with skating. You learn how to move to music, learn set skills and perform them with consistency, foucus on body awareness, and push yourself beyond comfort zones. Yep, spins occur both directions, as well as every other "skill" in dance. I've been told that I have good spatial awareness, and I firmly think this is to my past dance skills.

Chico