USFSA Judge Tells Adult Skater Testing MITF To Lose Weight [Archive]

morgan

03-22-2004, 07:54 AM

I'm a 48 year old bronze level skater. I'm 5'2" and wear a size 14 in street clothes. I have previously failed pre-juv. MITF several times and retested this test over the weekend. All 3 judges marked the test as "retry" since I have a tendency to skid my back 3 turns. I do not have an issue with the judges' comments on my skating test.

For the record, I tested wearing a black off the rack skating dress with a dance length skirt, over the boot tights and a black fleece warm up jacket. It was very cold in the rink and I have seen many skaters test wearing jackets. I asked me coach if I should remove the jacket, but she told me she thought it would be OK to wear it.

After I skated, one of the Judges approached my coach and suggested that I should consider losing weight, which would make it easier for me to turn. The Judge also indicated to me that she wanted to see me after the test session to offer some suggestions which I might find helpful. Although I told my coach that I found her remarks about my weight to be hurtful and inappropriate, I heeded my coach's advice to listen to this Judge at the end of the test session.

At the end of the session, the Judge approached me, unbuttoned her coat and said "I have a weight problem too and I'm sure you've struggled with your weight just like I have". I was surprised at her words, since I don't consider that I have a weight problem. This Judge described herself as being in her early 50's and my first reaction was not that she had a weight problem--maybe full figured, but certainly not obese.

The Judge then told me that she did not like my jacket, she felt it was too bulky and that if I wore a jacket to test, it should be more fitted so she could see my body line. I view this as constructive criticism, even though in pre-juv. moves the test standards relate to edges, extension and power. Then, she told me that she thought the reason I wore the jacket was because she felt I was uncomfortable in a skating dress because of my weight. She suggested that I might want to invest in a dress with built in undergarments to feel more confident. I answerered that it was very cold in the rink and that is why I wore the jacket.

She then told me that I appeared nervous. I replied that yes, I was nervous during this test, because I tend to get nervous when I test. She told me that "nerves appear to be more evident in people with weight problems". She then offered to give me some of her diet tips, which she stated in the past have helped her remove "tons of lard" (her words). I told her that I was comfortable with my body and my skin and that I was not uncomfortable in my skating dress or with issues regarding my appearance.

While it is true that if I lost 20 pounds I'm sure I would be a better skater, I have a professional desk job, a happy marriage and a happy life. I AM comfortable with who I am and how I look. I skate seriously, but am not a dieter. I believe that this Judge was well intentioned, but if she thinks that I welcome her weight comments as a kindred spirit, she is sadly mistaken. Instead, they were frankly the most hurtful remarks I've heard about myself since I started skating.

There appears to be alot of experience on this board and I was wondering if anyone had a reaction or comments to the Judge's comments. Thank you.

SkateGuard

03-22-2004, 08:40 AM

Ugh. I wish a judge would come up to me to provide criticism of my swing dance, but it scares me that a judge would mention weight. I hope the judge doesn't do that with teen girls--they don't have the self-esteem to be offended (and rightfully so), and may take that comment to an extreme.

I understand the comment about body line. Even though there aren't spirals or similar moves on the test, the judges are trained to look at overall body line. For example, if someone did their power pulls all hunched over, the judges could fail them on that move--even if the blade-to-ice stuff is passing. However, only you can decide how self-concious you feel in skating clothes, not a skatemom, not a coach, and certainly not a judge.

I find a judge to comment on the weight of a skater extremely inappropriate.

However, I do believe there is a slight bias in the judging community about weight and having the "skater's body". I'm lucky--I've always had that appearance, but I have seen times in competition when a good skater has been outmarked by a great skater who doesn't have the "typical" skater's body type. In adults, it's hard...we have pregnancys, sedentary jobs, menopause, stress etc. that plays havoc with our weights. And some of us adults 1) started skating to lose weight or 2) left skating and came back, then having a hard time trying to shake off the pounds that appeared when the calorie-burning engine of skating was removed. So there is some sensitivity about the issue.

If your doctor says you're at a healthy weight, ignore it and keep doing what you're doing. Skating for me is the motivation to keep myself healthy so I can avoid the cancer, heart disease, and diabetes that has shown up in my obese family members. I am a strong believer that health, not weight, is the most important value.

Erin
who is at a healthy weight, yet was rather self-concious in my interp costume--a halter top and pants! :P

jenlyon60

03-22-2004, 09:32 AM

I have not seen that level of what I would consider egregious comments on weight, but I am not surprised. And, it may well be that the judge was trying to provide constructive comments, but the choice of words did not convey a constructive dialog.

Anyone who knows me, knows I am short, middle-aged, and chubby... and constantly trying to lose weight. I have had numerous weight-related comments through-out my life similar to what the poster related, although not normally skating related. They were job related, since I used to be in a career that maintains weight and fitness standards for its personnel.

I think that society automatically equates "thin" with "in good physical shape", and "overweight" with "in lousy physical shape" when that may not always be true. I have seen rail-thin people who had less stamina and strength than some overweight or marginally heavy people (who did work out regularly, but due to body frame or metabolism, appeared "heavier" than they were). There's a kid at the rink I skate at who is 8 or 9 years old and has a frame where she naturally looks chubbier than she is, especially in a skating dress (put her in street clothes, and other than her face, she is definitely not chubby). But I've heard other skaters and even coaches at the rink make comments about how she'll never go anywhere in her skating because she's "fat." All this conveniently overlooking the fact that she is out there persevering and acquiring good fitness habits hopefully for life.

To the original poster... the heavy-weight OTB tights and even some of the longer dance skirts DO tend to make one look chunkier than one really is... they actually draw the eye to those areas that are being covered up. If you want to avoid the "dreaded lace tuck," try wearing the footless tights and putting the hems over the laces and eyelets. Even with a bit of bulk of the footless tights around the ankle and top of the skating boots, it doesn't always look as "clunky" as the heavyweight OTB tights.

Some (many) of the polarfleece jackets and pullovers do also. It's also my experience that a jacket that appears bulky CAN disguise some of the rotation and control in the upper body and shoulders during test sessions.

--jsl

flippet

03-22-2004, 09:39 AM

After I skated, one of the Judges approached my coach and suggested that I should consider losing weight, which would make it easier for me to turn.
That is such a load of bunk. I'm 5'1" and when I skated more seriously, I was 125-130 pounds. Not skinny, but certainly not obese or even close to it. I had a difficult time getting lift on my jumps--and I couldn't do a loop or beyond to save my life. Meanwhile, I saw one woman at a couple of competitions who was quite obviously very overweight. Strictly speaking, one of her upper legs was probably the same distance around as my waist. But this woman had lovely jumps, up though a lutz, proper edges and all, even combinations. Could she have done even better if she had weighed less? Probably. But she still had me whipped. That judge, aside from simply being WRONG, was completely out of line, and if I were you, I'd report the incident.

manleywoman

03-22-2004, 09:47 AM

I'd report it too. And certainly don't bother to test if you know that judge is on the panel. She's already biased against you.

Sounds like she translated her own weight problems on to you, as well.

skatepixie

03-22-2004, 09:54 AM

Am I the only one who doesnt see an issue here:?:

flo

03-22-2004, 10:15 AM

I find it much more effective to set an example - as you did, rather than othere means. You handled the situation like a lady. You perceived that she was well intentioned, and you thanked her for her comments while also letting her know that you were comfortable with your body.

garyc254

03-22-2004, 10:17 AM

I find a judge to comment on the weight of a skater extremely inappropriate.

ITA

No matter the judges reasoning, the judge was supposed to watch your skating, not your waistline.

Report her to the USFSA.

Isk8NYC

03-22-2004, 11:13 AM

I give you credit for not telling her off to her face. I wonder if she makes these comments to everyone that's overweight, or if she just saw potential in you and felt she would "do you a favor." Sometimes, people who want to be kind just don't get the job done. At least she didn't send you the "lose weight and dress better" message through a third party - that would have been even more embarrassing. While she made some constructive remarks, I would assume that you would receive more insults if you were to test with her again. You would also be more self-conscious and nervous.

I would mention the incident to the test chair, just to make him or her aware of the situation. If other skaters make similar remarks about the judge's behavior, it will add weight to the situation. Before you sign up for the test session, ask the test chair if she'll be judging. Be clear that you feel very uncomfortable with this judge because of her comments.

As for your skating, nail the test elements in practice and take the test again where she isn't judging. Don't let it affect your determination or ruin your love for skating.

Madame Saccoche

03-22-2004, 11:19 AM

Losing weight has nothing to do with improving three turns, it's question of good technique, postion and core strength, learning to control nerves also plays into the equation as well, the more you are stiff, the more the turn won't flow and be scraped. This judge seems to know sweet diddly about skating.

I'll also bet that you could well be fitter than her or a lot of skinny people as well. The only thing that closing weight may improve could be jumps.

You found yourself a fruit loop of a jusdge... yes they're out there. There's one here that has made it known that she thinks adults have no business skating so she'll always fail adults on test. Neither I nor any of my adult friends have ever been passed by her yet the minute we get a diiferent judge we pass with great marks.

And yes I would file a complaint, she was out of line.

Sk8r4Life

03-22-2004, 11:41 AM

I agree that the judge stepped over the line a bit by giving you unsolicited advice about your weight. However, I don't think that it should be thought of as wrong for a judge to say something about weight. There is an adult skater that I know of who is technically a very good skater. She has all the jumps and spins that are needed to place consistently high at her competitive level, and she often completes clean programs. However, she never wins, and I have a feeling it is because she is very overweight. There have been times when she has been beaten by people who obviously did not skate as well. This is very frustrating to her, but I know she would never blame it on her weight. It would actually probably be helpful if a judge DID tell her that she would do better if she lost some weight, but most judges (obviously not yours!) wouldn't be so bold. I think that if being overweight truly is holding you back, and you ask the judges what you can do to get better results from your skating, the judges should be allowed to recommend weight loss.

Weight changes can drastically affect your skating ability. Look at young skaters who hit puberty, have a big growth spurt, and all of a sudden they can't do their jumps anymore. It changes your center of gravity. I'm not saying that you can't be a good skater if you are overweight, obviously people have done it, but it seems like that would make an already difficult sport just that much harder.

Weight is a very sensitive issue. Unfortunately, this sport places a high value on "looking the part". Other sports, such as gymnastics and wrestling, are way worse concerning weight issues. I'm not saying it's right, and certainly it can cause a big issue as far as body image and eating disorders go. But that's the way it is, and I think it would be very hard to change this in a sport that is as much about grace and elegance of appearance as it is about athleticism.

Mrs Redboots

03-22-2004, 11:41 AM

I must admit, I would have been furious had it been me - I would probably skate better if I lost 30-40 lbs, but do you think I don't know that?

I often wonder whether judges take one look at me as I skate out to enter a dance class and mark my starting level way down because I'm fat. On the other hand, I do get good marks for interpretive skating..... some of the time! And I am not the fattest skater I know, by any manner of means - some skaters who are much heavier for their build than I am are also far better skaters than me.

Well, most of them, actually, but let's not go there.....;)

peaches

03-22-2004, 12:59 PM

I'm not surprised that the judge felt that way, just surprised that she actually told you. Snarky comments about adult skaters and their weight is very common, but most of them just make comments while they're on the panel and never approach the skater.

I'm pretty surethis will sound all wrong, but I'll say it anyway. I'm 5'2" and I can't imagine how much I'd have to weigh to be a size 14. I'm pretty sure I'd be considered overweight at the very least, with an unhealthy BMI, if I were that big. I'm sure she said something out of concern for you, but could/should have worded it in a more considerate way. Since you don't consider your weight a problem, however, the point is moot. They can recommend anything they want. Whether or not you take their advice is up to you.

It's not right to judge someone by their weight, but in the sport of figure skating, it's a reality. That said, I'm sure if you'd gotten the 3's down pat they'd have passed you.

charlie

03-22-2004, 01:00 PM

After I skated, one of the Judges approached my coach and suggested that I should consider losing weight, which would make it easier for me to turn. The Judge also indicated to me that she wanted to see me after the test session to offer some suggestions which I might find helpful. Although I told my coach that I found her remarks about my weight to be hurtful and inappropriate, I heeded my coach's advice to listen to this Judge at the end of the test session.

With comments like these being made, it's no wonder skaters are so likely to develop eating disorders. I think it can be okay for a judge to address weight issues if the skater asks for feedback in that area, but it should not be given unsolicited. That judge had absolutely no right to make the comments she did, and they were way out of line. She clearly seems to have some of her own issues regarding weight and dieting, and it's wrong for her to try to push those issues onto you as well. I'm really sorry you had to hear that from her, but it sounds like you handled the situation with grace and dignity. It's refreshing to hear how much confidence you have in yourself and your body.

On a side note, I wanted to mention that I was at Adult Sectionals this past weekend, and saw women of many different body types competing. I saw overweight skaters landing beautiful jumps, underweight skaters struggling with jumps, and everything in between. Weight is not everything in this sport. Sure, having less fat on one's body will make it easier to complete the harder jumps, but having good technique will get you a whole lot further.

jazzpants

03-22-2004, 01:54 PM

That judge was out of line. PERIOD!!!

Skid back 3's is a technique issue, not a weight issue. If your coach can't help you in this skid back 3's area, get another coach who can look at your problem from a different perspective! Maybe there's something that your coach is not seeing that this coach may see.

vesperholly

03-22-2004, 02:50 PM

After I skated, one of the Judges approached my coach and suggested that I should consider losing weight, which would make it easier for me to turn. The Judge also indicated to me that she wanted to see me after the test session to offer some suggestions which I might find helpful. Although I told my coach that I found her remarks about my weight to be hurtful and inappropriate, I heeded my coach's advice to listen to this Judge at the end of the test session.
<snip>
I believe that this Judge was well intentioned, but if she thinks that I welcome her weight comments as a kindred spirit, she is sadly mistaken. Instead, they were frankly the most hurtful remarks I've heard about myself since I started skating.

You're darn tootin' that this judge's comments about your weight are inappropriate. How does she know that you didn't just lose 50 pounds recently? Weight has nothing to do with turning ability - I passed my Intermediate MIF at a street-clothes size larger than yours. Almost every non-elite skater could probably stand to lose a few pounds. And that's none of anyone's business but the skater's.

I would write a letter to the test chair detailing your complaint and asking them not to ask this judge back again. Judges depend on clubs calling them for test sessions to get future appointments. I think the USFSA will probably dismiss your complaint because 1. You don't have concrete evidence, like a tape recording, and 2. They will protect judges, especially if she is a Gold or National judge.

Good luck!

Skatewind

03-22-2004, 04:33 PM

While I would never suggest biased comments such as these are acceptable from a judge, especially when they are unsolicited, some of these remarks have gone a little overboard. I don't know whether everyone is aware or not, but there is a serious judging shortage compared to the increased test volume. The USFSA would be derelict in their duties if they dismissed a trained judged based on one example of insensitive remarks made to a skater that didn't have any affect on whether or not the skater passed the test. I can see where discussion could be recommended regarding approaching skaters & the tone of comments, but I find it hard to believe that people are suggesting any judge be dismissed/disciplined based on one incident of disagreement over a boorish opinion, & without knowing her judging record & other such information.

If I was in your situation, I would immediately let the judge know directly if I considered the remarks biased & unprofessional. Speak to the test chair if you feel strongly about it. I disagree with vesperholly in the tone of feedback you should use, because I don't think it's up to an individual skater to decide whether or not a judge comes to your club's test sessions. It would be up to you to give a report to your club representative outlining why you deemed the comments inappropriate. Also judges trial judge for future appointments, so they can go to available test sessions in their area that have room & it's not really supposed to be an invitational situation unless it's a bigger competition or the club in question already has a lot of their own trial judges on the session. There are situations where judges may not be preferred by certain clubs, but the judge's club is expected to support their affiliated judges & invited them to tests, competitions etc. unless there are extenuating circumstances certainly more severe than what's been outlined here. I don't think it has much to do with "protecting the judge" but with what's considered a serious offense, or how many boorish comments it takes. I know club officials who get a lot of totally rude & uncalled for remarks from parents & skaters. Does that mean the club must dismiss them for it or should they simply be instructed they're being rude & given a chance to improve?

Also I would review the coach's role in the scenario, since you sounded hesitant to pursue additional feedback but did so at the urging of your coach. Clarify with the coach your concerns & dissatisfaction about this incident. It sounds like you would have been better off going with your first instincts. It seems to me the coach should have also informed you removing the jacket for the test would have been the best approach.

flippet

03-22-2004, 05:19 PM

There is an adult skater that I know of who is technically a very good skater. She has all the jumps and spins that are needed to place consistently high at her competitive level, and she often completes clean programs. However, she never wins, and I have a feeling it is because she is very overweight. There have been times when she has been beaten by people who obviously did not skate as well. This is very frustrating to her, but I know she would never blame it on her weight. It would actually probably be helpful if a judge DID tell her that she would do better if she lost some weight,.
I completely disagree with this--as long as the SKATING is done well, it shouldn't matter one little whit what size or weight a person is. If this skater would 'do better' if she lost some weight, then the judges are judging on looks, not on skating. And that's simply WRONG. Why should we encourage that kind of attitude and behavior?

I'm 5'2" and I can't imagine how much I'd have to weigh to be a size 14.
145-160, give or take. I know, because I just had a baby, gained 50 pounds, and spent a few months coming down in a size 14. While I certainly wasn't skinny, and wasn't particularly happy at that weight (either psychologically or physically), I still wouldn't have considered myself as having a 'weight problem'. Especially if I had been fit, instead of flabby. I have a friend who is probably at about that size right now, and she's made of solid muscle, and is much healthier than I am, even when I was thinner.

I agree that this judge has personal problems of her own, and projected them onto the OP.

peshu

03-22-2004, 06:19 PM

I agree that the judge was out of line, and I think you handled the situation with dignity. I also think it is fair for you ask your test chair if this judge will be on the panel before signing up for a test session. Test sessions are nerve-wracking enough as it is without having to wonder if that judge is focusing on your weight and not on your skating.

The root cause of your scrapey three-turns is not your weight. Although a 'skinny' person may have an easier time getting her center of gravity where it needs to be, she isn't doing a terrific 3 because she's skinny, she's doing it because her mechanics are good. Your coach should help you pinpoint why your 3s are scrapey and what you might be able to do to improve, beyond practice. If your coach is also buying into the idea that your 3s are bad because of your weight, I think it's time for another coach. I'm in my late '40s, 5'4" and also a size 14 and the only time my coach refers to my weight is to tell me something such as to be sure I have my weight over the ball of my foot. When my three turns were scrapey on the exit edge, he worked with me on my posture, where my weight was over my skating foot, what my shoulders were doing, in other words, the mechanics. Never once did he hint that my problems would be solved if I lost weight. I've been in aerobics classes where size 2 twentysomethings can't keep up whereas I can. Fitness and stamina are not necessarily a function of weight. Neither is overall health. You strike me as someone who has a healthy lifestyle and attitude, and don't let one person's opinion sabotage that.

I do suggest that you skip the jacket the next time, because it can obscure your body line. My coach won't let anyone wear a jacket during a test. No matter how fitted, they can make your shoulders look hunched and your overall posture sloppy. Have you tried a dress made of stretch velvet? I find it warmer than lycra. And if the style of my dress permitted, I've also worn a thin leotard underneath; the extra layer helps keep you warm, even if it is thin.

For the record, being a size 14 does not necessarily mean that you are a ball of flab. A person's build has a lot to do with it, which is one of my quibbles with the BMI. When I was at my lowest adult weight, my hip bones jutted out and you could count my ribs if I wore something clingy. I was a size 10 then. A friend of mine is a very petite size 4, and would be obese at a size 10.

peaches

03-22-2004, 06:27 PM

I don't know whether everyone is aware or not, but there is a serious judging shortage compared to the increased test volume. The USFSA would be derelict in their duties if they dismissed a trained judged based on one example of insensitive remarks made to a skater that didn't have any affect on whether or not the skater passed the test.

I agree. Insensitive remarks are not cause for dismissal, IMO. If they were, we'd be flat out of judges.

If posters think people need to get fired for discussing weight then it needs to start from the ground up, with the coaches.

SkateGuard

03-22-2004, 06:31 PM

I'm pretty surethis will sound all wrong, but I'll say it anyway. I'm 5'2" and I can't imagine how much I'd have to weigh to be a size 14. I'm pretty sure I'd be considered overweight at the very least, with an unhealthy BMI, if I were that big.

But in the fashion world, the sizes are screwy. 14 is really not that big--I've accidentally tried some on, thinking they were my size. Now 22W...that's another story.

If a skater is big enough to have diabetes, asthma, heart problems, etc....that is when someone has to say something. But how would a judge know that about a person? I would consider that the responsiblity of a spouse, family, friends, or a coach close to the skater. (BTW, obesity is a serious health problem with my extended family...my immediate family is fine, thanks to my heath food nut mother!)

As to the person who said that it doesn't matter about body size...I quite agree. I had a bout of acid reflux last summer that put me at 95 lbs. I had started my axel and had a solid program before then. At that point, I was struggling to do solid toes and sals--and I had trouble finishing a 1:40 program!

When I started to gain the weight back (I got to eat Ben & Jerry's :) ), my jumps became more solid, my endurance went up, and every stroke felt stronger!

However, I wonder if skaters who carry a great deal of extra pounds have more injuries from the pounding of jumps. Force does equal mass times acceleration (a constant), so would a heavier skater have more knee and ankle problems because of the amount of force on that skating leg?

The problem with this judge is that we don't know if s/he would have made the same comment to a 16 y.o. kid going through puberty who doesn't have healthy eating habits at home. If the kid is already sensitive about the weight gain, that situation is an eating disorder waiting to happen. Ugh.

Erin
who had a skating friend who complained about being downmarked for being fat while watching her consume five bags of french fries in two days!

climbsk8

03-22-2004, 06:49 PM

I have to admit, I'm AMAZED that a few of the posters on this board think that body weight comments are fair in the sport of skating.

Yes, weight can affect performance. Duh. But Judges should mark, and comment on, performance. Leave the root causes of the performance, good or bad, up to the skater and the coach. Judges are not dietitians, psychologists or fashion consultants and they shouldn't act like they are.

This judge should be reported to the test chair of the club and the USFSA. Not to get dismissed, necessarily, but just so the problem can be dealt with. Judges can learn from mistakes, just like skaters can.

And to the target of this absurd comment....hang in there and keep your chin up! (It will help on your 3s) :)

sk8pics

03-22-2004, 07:13 PM

First I want to say I, too, think the judge was out of line.

But in the fashion world, the sizes are screwy. 14 is really not that big--
...
However, I wonder if skaters who carry a great deal of extra pounds have more injuries from the pounding of jumps. Force does equal mass times acceleration (a constant), so would a heavier skater have more knee and ankle problems because of the amount of force on that skating leg?

Well, I think sizes are screwy, too, but not in the way you do. I remember when I was in grad school more than 20 years ago, I was quite fit and weighed about 20 pounds less than what I do now, and I wore a size 8 or 10, although the 8 could be tight. Now, I wear an 8 in many styles! There is no way I could fit in the 20-years-ago size 8. I think since Americans have been gaining weight, the clothing designers have adjusted their sizing so people don't feel too badly about their weight! That's how it seems to me, anyway.

On the injury note, I wanted to add that I lost about 36 pounds since May last year, and the on-again off-again tendonitis that I had in my ankle completely went away. So yes, too much weight could contribute to injuries or general soreness.

Pat

vesperholly

03-22-2004, 07:46 PM

I disagree with vesperholly in the tone of feedback you should use, because I don't think it's up to an individual skater to decide whether or not a judge comes to your club's test sessions. It would be up to you to give a report to your club representative outlining why you deemed the comments inappropriate.

Well, clubs are notorious for ignoring things, valid or not. An individual skater doesn't decide which judges come, the test chair does. I highly doubt a club would stop invited a judge for one complaint unless it was very serious.

If this judge continues to go around to every slightly overweight person and suggest (out of whatever kindness) they diet, there is a bigger problem. And things like this should be documented when they happen in case of future behavior.

Terri C

03-22-2004, 08:08 PM

I'm sorry, but if I were you (and I do have a little bit of spare tire) I would report her to USFS, since the comments were uncalled for! Just remember to use the proper channels,starting with your test chair.
By the way, what does your coach think of this?

sk8er1964

03-22-2004, 08:19 PM

I've been thinking a bit before posting on this one. Wanted to get my thoughts together.

First, I think you handled the judge well - I probably would have slugged her. I also agree that you should talk to your test chair about her. I wouldn't want a judge that insensitive judging anyone at my club - if she's got hang-ups about weight, she's probably got other issues that could cause her to not be impartial.

Someone mentioned the lack of judges - that is true. However, if you have a judge who thinks that weight is the cause of scraping 3's, instead of improper technique, then she is not a very good judge. Weight does not keep you from being able to skate.

I was somewhere around a size 18 when I passed my Gold moves in the field and Gold freestyle. I was between a size 16 and 18 when I passed my Intermediate moves in the field. Now I do think my weight loss has helped my skating (50+ pounds and still going down), mostly because I find I have more stamina and energy, but the weight I was carrying obviously didn't effect my ability to skate.

So I think you should enjoy skating just the way you are. Try to make sure that she does not judge any more of your tests, even if you have to request to go out of club. You don't need the hassle of dealing with a judge with preconcieved notions when you are already in a stressful situation. Good luck, work on the technique for those 3's, and next time show them just how well us "non-conforming" gals can skate! :D

dbny

03-22-2004, 09:02 PM

Well, I think sizes are screwy, too, but not in the way you do. I remember when I was in grad school more than 20 years ago, I was quite fit and weighed about 20 pounds less than what I do now, and I wore a size 8 or 10, although the 8 could be tight. Now, I wear an 8 in many styles! There is no way I could fit in the 20-years-ago size 8. I think since Americans have been gaining weight, the clothing designers have adjusted their sizing so people don't feel too badly about their weight! That's how it seems to me, anyway.

You're not alone. I've noticed the same thing and there was an article about just that in the NY Times recently.

I also think the judge was out of line. A few times I've suggested to my coach that I thought certain things would clean up if I could just lose more weight (45 pounds since I started skating, and stable for 2 years now, but would love to lose 10-20 more). She laughed at the very idea! One of her best adult students (and a skating buddy of mine) is clearly overweight, but it has not stopped her from progressing very steadily and beautifully.

edited to correct the amt of weight I lost - 45, not 65. I must have been dreaming.

peaches

03-22-2004, 09:12 PM

I think since Americans have been gaining weight, the clothing designers have adjusted their sizing so people don't feel too badly about their weight! That's how it seems to me, anyway.

Pat

I heard something on the radio a few days ago about just that. Designers realize they need to compensate for the growing size of Americans. Yes, let's reward people for their growing obesity! UGH.

But for a while now I've felt it's been the opposite. I used to wear a 2 and now I wear a 4. Same weight, same measurements. And if I hold up my old 2's next to new 4's they're the same size. I think designers went a little Ally McBeal for a while there and now the pendulum will swing as far in the other direction. I wish they'd make up their minds!

This will sound insensitive, but, IMO, anyone wearing a size 14 at 5'2" is probably overweight by doctors standards. I don't think anyone should wait until their weight causes them problems before losing. I think it's better addressed before they get an injury or disease that cannot be reversed.

Again, I don't think it's fair to judge anyone based on weight, but I accept that this is a sport driven by image as much as talent and therefore the overweight are at a disadvantage.

twokidsskatemom

03-22-2004, 09:52 PM

I think out of line 8O 8O

DancinDiva

03-22-2004, 10:09 PM

This will sound insensitive, but, IMO, anyone wearing a size 14 at 5'2" is probably overweight by doctors standards. I don't think anyone should wait until their weight causes them problems before losing. I think it's better addressed before they get an injury or disease that cannot be reversed.

Again, I don't think it's fair to judge anyone based on weight, but I accept that this is a sport driven by image as much as talent and therefore the overweight are at a disadvantage.

You're right, that does sound insensitive. And it was unnecessary. I think that the judge was out of line as well. As others pointed out, being overweight is not necessarily an indicator of how healthy someone is. Nor does it prevent one from becoming a good athlete. All that should matter is that one can perform the necessary skills, how they look should not be a factor. If a person is overweight but comfortable with themselves, then good for them! Bravo for getting out htere on the ice and doing what you love, instead of hiding at home for fear of what others might think!

Elsy2

03-22-2004, 10:25 PM

Someone mentioned the lack of judges - that is true. However, if you have a judge who thinks that weight is the cause of scraping 3's, instead of improper technique, then she is not a very good judge. Weight does not keep you from being able to skate.

:D

This is exactly what I was thinking.....

I'm also thinking for those of you equating size 14 with being larger than you'd like....I'm skinny, and I wear size 12. I've worn 14 too, and was a bit heavier than I like, but I've learned that different bodies carry weight very differently....That's really not the point here, but I thought I'd bring it up.

I'm curious what you all think the test chair should do in a case like this...
Test chairs being volunteers who are basically organizers and record keepers...I'm just not clear what action you are expecting from them?

Chico

03-22-2004, 10:28 PM

I'm sorry you had such awful testing experience. Tests should be about skills not weight. You and your doctor are the best judge if your weight is okay or not. I personally know some very good skaters who are on the heavier side. Skating at our age, adults, should be about fun, challenge, exercise and community. Needing to improve on skills is one thing, to be "attacked" on personal issues is another. Keep skating and have fun.

Chico

dobiesk8r

03-23-2004, 06:49 AM

I've thought about this for a while. First, :bow: to all those adult skaters who have posted about skating, testing, losing weight etc. Whatever shape or size, go you! for being out there and getting it done. I seem to remember looking at a video clip of one of the posters on this thread who was certainly not skinny; I was very impressed with her skating and her overall look. It was lovely.

That said, I will say that I have experienced comments based on how I look when taking tests, but from the other viewpoint. I am a small, slim adult who has battled back from two pregnancies, so I think I have some appreciation for weight gain. At one of the last tests I took, the test chair told me "Oh, I know you'll pass, you're a gorgeous adult." I remember thinking as I skated out what the hell that had to do with anything. And then there was the time my former coach said to me before a test "Oh, I wish that other judge was on the panel who was here earlier. He was just passing all the good looking skaters, no matter how badly they skated". Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence. Need I say that I crashed and burned with two of the judges on that one? :lol: What I would rip that judge for is the fact that she felt that extra weight meant extra nerves. Uh, no.

I had a long talk with a triple gold coach whose opinion I respect enormously. (I used to teach her classes when she had to go to competitions) Thought she is in her 50's and she is carrying a little extra weight, she advises her students to have a healthy diet. The pounding of jumps is aggravated with extra weight, no question, she believes. She would tell this to her kid students and her adult students, and she is a no-nonsense kind of person, unafraid to address the elephant in the room (couldn't resist the pun, sorry).

My former coach definitely used to make comments about my weight from time to time - and I was no more than 118 lbs. at the time, size 4. I think it's just the way this sport is - and perhaps that is why I am glad my daughter plays field hockey and lacrosse. It's not about how you look, it's about how fast you run and how well you stickhandle. There's all shapes and sizes out there.

I know that last winter I was carrying five more pounds than I am now. My knee hurt. I stopped skating and went to the gym. The weight is off, my knee is stronger and nothing hurts. I did about a million backspins at a new rink yesterday and I felt fine. But that's just me, and I no longer wish to test, so it's just recreational now.

Sk8r4Life

03-23-2004, 09:01 AM

Obesity is about to overtake smoking as the #1 preventable health risk factor. I don't think there is anyone here who would argue that smoking is good for you, or even ok. So why is everyone saying that being overweight is ok? It is a FACT that being overweight increases your risk for heart disease, certain cancers, diabetes, stroke. Not to mention that skating while overweight puts a great amount of stress on your joints! Someone who is 5'2" and 145-160 has a BMI of about 27-29. BMI over 25 is considered overweight and an increased disease risk. If your waist circumference is over 35" in females and 40" in males, you now have a HIGH risk of these diseases. It's true that BMI is not always an accurate indicator of body fat, such as in bodybuilders who have a high weight for height but little body fat. But for most people, probably including adult skaters, it is a good assessment.

The people who have posted that skating places a high value on appearance and who thought that body weight comments in skating are ok have been chastised by those of you in favor of promoting a good body image no matter what your weight, and those of you who feel the judge should be punished for her words. I'm all for having a good body image no matter what your weight (though I believe your body image will be better if you have a healthy weight--not overweight and not underweight either). I also agree that the judge's comments were out of line, because they were unsolicited. But if you don't think that appearance makes a difference in skating, you are hiding your head in the sand. If appearance doesn't matter, why do we wear pretty dresses with crystals on them? If appearance doesn't matter, why is half of the score based on presentation/artistic quality? Like I said in a previous post, I'm not saying it's right. But it does exist.

dbny

03-23-2004, 10:18 AM

Obesity is about to overtake smoking as the #1 preventable health risk factor. I don't think there is anyone here who would argue that smoking is good for you, or even ok. So why is everyone saying that being overweight is ok?

I don't want to be offensive, but you have come off sounding just a bit preachy, IMO.

I do not think anyone here is saying that being overweight is "OK" in the sense of healthy. We all know, by now, the health risks of obesity. As adults, what we also know, is that managing one's weight is an intensely personal and often very difficult matter.

Until you have struggled with excess weight, you really do not know how difficult it is. NO ONE except a medical professional acting in that capacity should ever offer unsolicited advice about someone else's weight.

Absolutely no purpose is served by walking around focussing on how fat one is. I am 5'3" and now weigh 150 pounds, which is 10 pounds too many for my height, age and gender. I would love to lose that 10 pounds, and more, but I know from experience that if I start feeling deprived of food, the jig is up and I will rebound with obsessive eating, so I go slowly and understand that I may never be able to lose that 10 pounds. That's what I mean when I say I am comfortable with my weight. Meanwhile, skating has toned me such that I often receive compliments on my appearance, and while I would have considered my self obese at this weight 30 years ago (I was 116 and a size 6 back then), I do not now!

Skatewind

03-23-2004, 10:42 AM

I'm curious what you all think the test chair should do in a case like this...
Test chairs being volunteers who are basically organizers and record keepers...I'm just not clear what action you are expecting from them?
If the person provides the necessary feedback to the test chair, then the test chair should discuss it with the judge, notify the club of the complaint, keep some kind of record documenting the incident & then follow-up with the skater and/or coach. My disagreement with some of the previous remarks is that it is not appropriate for a skater to demand some form of disciplinary action (i.e. insisting that the club no longer use this judge or that the judge be disciplined or even discharged by USFSA) based on the example that has been given here. If that is what is truly believed, it would be better to go back & review the rulebook & the guidelines before continuing the discussion.

The skater should submit a complaint when they are dissatisfied with something at a club sponsored activity. Along with the complaint, it would be appropriate for the skater to suggest a reasonable resolution, i.e. requesting that this judge not judge her tests in the future because it makes her uncomfortable, etc. Some of the things that have been suggested are not reasonable considering the information given. It is not up to the test chair to keep the skater apprised of which judges are being assigned to a test because of one incident like this. Attempts are now supposed to be made at the local level to work out problems such as these, before they are pursued at the USFSA level. If it was a serious ethical or rule violation, then that might not be the case, but that is certainly not what has been been provided in the example.

I have had people in skating say all kinds of things to me over the years. The best way to deal with it is to address it immediately & have a methodical way to follow-up the problem. When something like this is said to me, I let the person know immediately that it's a problem, as soon as it's said. Or if I'm aware the person is a problem individual, I make myself unavailable for the discussion during the event. If we are going to start dismissing & disciplining members over every slight or boorish remark (this one is a mild example of the kinds of things I regularly hear from people in skating), then we can probably reduce a lot of clubs membership by half & good luck finding people who are going to keep things runnning when you want to micro manage everything using such an overzealous approach.

I'm also surprised there has not been more focus looking at experiences like this from a more proactive standpoint. My first thoughts when reading the initial post were a) a tactless judge lacking objectivity; & b) another skater put out for a test by a coach when there are very obvious technical problems.

peshu

03-23-2004, 11:45 AM

Sk8r4Life -

I don't think anyone here has condoned obesity. We all know the dangers of excess weight, and you correctly point out the increased risk of disease as a result. Many of us have had to struggle with our weight and aren't blessed with a natural tendency to be thin. As we age our metabolism slows and it gets harder and harder to maintain an ideal weight. Does that mean we should stay out of the rink? That judges shouldn't evaluate our skating and judge us solely on how 'attractive' we are? I don't know of any doctor, including my own husband, who would tell an overweight person to not get some form of exercise (with the appropriate caution to the sedentary to take it easy at first) and encourage them to improve their fitness level, if not their weight. Even without an accompanying weight loss, physical activity is known to reduce blood pressure, for example, which reduces your risk of heart disease and stroke. Not all of us size 14s are that way because we binge on fast food and eat enough for three people. My diet consists of lots of vegetables, fruits, soy products, fish, and the occasional lean meat and chicken. I also carefully monitor my cholesterol, triglycerides, blood sugar, etc. because of familial history with heart disease. As my wonderful PCP says, my numbers are excellent, I eat right, my fitness level is excellent, my percentage body fat is normal, and I should keep doing all that good stuff and if I can lose a few pounds that would be great, but not to sweat it either. He isn't telling me it's great to be overweight, but he is encouraging all the things I'm doing that are good for me. I've lost 20 pounds recently and am slowly and surely taking more off, and yes, my stamina is a lot better. You have no way of knowing where someone is with their weight or their health - you can't pass judgement just because someone doesn't conform to your standard of normal. The point is, whether in skating or in life in general, you can't make judgements based on appearance.

Sk8r4Life

03-23-2004, 12:48 PM

I'm sorry if I sounded preachy or out of line with my comments about the negative effects of being overweight. The reason that I posted that was not because I felt that the entire board supported obesity or was clueless about the health risks. It was because the original poster admitted that she was 20 pounds overweight but was "not a dieter" and was comfortable with her weight. Then several people chimed in and supported her and bashed the judge. If the testing skater had said something like what peshu did about how even though she was a bit overweight, she was carefully monitoring her diet and indicators of her cardiovascular health, I probably wouldn't have felt the need to post what I did. But the reason I posted that was because no one else had suggested that maybe it would actually benefit this skater's health to lose weight. I didn't mean to offend anyone or suggest that people are ignorant.

In an ideal world, no one would judge anyone based on appearance. But in the real world, people are judged on appearance all the time. It happens socially, in the workplace, in the sports arena. Social psychology and workplace research has shown that people who are perceived to have a better or more positive appearance make more money, are promoted faster, and seem more credible. Many companies make hiring decisions that are based at least in part on appearance, and many decisions about hiring are made within the first few minutes of an interview. t's just how the brain works. From an evolutionary standpoint, it's helpful to be able to make snap judgements based on appearance. It can tell you if that person quickly advancing toward you is hostile or friendly. Of course, it's maybe not applicable in many modern-day situations.

I'm not trying to be preachy with this post either, just offering another viewpoint (one of the benefits of message boards!) You certainly don't have to agree with me!

Figureskates

03-23-2004, 02:10 PM

Maybe I am too much from the old school, but I found the comment callous and cruel.

The only person who has made any comment about my weight is my coach, but I have worked with her for 5 years and she knows me well enough and I know she is looking out for my best interests. (In my case, I sometimes lose a lot of weight when I get sick and my coach doesn't like it when I get too thin...this past January I dropped to 159...not good for a 6' male who normally weighs 174). But to have a perfect stranger make such a comment in my book is out of line....

Just my $0.02...

Mrs Redboots

03-23-2004, 03:01 PM

peaches

03-23-2004, 03:28 PM

I don't think anybody is "condoning" obesity, but since when has a size 14 been obese? Marilyn Monroe took a US size 12! (Blissful American sizes - I take between 16 and 20 here in the UK, and in the US it is between 12 and 16!). The "extra 20 lbs" that so many of us - myself included - would like to lose are more a matter of fashion than of health. If we were 50 or 60 lbs overweight - having to wear size 20 American or bigger - then that would be another story.

But we aren't. We are mature women, with womanly figures, not skinny little girls. We skate to the best of our ability, not always very well, but well enough to enjoy ourselves, to compete against our peers in age and ability, and perhaps to pass a few tests. The judge was, I think, out of line.

I read somewhere that being as little as 10% over recommended healthy weight for your height can put a person at high risk for diseases such as high blood pressure or diabetes.

An extra 20 pounds is more than a fashion issue, it's a health issue, period. You can have a "womanly figure" and still be at proper weight for your height.

Sk8r4Life

03-23-2004, 04:21 PM

I don't think anybody is "condoning" obesity, but since when has a size 14 been obese? Marilyn Monroe took a US size 12! (Blissful American sizes - I take between 16 and 20 here in the UK, and in the US it is between 12 and 16!).

Check out this article about the "urban legend" of Marilyn and weight! It does say that she was probably about a 12 when at her heaviest (but probably not when she was a pinup). It also talks about, as has been pointed out here, that sizes have changed over the years.

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/mmdress.htm

Height also makes a difference when considering size. Someone who is 5'9" and wears a 14 would probably not be overweight. But a much shorter person who wears a 14 probably is. I'm 5'1" and I would think if I had to take a size 10 or even an 8 in some brands I would probably be overweight.

I saw an article on plastic surgery in Cosmo or some other fluff fashion mag that had surgeons picking apart Marilyn Monroe--recommending lipo here, a tuck there, etc. 8O

flippet

03-23-2004, 06:00 PM

But the reason I posted that was because no one else had suggested that maybe it would actually benefit this skater's health to lose weight.
I know I didn't mention it because 1) I don't have a personal relationship with the OP, therefore have no business telling her what to do about her weight when she didn't ask for that kind of input, 2) how would I know, anyway? I'm not her doctor. She could be fitter than I am, though I may weigh less, and 3) if it would benefit the OP to lose weight, I'm sure she knows it, and doesn't need me telling her. I doubt there's a person in America who hasn't had it rammed through their head that supposedly, weight loss=health.

SkateGuard

03-23-2004, 07:42 PM

ITA Skatewind.

These comments cannot be ignored. I'll give the judge the benefit of the doubt and say that the judge believes the comment was well-intentioned. However, how many other skaters is this judge approaching with well-intentioned "comments"?

morgan, you may want to find out (through your coach, other adults in the club or area) if this judge has made comments to other skaters. When one person complains, it can be dismissed as "oh, she's just upset about her test." When several people complain, it's another story.

Also, figureskates, I have the same problem. My coach is telling me to gain weight. The irony is that thanks to the skating, I'm heavier than I look. (Remember, muscle is more dense than fat!) I actually ignore it and focus on being healthy.

Erin

Chico

03-23-2004, 09:08 PM

I'm built small like dobiesk8r. I've had two children too. And yes, I've heard the "perfect skating" body comments too. My old coach was forever telling me this, and he wasn't shy about including my small chest size. (I used to think about whacking him at times.) I'm sure my smaller size does help in some aspects of skating, but I'd like to think I have to fight it out like everyone else. I haven't found that my size has elimated my many littles isms. I work at fixing them on a pretty regular basis. I would be pissed if some judge passed me do my apperance, just like the gal who was mad at the weight comments made at her test session. I agree that folks seem to be getting heavier lately and that this is a trend that should stop. However, this is the skaters and doctors concern. Maybe, a caring friend, loved one or coach. I give kudos to any adult who skates, skinny or heavy.

Chico

dani

03-24-2004, 06:42 AM

This is an interesting thread. While losing weight can make certain things in skating easier, in and of itself it doesn't cause any test elements that I have seen to fail. I also agree that the judge may have thought she was doing a good thing but that it went horribly wrong. I doubt seriously that she meant to be mean or callous. A good conversation from the test chair could help out matters and problem fixed.

HOWEVER, skating is very, um, political, right? Personally, I wouldn't want to offend any judges who might judge me later. I just wouldn't think that it would be worth it, even though I was right. I have been judged out of the same pool of 5 or so judges for each of my judges.

Hugs,
Danielle

ps) My coach and I only really trust the comments of one or two of the judges that I have had, the others tend to get the "right" results, but the comments are less on point.

quarkiki2

03-24-2004, 10:02 AM

I think that it's a little crazy that this judge was teling you that your weight was an issue with your three-turns because, it seems to me, that the three-turn issue is a matter of technique.

As an overweight person (I wear a 16), I can honestly say that when I was choreographing Hair last year (with its 28 dance numbers), I was kicking the pants off of the skinny college students in the cast. I had a thousand times more energy and greater stamina than they did. And I wasn't particularly fit at that point in my life. And I was having issues with my asthma (which, contrary to another post in this thread, is NOT a byproduct of obesity).

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but I would have included my coach in the feedback session, if not just to have another set of ears picking up what I needed to work on. I don't think I'd file a complaint because the judge (as far as I can tell) wasn't being malicious about her comments.

Do I want to lose weight? Of course. Am I trying? Well, I was until the pregnancy and miscarriage and will resume when I am healthy again. But even at this weight, I can run a 9-minute mile and can run 5 miles like many other skinny people I know. In high school, I ran a 13-minute mile -- back when I was as thin as I'd ever been and still in a size 10 -- hey, I gotta have bones!

Sk8r4Life

03-24-2004, 10:30 AM

I think the last two posters make good points in support of not filing a complaint. I agree that the judge was probably not trying to be mean. I'm sure she felt she was helping, in the same way a judge would try to help you by suggesting (for example) that you improve your posture. Both have to do with how your body looks when skating and both can be changed, though it may be difficult.

If no other complaints have been made about the judge, and since there were no witnesses to the comments, it's quite likely that filing a complaint will not result in any action. Even if there was action, it's certainly not going to be to completely remove the judge. The French judge in the Olympic pairs scandal who admitted to wrongdoing was only suspended! It's possible you will be judged by this person again, why risk being a victim of their wrath?

dobiesk8r

03-24-2004, 12:08 PM

I, too, do not believe that the judge should be reported. For what? Foot-in-mouth disease? In her own way, it sounds as though she thought she was helping. Oh well. A good lesson to us all to think before we speak.

Perhaps the judge identified a bit too strongly with the OP, and assumed that she also struggled with her weight.

As I said before, the thing I found most ridiculous was that she thought that extra weight contributed to nerves.

As for sizes, they vary so much it's ridiculous. I'm 5'3", slim but muscular and a bit busty. It all depends on the maker, and I think some designers like to flatter their customers - the more expensive the clothing the smaller the size. Old Navy size 4 pants leave me gasping for breath. St. John size 2 petites are perfect 8-) My daughter currently wears a size 0. I have told her - just you wait, kid, just you wait. Curves hit everyone eventually.

Mrs Redboots

03-24-2004, 12:40 PM

An extra 20 pounds is more than a fashion issue, it's a health issue, period. You can have a "womanly figure" and still be at proper weight for your height.The trouble is, most women are now expected to be about 20 lbs underweight! At least, compared to 45 or so years ago. Fashions change, and so do women's figures - just look at any pictures of models in the 1920s, 40s, 60s, 80s and today. We might like to think that current medical thinking tells us all there is to be known, but that, too, changes dramatically every so often as new discoveries are made!

When I was a girl, for instance, I was taught that women naturally had 1/2" of fat under their skin - but I imagine you modern girls are taught that any body fat at all is wrong......

jazzpants

03-24-2004, 12:48 PM

When I was a girl, for instance, I was taught that women naturally had 1/2" of fat under their skin - but I imagine you modern girls are taught that any body fat at all is wrong...... I've been taught to be slim but muscular (i.e. the athletic look), not the "Kate Moss"/cocaine waif look. So far, staying as close to the athletic look as possible works for me. But I was also told at one time or another also that it's "normal" having a bit of fat, especially if you are planning to be bearing children in the future. (I remembered this one Japanese anime I've watched where a prospective MIL measures the wideness of the hips to deem whether it's wide enough to have her grandchildren. Of course, this embarasses the heck out of the son.) :lol:

Agreed that the best course of action is working w/the test chair to avoid testing when this judge shows up. Of course, in my case, I over-prepare for tests anyway, so that nerves will knock down to "barely passing."

Alexa

03-24-2004, 12:50 PM

The trouble is, most women are now expected to be about 20 lbs underweight! At least, compared to 45 or so years ago. Fashions change, and so do women's figures - just look at any pictures of models in the 1920s, 40s, 60s, 80s and today. We might like to think that current medical thinking tells us all there is to be known, but that, too, changes dramatically every so often as new discoveries are made!

When I was a girl, for instance, I was taught that women naturally had 1/2" of fat under their skin - but I imagine you modern girls are taught that any body fat at all is wrong......

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that Peaches was not saying that a person needs to look like Calista Flockhart to be healthy. She was literally talking about the 20 extra pounds that many people carry that are above and beyond the weight that is healthy for your height--or your BMI.

I do think that some of the posts in this thread were too preachy because we all know noone really chooses to be overweight, and many of those people fight to lose it to no avail.

So, taking the middle of the line approach, I do think we have become too casual about obesity because it is a huge health concern. And I think it is important to distinguish between having some curves and being overweight. But on the other hand I completely understand how difficult and frustrating it can be to be overweight and how hard it is to take it off. So, I think there needs to be more sensitivity to the issue. Thin people should not assume that it is easy to get rid of this excess weight or that the person wants to be overweight. They should also realize that many overweight people do lead healthy lifestyles but have trouble getting their weight down to the recommended levels.

On the original subject, I think it was wrong for a judge to make comments about weight.

dobiesk8r

03-24-2004, 12:52 PM

peaches

03-24-2004, 01:05 PM

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that Peaches was not saying that a person needs to look like Calista Flockhart to be healthy. She was literally talking about the 20 extra pounds that many people carry that are above and beyond the weight that is healthy for your height--or your BMI.

That's exactly what I meant.

passion

03-24-2004, 02:13 PM

sonora

03-24-2004, 02:26 PM

A couple of posters to this thread have mentioned that they wished they had gotten feedback from judges(not on weight, which I think should be taboo) but in general.

Judges are not supposed to offer unsolicited criticism but may offer unsolicited praise. If you would like a judge's feedback on your test or competitive program all you have to do is ask.

Nicely and politely, of course, and be preapred to listen, not argue about your result.

Just the older skater, or younger skater with coach, should do this. Parents should try to resist the temptation!

fadedstardust

03-24-2004, 04:16 PM

I think the point of all this, though...is that the judge didn't say "Lose weight or you'll never pass", the original poster admitted herself that she skidded on her 3 turns. As a test-taker, I personally do not understand why anyone would go ahead and test for something they KNOW they have problems with. Especially moves...there's no forgiving skids and the like in moves! Why not fix them before taking the test? If the test had been done perfectly, then the poster would have passed. Now if the test had been perfect and she still had NOT passed, then and only then would it be fair to put in a complaint. But...this judge didn't say "I didn't pass you cause you're fat", she offered her advice. And it's a worthwhile one. Maybe not for the 3-turns, but as a judge, she has a right to advise test takers on what will get them further. She didn't insult anyone, yes, I do believe she let the bitterness of her own struggles with weight seep through her dialogue...but everyone's own experiences will taint one's thoughts about a certain situation...that's the human way. I think that if you are going to be in a performance sport, you should be ready for things like this. Otherwise, don't test. You are testing for people, people who have to watch and judge you, and they are telling you what needs to improve, which is your weight. That's the general idea here: they judge you, you fix it. If you don't like the concept, there's PLENTY of skating that can be done without being judged, especially in ISI, where you can actually pass your tests with your coach, and no judges.

I've had weight problems in the past, so I actually DO know that it's very hard, and I'm not blaming the poster for being overweight, or even for being okay with being overweight. I'm just saying that when you join the USFSA, you become part of an organization that indeed stands for certain things that might not be politically correct, but they are there nonetheless. And one thing, is yes, an overweight skater will get held down, they'll get told to lose the extra pounds, and that's the USFSA. You don't see a SINGLE even slightly overweight skater on tv, ever, do you? It's not just coincidence. That's the organization you joined, and if you aren't happy with what they believe in (and I don't blame you) then find another. ISI, for example, doesn't give a flying crap about weight. It's a completely different track. Recreational, whereas USFSA is definitely competition oriented. And if you're gonna seriously compete, then you need to get your weight down. If you wanna do this for fun, join the organization made for it. I love the USFSA and I really don't think they are so out of line to expect fit skaters...body line and presentation does count for a lot, just as in dance and other performance sports/arts where your body is your instrument. But it's not for everyone, it's not fair, however, to blame the messengers of the system you joined for following their own guidelines.

-FadedStardust

sonora

03-24-2004, 06:32 PM

The passing standard for the Pre Juvenile Moves is not perfection.

SkateGuard

03-24-2004, 07:34 PM

1. quarkiki, you're right...not all asthmatics are obese. I have a close friend who is 5'2", 100 lbs, a choreographer, and an allergy-induced asthmatic. However, she hasn't had an attack in years, and I can't remember the last time she used her inhaler. I have another friend who has noticed that her asthma attacks have been greatly reduced when she gave up gluten, dairy, and sugar, so I have to believe that asthma is related to diet. Since my family is living proof that diet is related to obesity, I made that connection. My mom is absolutely beautiful, probably the fittest person over 55 I know. Her much younger sisters, who are junk food junkies, are constantly having health problems. One is overweight and the other is so obese that the doctor has told her that she will die if she doesn't lose weight. Ironically, when my mom has goaded her obese sister into eating more healthy, a lot of her health problems magically disappear. Hmmm. Same genes, different health profiles. Go figure.

2. sonora, ITA, big time. Adult Mids was full of strangely judged events. Look up the results of the Championship events. Both masters (lots of mistakes) and gold ladies (everyone skated well) were difficult events to judge, and the ordinals were everywhere. Feedback is necessary, especially if you end up 5th or 6th in those events. Asking a judge for feedback can make the difference between qualifying and not qualifying. And I agree, don't argue with a judge. I have been able to justify every placement I have received in skating, thanks to a wonderful friend and competitor who happens to also be a judge.

3. A lot of you say that nothing should be said, that no complaint should be made. I agree that the judge felt s/he was well-intentioned, but how many well-intentioned comments are coming from that judge? Has this judge also made that comment to kids, or was it something that judge would only do to adults? My concern is not morgan, who sounds like she is upset but not devastated by the remark, which is what I expect from a middle-aged adult. A teenager, however, doesn't have the maturity and wisdom that morgan has, and similar comments could have a devastating effect.

Erin

fadedstardust

03-24-2004, 07:43 PM

Sonora, maybe not perfection...but not scratching or scraping on 3-turns isn't being perfect. It's just doing the move correctly. In pre-juv, one should be able to do a good 3-turn.

-FadedStardust

jazzpants

03-24-2004, 08:34 PM

morgan: What does your coach say you're doing that causes your back 3's to skid?

sk8er1964

03-24-2004, 08:41 PM

I'm just saying that when you join the USFSA, you become part of an organization that indeed stands for certain things that might not be politically correct, but they are there nonetheless. And one thing, is yes, an overweight skater will get held down, they'll get told to lose the extra pounds, and that's the USFSA.

(snip)

And if you're gonna seriously compete, then you need to get your weight down.

-FadedStardust

I qualified for Adult Nationals last weekend. I am a serious adult skater and competitor. I don't think that anyone can claim that I am anywhere near thin.

fadedstardust

03-24-2004, 09:16 PM

Congratulations, that's awesome! Adults get held down less than kids because of weight, from what I've been told, because *most* judges understand adults have been through pregnancies and the like, and that the metabolism isn't as high. But they still do get prejudiced so you must have your elements very well. No one will get completely denied something, especially in adult division, solely on weight. But if it's a toss up, I do believe it'll tip the scales, no pun intended.

Most of the judges that judge adult tests also judge regular kids and sometimes, they can't really draw the difference between the two, as was discussed in the first MITF thread. Plus, I'm not clear on this part at all, but Morgan said she was doing Pre-Juv moves, right? Not adult Silver or whatever, which would mean she took the regular track test, which woud definitely mean the weight emphasis would be present, and the judges would be tougher because it would be regular track standards. Maybe I got this part wrong. Either way though, I do believe that if the 3-turns had been better, this would not even be an issue. I'm just saying the competitive skating world, because of its performance aspect, does stress trim bodies, it's a matter of who happens to be judging you and what they think appearance plays in this sport. You'll find a lot of the judges find that it's a lot, and I'm pretty sure our federation would agree, and that transpires in a lot of results that turn up. I'm just saying that right or wrong, I highly doubt we'll change it anytime soon, so either it's something you can live with, or it isn't.

Good luck to you at AN!

-FadedStardust

dani

03-25-2004, 06:01 AM

3. A lot of you say that nothing should be said, that no complaint should be made.

I was one of the people who suggested a complaint may be counter productive. My reason had nothing to do with whether a complaint was justified, just that it could hurt Morgan on a later test. Not that it should, or even would, but why take that chance?

Hugs!
Danielle

flippet

03-25-2004, 08:17 AM

I highly doubt we'll change it anytime soon, so either it's something you can live with, or it isn't.

So then, we shouldn't even try to change something that is wrong?

I think a lot of us realize that making some kind of formal complaint -- or even not, but just mentioning it to someone in charge -- will probably not elicit change, especially immediately. The point is that you don't just let something like that go completely unmentioned. It lets this woman get away with her comments, and she may do it again. What 'complaining' does is raise a flag, so that if it happens again and is reported, then people have background to go on. That's all.

If I were morgan, I'd definitely say something, because especially as an adult, there's no reason to cower because saying something might affect future tests or results. If it does--then that's wrong too, and that also needs to be spoken against.

jenlyon60

03-25-2004, 08:55 AM

I think perhaps a polite note to the test chair stating something along the lines of...

"After I tested my XXX (Pre-Juv MITF) and got my results, one of the judges on my panel approached me and made the following comments concerning my appearance and weight. ...keep the description purely factual, no emotion (which is very difficult when dealing with such an issue)... I do not know if other test candidates have had similar experiences with this judge or other judges, but I found it very unsettling, and wished to report it to you. I understand that your options are limited, but ...... Should I experience a re-occurence of comments of this nature from the same individual in the future, I will strongly consider filing a formal complaint to the Regional Vice-Chair for Judges."

Comments? (As I run, duck and hide....)

peaches

03-25-2004, 09:26 AM

You don't see a SINGLE even slightly overweight skater on tv, ever, do you? It's not just coincidence. That's the organization you joined, and if you aren't happy with what they believe in (and I don't blame you) then find another. ISI, for example, doesn't give a flying crap about weight. It's a completely different track. Recreational, whereas USFSA is definitely competition oriented. And if you're gonna seriously compete, then you need to get your weight down. If you wanna do this for fun, join the organization made for it. I love the USFSA and I really don't think they are so out of line to expect fit skaters...body line and presentation does count for a lot, just as in dance and other performance sports/arts where your body is your instrument. But it's not for everyone, it's not fair, however, to blame the messengers of the system you joined for following their own guidelines.

-FadedStardust

I agree. I'll also go so far as to say that adult skaters are constantly complaining that they're not taken seriously by the USFS. Well, IMO, if one wants to be taken seriously as an athlete, then one should take more care about one's appearance and attempt to look more like an athlete. Athletes don't typically have 20 extra pounds flapping around, rolls of fat around their waists, back fat, huge thighs, etc.

I'm not an advocate for being underweight, but the vast majority of adult skaters I see are certainly carrying more weight than is healthy. I think if skaters want to be taken seriously then they should make more effort to look the part of a fit , not skinny, fit, person who takes their sport seriously. If they're not willing to do that much then I can see why the USFS sort blows the adults off.

jenlyon60

03-25-2004, 09:38 AM

Alexa

03-25-2004, 10:06 AM

Let me share an unpleasant secret with you...

That extra 5-10 pounds that was easy to lose at age 15, becomes a LOT harder to lose after age 30, and even harder after age 40. The metabolism just plain slows down. (Something I jokingly remind my sister of, every time she comments about her weight loss efforts....)

Add to that the fact that most of us adults get about 1/3 of the ice and exercise time of someone under age 21... I am lucky if in any given week, I can get more than 4-5 hours of ice time or other gym time, and I'm probably not alone in the adult category in this regard. Compare this to the teens at the rink who skate 10-15 hours per week.

Don't assume that we are CHOOSING to be overweight.

I totally agree.

Peaches, as you know I agree with you on the importance of health, and I think we all understand that it can be unhealthy to be overweight. But I really think you are trying to simplify an issue that is not simple.

As Jen and many others have explained, a person does not choose to be overweight. And you cannot assume that an overweight person is not making an effort to be healthy or lose the weight. Many of them are. But it is very difficult to do, especially as you get older.

There is no reason for an overweight person to hold off on all activities until they are thin. Taking up skating is a fun activity and the exercise can help a person with their weight loss goals. Life is not only meant to be lived by those that have a BMI of 25 or less. Noone will deny that they would prefer to be at a healthy weight, but that does not mean they should be denied success in their activities just because they are overweight.

You may be a thin person that has never dealt with weight gain, and if so, good for you. That would be wonderful. Or maybe you have and you lost the weight. That is great too. But don't assume that it is easy for everyone to lose the extra weight. Because for many people it is not, no matter how hard they try.

Skatewind

03-25-2004, 10:15 AM

3. A lot of you say that nothing should be said, that no complaint should be made. I agree that the judge felt s/he was well-intentioned, but how many well-intentioned comments are coming from that judge? Has this judge also made that comment to kids, or was it something that judge would only do to adults? My concern is not morgan, who sounds like she is upset but not devastated by the remark, which is what I expect from a middle-aged adult. A teenager, however, doesn't have the maturity and wisdom that morgan has, and similar comments could have a devastating effect.
It's not really up to this skater to speculate about what this judge is saying to teenagers. The skater should focus on resolving the problem regarding her own situation if she found it truly that offensive, not second guessing the judge's other actions when she does not know.

Personally, I would have said something to the judge immediately & left it at that. Judges can have opinions, but the problem is that she apparently provided an unsolicited one. It did not affect the judging of the test, which was failed because the elements had technical problems. That is not the type of situation that screams out for a "take no prisoners" approach, although I do see how reinforcing the idea to avoid giving unsolicited feedback would be helpful.

I have been on the receiving end of such remarks numerous times. One time I had a parent who needed a last minute permission letter. And I do mean last minute, as in calling me at work wanting me to go late to a scheduled meeting to complete the form RIGHT NOW & fax it to her because she wanted to take it to the post office. When I told her I would have to send it as soon as I returned from my meeting, her response was "Any idiot should be able to take care of something like this right away". I suggested to her if that's the case, maybe in future she would agree to be the idiot who could serve & I would gladly make sure I planned my events in advance so I could give her more than 5 minutes notice if I needed help with forms. She got the message loud & clear. I followed up later by explaining that unpaid club work gets done before, after or in-between (but not instead of ) paid jobs & gave a couple suggestions to help her get her forms done earlier next time. It took care of the problem, & there was no written complaint to the club or USFSA needed. Sometimes people simply don't think about the other side of the situation & when it's pointed out to them they do make the effort to understand.

flo

03-25-2004, 10:53 AM

peaches

03-25-2004, 11:55 AM

Fadedstardust and peaches:

As far as "If you want to have fun, then join the organization made for it"

That's the difference in adult and kid skaters. We adults have the ability to welcome all, and allow all to enjoy the sport at whatever level they choose. And for:

"the vast majority of adult skaters I see are certainly carrying more weight than is healthy. I think if skaters want to be taken seriously then they should make more effort to look the part of a fit .."

Perhaps you should open your eyes a bit wider. What do you think they are doing out there? They're not home eating chocolates and watching skating - they are out there working! How do you know those you don't consider "serious" have not already lost wt. and are in better shape than when they began?

It's not the job of a judge or anyone else to consider what kind of efforts are being made to be more fit. What matters is what they see and if they see an unfit skater, then it's an unfit skater, nothing can change that. If a person is putting themselves out there to be judged, then expect some people to take note of whether or not a skater is fit, fat, or whatever. If they don't want anyone to notice their weight then they shouldn't be in a subjective sport where weight is an issue, they should pick out a nice bowling ball or golf club. ;) If a fat skater is going to force others to look at them then it's to be expected that someone, at some time, will make comments about the issue. Is it right? Not necessarily. But it is a fact.

What I see and hear, often, from adult skaters is the old "I've had babies", "I've always been big", "I'm over 40", "My metabolism has slowed down".

And I say to them: You had babies? When? Because unless it was in the last year, pregnancy fat is not an excuse.

Just because you've always been big, doesn't mean you have to stay that way. Statistically speaking the percentage of people with legit genetic disorders that cause them to be overweight is very, very small, so unless you've got one of those, you can lose weight.

Over 40? So that means you might have to try a little harder to lose, doesn't mean you can't.

Metabolism? Same thing, try harder. The more you excercise, the more your metabolism will speed up.

People have been fooled into believing that they have to look the way they do, when that is simply not the case. So it might take a little more effort. Make it. Don't settle.

I had an aunt who, in her 40's, decided she'd had it with being overweight. She consulted her doctor, thought he might recommend a diet to help her. He told her, yes, you're overweight, but you've had 3 kids, you're over 40, cut yourself some slack. She ditched that doctor, stopped on the way home and bought some running shoes, threw out all the junk food, lost the weight and never looked back. She's 67 and has maintained her weight for 25 years. Still runs 5 miles a day. She didn't settle for the old excuses and neither should anyone else. Have more respect for yourself than that.

And, Flo, if adult skaters welcome all, and a lot of them are unfit and overweight, then expect the USFS to not take them seriously as athletes.

fadedstardust

03-25-2004, 06:27 PM

Peaches, I agree with your entire post. Pretty much what I wanted to say but I don't think I would have managed to hit all those points as well as you did, well done.

I'd like to add some things: I'm not telling adults, overweight or not, not to skate! I'm saying if you're not happy with USFSA, then go somewhere else. It's not like you HAVE to stay in USFSA cause they govern the United States "section" of the Olympics. Why does it matter which organization you choose? Shouldn't you have one more catered to your goals? And if you do want to be a part of the "more serious" organization, then...how can you expect them to cut you ALL this slack and still treat you as equals?

Kids have to pass those tests perfectly (or almost), otherwise they are failed, and this is truer the harder the tests go. They DO need to be near perfect, and there's no reason they should expect to pass if they aren't, anyway. I looked at the adult test standard. I know they aren't always followed, but I can't believe you were all complaining about the fact that not every judge honors it!! You're saying you want judges to cut you some slack, to expect mediocre work (because I'm sorry, but the passing criteria for the adult track moves ARE mediocre...put your foot down between 3 turns on the line? Well if you could do that, anyone could do them, what's even the point?) so you're complaining that they don't cut you MORE slack on tests, that they don't pass you when your stuff is subpar, and then you complain that the USFSA views adults as bad skaters. Well, you can't pass the tests the way they were meant to be passed, and you're asking to pass anyway instead of just working more (and I don't care if you don't have the time, if you wanna test, then make the time, or let it take longer, but don't go in with crap edges and a bunch of excuses and think it's worth anything), of course the USFSA isn't gonna take that seriously. And so on TOP of that, even if the USFSA, and really, the ISU, stresses fit bodies, you also expect them to tolerate the extra weight because you're having a hard time losing it? Well, it's not their problem! You pay for a judge to come to your rink, they come, you say "Okay, judge me" and they do and you're not happy with it. So...USFSA, ISI, whatever, just don't test then. Don't compete. Just skate "for fun". If you do want to compete, then you should strive harder for the same standard as the REST of the USFSA's athletes. We all bust our butts getting those tests perfect, getting rid of the extra weight, and just because you're a little older you should be cut all this slack and still be treated as equals? That's crap. If you wanna be treated as equals, then act as equals and don't feel like the USFSA owes you anything, because it doesn't. Work hard and maybe they'll respect you. That's how the rest of us have always done it, why is it that just because you're an adult you feel you instantly deserve the respect for not lifting so much as a little finger? Maybe you shouldn't be expected to do triple jumps (although they've been done at AN before), but...moves? Everyone who can skate can do them. If you're not well enough physically to do moves, you probably should pick a less high impact sport. So why a different passing standard? Why can adult competitors carry an extra 20 or even 5 pounds, when no one else can? Because it's harder? Oh please. Why don't I go to Worlds next year and compete with all double jumps and say I can't do any triples cause they're harder for me because I have back problems (which I do, even though I'm young)? I'll be LAUGHED at. God, I'd laugh at myself.

I'm done now, and this is nothing personal against anyone here, I actually enjoy debating with everybody, this is just general commenting in regard of this entire situation, per se. This just all really rubs me the wrong way. Bottom line: you want to be treated equally, then accept the same conditions as us all, which includes being trim and nailing your tests perfectly. You want special treatment, then fine, here it is, but expect to be treated below the level of USFSA's other athletes, because after all, that's what you asked for. You can't have it all.

-FadedStardust

vesperholly

03-25-2004, 07:34 PM

So why a different passing standard? Why can adult competitors carry an extra 20 or even 5 pounds, when no one else can? Because it's harder? Oh please. Why don't I go to Worlds next year and compete with all double jumps and say I can't do any triples cause they're harder for me because I have back problems (which I do, even though I'm young)? I'll be LAUGHED at. God, I'd laugh at myself.

Okay, this thread has gotten rather ridiculous. You (collective) seem to have completely missed or lost the entire point of adult skating, which is:

ADULT SKATERS ARE NOT CHILD SKATERS.

DancinDiva

03-25-2004, 07:43 PM

I realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some of you are being downright ridiculous. There IS a difference between standard testing and Adult testing. Even my coach, who is well respected and well known among skaters, parents, and judges, admits that. He knows that we, having spouses, children, and jobs, or some combination of those, simply cannot spend as many hours at the rink as the children do. And he realizes that adults do not have the same bodies as children do. That does not mean that people like peaches and fadedstardust should be telling us not to test. I resent the comment about us wanting to pass "without lifting a finger." Let me tell you, we work very hard. We do not expect to be passed on sub-par elements just because we have a few extra pounds, or bad backs, or children at home that we need to care for instead of spending 20+ hours a week at the rink. We expect to be judged fairly, to be passed when our moves are done correctly (and just so you know, I do not test my moves until they are good enough to pass on the standard track, even though I test adult track, and my coach expects this of all his adult skaters), and to be failed if we screw up. But we shouldn't have to now worry that a judge is going to mark us down for not having the same body type as the little kids. I think that maybe some people should wait until they, too, are mature adults (and I mean physically here, I'm not calling anyone mentally immature) before they pass judgement on those of us who are testing as adults. Just my opinion.

Elsy2

03-25-2004, 08:49 PM

Peaches, ... I looked at the adult test standard. I know they aren't always followed, but I can't believe you were all complaining about the fact that not every judge honors it!! You're saying you want judges to cut you some slack, to expect mediocre work (because I'm sorry, but the passing criteria for the adult track moves ARE mediocre...put your foot down between 3 turns on the line? Well if you could do that, anyone could do them, what's even the point?) so you're complaining that they don't cut you MORE slack on tests, that they don't pass you when your stuff is subpar, and then you complain that the USFSA views adults as bad skaters. Well, you can't pass the tests the way they were meant to be passed, and you're asking to pass anyway instead of just working more -FadedStardust

This is some rant.....my comment is, it doesn't matter if you think adult test standards are mediocre, those are the standards that were set up by the USFSA. If their intent was for adults to be judged by a lower standard, then judges should be aware of those standards, and they should be clearly stated in the rulebook.

I personally agree that certain moves should not have the allowances stated, (putting a foot down between 3-turns) but I didn't make the rules.

fadedstardust

03-25-2004, 08:56 PM

Okay, this thread has gotten rather ridiculous. You (collective) seem to have completely missed or lost the entire point of adult skating, which is:

ADULT SKATERS ARE NOT CHILD SKATERS.

Exactly my point. But there was a whole argument that the judge should be stopped because while an adult could handle the comment, a child couldn't. Maybe the judge treats adults and children differently because they are *not the same*. You all admit that so you should probably not expect to be treated in the same way as child skaters, and yes, you should ideally be, as adults, capable of making and sticking to a diet plan that works for you and allows you to lead a healthy lifestyle, and also be able to take constructive criticism if it (or anything else worth commenting on) isn't working. Either there's truth to the comments and you try to make efforts, or there's not and you dismiss it without needing to make a scene to the test chair of a pre-juv test for a judge who just told you what they saw and felt you needed to change to suceed any further. An adult (ie: grown up and mature) skater shouldn't react like that to such a yes, benign comment. I didn't hear anyone claim the judge to say something like "you're a fat cow, quit now before we all laugh" or something ridiculously insulting like that. If the tester feels the need to report what was said, then it did, in some basic way, bother her, which suggests that maybe, and I do place emphasis on the maybe because I don't know her at all, the judge's comments were not so uneeded after all. Up to her whether she follows through with the advice or not, but if it's a valid comment, there's really nothing worth reporting, especially in a test setting where all that was done was judge. I truly believe that if the judge had not seen potential in the tester, she would not have even bothered to make such comments, so in a very backwards way, it's actually a compliment, seriously.

And I've said that if she was failed because of weight, then yes, it should very much be dealt with. But I don't think that's what happened here, which is I why I take the weight issue separately from the test. No one should be failed because of extra weight. But it will eventually hold people down in presentation marks for comps, and that's generally what people are testing for, so the judge felt the need to warn the tester. I completely agree that the wording was wrong, but I don't think the judge meant it as an insult, especially in the way she showed the tester her OWN weight problem, sort of a way of leveling herself down before dispensing the "advice", saying...I'm with you, I'm not trying to be condescending. The end from my end...I think the beauty of forums is dispensing opinions, maybe considering some new point of view, but most likely, in the end, being able to agree to disagree. :)

-FadedStardust

peaches

03-25-2004, 10:08 PM

But we shouldn't have to now worry that a judge is going to mark us down for not having the same body type as the little kids. I think that maybe some people should wait until they, too, are mature adults (and I mean physically here, I'm not calling anyone mentally immature) before they pass judgement on those of us who are testing as adults. Just my opinion.

There's a really big difference between being fit and proper weight for your height and having the body of a child. I'm a small person, but by no means have the body of a child. Am I within what is considered healthy weight for my height? Yes. And that's all I'm suggesting for anyone else. NOT that anyone try to have a childlike body.

FYI - I am a mature adult, and also a coach.

twokidsskatemom

03-25-2004, 10:13 PM

sk8er1964

03-25-2004, 10:33 PM

I am, quite frankly, amazed at the posts by fadedstardust and peaches. I'd like to make a few comments - I hope they are common sense comments - about skating.

First, your body size has nothing to do with your ability to do moves in the field. Technique does, and your technique may or may not be effrected by your weight, but weight in and of itself does not.

Second, extreme lack of body fat is also very unhealthy. Shoulder bones and hip bones jutting out is a sign of an unhealthy lifestyle, the same as an excess of body fat. However, in skating, this seems to be accepted. Is it better to stick your finger down your throat to make yourself stay thin? I don't think so. I'm not saying that fadedstardust and peaches are advocating that practice, but attitudes like theirs, IMO, contribute to that happening - and in skating it happens all of the time.

Third, not all skaters are in the sport to make the Olympics. A majority are in the sport to challenge themselves, to improve themselves, and to enjoy healthy friendships with people who are interested in the same sport. (Including USFSA membership.) There should be no correlation between testing and competing, because they are two different goals. The whole point of skating should be to be happy with yourself, not to yearn to be a perfect ice princess. Should adults get extra special treatment when taking kids tests? Absolutely not. Should overweight adults (and kids) get negative treatment on tests just because of their weight? Absolutely not.

Finally, before you make judgments on other people, you should walk a mile in their shoes. Maybe there are other reasons for someone to carry extra weight besides a lack of self control. It might be medical. It might be those few extra childbirth pounds. It might be genetics. It might be anything. What is the overweight person supposed to do? Hide in a closet until the weight somehow miraculously comes off?

Instead of slamming skaters.....I have a better idea. Why don't we instead support our fellow skaters (kids and adults) who are doing what they love, making themselves more fit every time they step foot on the ice, and challenging themselves? Most of the skaters I know fit into that category - that's what makes skating fun.

fadedstardust

03-26-2004, 01:18 AM

I am, quite frankly, amazed at the posts by fadedstardust and peaches...

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in your post, which shows how much you're not getting what I'm saying.

1. There's a difference between being 20 lbs overweight and being skin and bones. Also, the poster said she was not a dieter, so she isn't trying to lose the excess weight, which is FINE. It's absolutely fine, but then, don't complain that people are suggesting for you to lose it, this *is* a performance sport, and the fact that her body would be better off without those pounds was admitted by the poster when she called herself overweight. She didn't say "I'm 5'9 and 135 pounds but my coach thinks I should drop 10". THAT would be absolutely ridiculous. There's limits to everything and everyone is stretching them way too far to try to make a point, when the specifics of this particular debate is what is relevant. Every situation is different, I'm talking about this one and ones similar to it.

2. I said that in moves, weight shouldn't be the reason anyone is failed and that if her moves had been clean, she would have passed, or it would have been outrageously unfair and something should have been done, but she admitted it wasn't the case and that her 3's were flawed. If she'd done the test up to standards, that judge wouldn't have even made the comments about her weight affecting the scraping on the 3's (which is a load of crock, but nonetheless).

3. I personally do not get the point of testing if you're not going to compete, but I don't have to get it, everyone is different. I'm just saying the USFSA is a serious competing track, even for adults NOT Olympics bound, and that there is also testing and competing in ISI which doesn't give a crap about weight and doesn't have such strict tess passing standard because they are geared specifically for the person (kid or adult) who is only doing skating recreationally and I'm not sure why people are taking it as an insult or as completely bizzare that I suggest a recreational institution for a recreational skater. And if you are a serious adult competitor, then you should strive to be fit, not AS THIN as a 15 year old, but fit for yourself, which, when you call yourself a non-dieter with 20 extra pounds, is not exactly the right track. That's all. You want to be serious, then be serious about it all, body line and weight included. If you don't, I don't get the point of being in the USFSA when that's not what it was meant for. ISI has plenty of adults, too. That's all. I'm not sure why my posts are so offensive to so many, I really don't get it. I'm just being logical. I don't know any of you so I'm not picking anyone by name, and I'm not an Olympic champion myself, so this is clearly strictly my more or less unimportant opinion, but I don't happen to think it's so warped. Just like you wouldn't go get your motorcycle license if you wanted to be a race car driver...I'm just saying recreational skating is another organization, there's no reason to blame USFSA for upholding what it is and stands for. I'm done with this debate unless there's one little thing here or there, cause I'm just repeating myself. I just hate being misunderstood or misquoted, and I had to rehash one more time. Sorry for that.

-FadedStardust

jazzpants

03-26-2004, 01:33 AM

I think everyone missed a couple of points:

One and I think this is the MAIN point, is whether it's a judge's place to provide unsolicited advice on improving one's skating by losing weight! We all agree that it's a unanimously "NO!!!" (I think that the only person whose place in telling a person she's overweight is a fitness trainer or a doctor.)

Second, there are ALL SORTS of levels of fitness. It's NOT a black and white thing!!! Weight is just one of MANY factors of one's level of fitness!!! (And fitness is only one of MANY factors of one's potential to become a GREAT skater!!!)

Third... when I turned 32, my metabolism changed so that I could EASILY gain weight. It's not a gripe. It's just a fact of life. The only thing you could do is to "do the best with what God gave you."

Fourth... I'm relative fit (definitely off the "overweight" category as far as weight is concerned according to the BMI chart now.) And I used to be at 125 and 5' 3", which is quite skinny! But that doesn't make me a great skater with wonderful 3's. A coach teaching me the right TECHNIQUE did more than 10-fold what being at a perfect weight could do for me. And THAT'S why I asked morgan what her coach says about her "skid-3's" and what she suggested to fix.

Fifth... in order for a person to commit to losing weight and staying healthy, one must WANT to be fit bad enough!!! Anyone here *could* easily have told morgan that it wouldn't hurt to lose some weight, if not anything, for health reasons. But I think in the end, morgan needs to want to lose the weight bad enough that she will make a lifestyle change to lose the weight (b/c if you want a permanent loss, that's how you should do it.) She said that she's not a dieter, so she clearly says that she doesn't want it bad enough, so one should respect her wishes on that.

Edited to add: I got the impression that she felt her "retry" was justified b/c of the skid 3's. What she's complaining about is only the judge's comment about her weight, NOT her skating test!!!

Man, this weight talk is weighing me down!!! BLEECH!!! :(

TashaKat

03-26-2004, 02:34 AM

Wow! Is this thread a minefield or what? ;)

Anyway .... might as well wade in!

I DO think that the judge was inappropriate BUT, from reading what you have put I also believe that she was well intentioned. Personally, I would not report her but would have said to her, politely, that I didn't find her comments to be helpful.

I am a UK 16 (?what is that in US) and 5' 4" and, yes, I am overweight and, yes, to skate (or to do any sport) I SHOULD be lighter. I know that. To deny it would be decieving myself. I do think that 'ideally' I should be lighter than I am for the sake of my joints if nothing else BUT it's easier said than done. Being overweight hasn't stopped me from achieving test and competition success but I would have been more comfortable and looked better if I would have been two dress sizes smaller, I don't want to be a 'waif', I look awful if I lose too much weight .... though that particular state was a loooong time ago.

At the end of the day, though, we are adults and make our own decisions. I was once told by a coach (who was trying to poach me) that "I was too fat to skate anyway and she wouldn't want to teach me anyway unless I lost at least two stone" (this is after I refused to go to her as I believe that she was unprofessional in approaching me). Now that is insulting and inappropriate, she didn't have my best interests at heart, she didn't think that she was helping me, she was just being plain mean. I did report her and, after several other incidents, she was fired from the rink.

I am concerned, however, that kids are also being told that they're too big to skate. I have heard so many horror stories of kids being put on soup diets, told not to eat after 2 pm etc, this, in my opinion can only lead to problems!

Advice from a nutritionist, yes! Going to the Olympics and my jumps are being impeded by my weight? Then gently counsel me about it ..... but don't give me inappropriate, incorrect advice about weight and weight loss if you don't know what the hell you're talking about yourself!

morgan

03-26-2004, 08:22 AM

My, my, what a firestorm. As the original poster here, allow me to make a few comments and observations.

To the majority of adults who found the Judge's comments inappropriate, thank you for your observations. It is helpful for me to hear your reaction.

My back 3 turns tend to skid because of a timing issue; I don't always have the right down, up, down tempo and I am not always enough on my heel. To me, it is a solely question of technique and they are getting better. I have passed one judge on previous tests, so I am getting close.

I did report the incident in a factual manner to the Test Chair just so that she would know that I found the comments inappropriate. My suggestion was that she pass on to the Judge that I found her comments outside of the scope of commenting on a skating test. Somewhat to my surprise, the Test Chair circled the wagons around the Judge, saying that she was just trying to be helpful,appearance is part of skating and she was sorry if I was hurt by the comments, but the Judge was "old school" and believed that skating should be a way of life and that you should try to have your body in line with that.

All of which leads me to the issue I am currently grappling with: Whether or not it is fair game and appropriate for a skating judge to make unsolicited comments on an adult skater's (or any skater's weight). I think the answer is no. However, the Test Chair (and a minority of posters on this board) do not seem to completely agree with me.

If the answer is yes, commenting on weight is appropriate and boy, you better realize that weight appearance matters, even as an adult, then I believe that adult skaters are woefully unprepared for and uninformed about this. Part of the reason for my original post was that I was very surprised that the Judge would do this.

The responses of the young people on this board interest me, because they are furiously saying, hey, weight is an issue for us and it better be for you if you want to be part of the USFSA or be taken seriously, which I confess is an angle I had not previously considered. I view this sport from an adult angle and from the perspective of someone who began Basic Skills at age 40.

If weight comments ARE appropriate, either because of some rule that says so (can't seem to find such a rule, by the way) OR because, it's an appearance sport, stupid, everyone knows overweight people have poor body line/bad image, etc., then I think that some effort should be made to prepare many Adults who chose to test that they MAY hear a remark about their weight. If we know ahead of time, hey, the Judge may throw a few arrows your way because of your weight, well, we can chose to either lose weight or be prepared for these remarks.

I like to think that in a perfect world, the USFSA and/or fellow skaters would welcome Adults, attempt to accomodate their needs, understand that they are not child skaters and not put such an emphasis on weight, but, rather, on developing skating skills. Maybe we're not there yet; from some of the posts on this board, clearly, we are not.

Skatewind

03-26-2004, 10:25 AM

Several people here have already explained that it is not appropriate for a judge to approach skaters in order to provide unsolicited negative personal feedback. Whether or not the content of the feedback is about weight or another subject should make no difference. If the judge has technical feedback or feedback as it relates to your dress, music, etc in conjunction with the rules, the judge should be willing to write it on your test form if they want you to know it.

Apparently you were not aware of this before, although your coach certainly should have been to give you advice about it. Now you are aware, so use the information the next time to address the problem immediately when it occurs to prevent causing you so many worries or hurt feelings.

I also don't necessarily think the test chair was "circling the wagons", as you put it, simply because she attempted to explain what she likely thought were the judge's motivations based on her experiences with dealing with that particular judge. It sounds to me like this is an incident that could be easily worked out & everyone is somewhat overreacting to the situation including you.

flippet

03-26-2004, 10:26 AM

Well said, DancinDiva.

I think a couple of posters here have completely missed the fact that the OP was NOT complaining that she didn't pass, and did NOT think that she should have. She admitted that her skills needed work.

What the problem was, was that a judge A) assumed the problems with the skills were due to extra weight (which is patently NOT true), and B) the judge attributed feelings and attitudes about weight to the skater, that the skater did NOT feel.

All adult skaters want is to be judged on the skating. Not the appearance. Basing a score on someone's weight is like basing it on their skin color or hairstyle. It's wrong, and should not continue.

Edited to say that I didn't realize there was another page when I replied, and most of what I said had already been addressed.

Sk8r4Life

03-26-2004, 11:35 AM

FadedStardust~

Great posts! I agree with everything you have said, and I feel you have expressed your opinions very well, much better than I did when trying to say basically the same thing. I completely agree that this sport places a high value on appearance. Whether or not you agree with that, that's how it is. To change that would be changing the sport itself. Is there anyone here who can honestly say that when they watch others figure skating, they are looking only at the skating and they pay no attention to body line, costumes, grace, presence on the ice, overall appearance ? How can you watch skating and not focus on the skater's appearance and only the skating? Part of skating is appearance!

As for the gaining/losing weight issue. There is one simple fact about this: To gain weight, your calorie intake must be greater than the calories you burn, and to lose weight you must burn more calories than you eat. In a very small minority of overweight people, medical issues and genetics may play a role. But if you look back 30-40 years we had a much lower percentage of overweight people. Medical and genetic issues cannot account for the rapid rise in number of overweight people. It is simply impossible for something that is caused by genetics to grow this quickly. I think most people know that metabolism does tend to slow with age. That doesn't mean that you can't do anything about it. You just need to decrease your calorie input and increase output. I KNOW this is easier said than done. When I went to college, I didn't just gain the "Freshman 15", I gained the Freshman 25! 25 extra pounds on a 5'1" frame is a huge difference. I never took all of it off (although I was probably underweight before) but I did get about 15-20 off in less than a year. Yes, I was only 19 at the time so it was easier, but I realized that I had gained weight because I wasn't exercising at all and I was eating a lot more. Once I started eating normally and exercising again, the weight just came off. But this was a great lesson to me--I did NOT like being overweight! I had to buy bigger clothes, I didn't want to go hang out at the pool with my friends, I was generally miserable. It was enough to make me never want to gain weight again. Now when I feel like I have been eating a bit unhealthy, or when my waistband starts to get a little tight, I literally can't eat a lot--it makes me sick to my stomach. That's what I don't understand, is how people get overweight in the first place.

I know that some people are happy with themselves even if they are overweight. But if you are going to claim this, you have to be happy with ALL aspects of being overweight. You can't just say, "Well, I'm happy, I don't think I need to lose weight" and then turn around and say "It's so unfair, people are judging me because I'm overweight!" You can't eat your cake and have it too. It's the same with adult skating. You can't say, "I'm an adult skater, I want to be taken seriously just like young skaters are!" and then also say "It's so much harder to be an adult skater, why can't they give us a break? We're not kids!" Skating is a HARD sport! It's not easy for kids and it's not easy for adults either! IMO, that makes it even more fun! Overcoming a difficult obstacle provides a lot more satisfaction than completing an easy task. Why can't we all just appreciate skating for what it is and not try to change the sport we love?

flo

03-26-2004, 11:59 AM

Twokidsskatemom - Thanks!

Presentation is a factor in skating - but only one part of skating. Fortunately most judges and adult skaters understand this. If anyone is intersted in a beauty contest - perhaps you're in the wrong organization. The USFSA Adult program is not perfect, but it suits the rest of us, and we'll continue to work towards it's and our success.

flippet

03-26-2004, 12:24 PM

Is there anyone here who can honestly say that when they watch others figure skating, they are looking only at the skating and they pay no attention to body line, costumes, grace, presence on the ice, overall appearance ? How can you watch skating and not focus on the skater's appearance and only the skating? Part of skating is appearance!

Yes, I can honestly say that. I remember watching a skating special a few years ago (one that Pasha Grishuk was involved with, IIRC), and one of the numbers was a pair number by a pair of 'special' skaters--I believe they both had Down Syndrome. Many people with Down Syndrome are overweight, and these two were no exception. They had little 'grace' as is normally defined in skating, body line that might be considered 'poor', their costumes were nothing special, and from a distance, probably had no 'presence' either.

However, I enjoyed their skating as much, if not more, than the skating by the other participants, one of which was Alexei Yagudin. They were so happy to be there, and happy just to be skating. They also performed very well. So yes, I can focus on the skating, and not worry about what the outside appearance is. It doesn't matter one little bit.

Mrs Redboots

03-26-2004, 01:34 PM

I wonder whether it has occurred to the body fascists on this thread that many of us who are not as slim as once we were are actually skating because we have found, in this sport, a form of exercise we enjoy and want to do.

As you know, the only realistic way of losing weight long-term is to eat less and exercise more; but how many people take out gym memberships in January, go twice, then never again? Yet people go on skating, as often as they can, for years.

And yes, because we are in this sport, we do want to test ourselves against the levels agreed for our skill level and age (although here in the UK there is no such thing as an adult test - you take the same tests everybody else does, or not at all). And perhaps we enjoy, too, testing our skills against those of our peers in age and ability - the skating world is small enough that you often find yourself up against the same skaters, and it's fun to see who improves, who doesn't, and who improves but not as fast as everybody else!

Skating is a terrific means of keeping fit. I may be overweight by the standards of a 20-year-old, but for a 50-year-old I am well fit! As is my husband, who, in the unfair way men seem to be able to, has almost maintained his figure!

TashaKat

03-26-2004, 01:48 PM

As for the gaining/losing weight issue. There is one simple fact about this: To gain weight, your calorie intake must be greater than the calories you burn, and to lose weight you must burn more calories than you eat. In a very small minority of overweight people, medical issues and genetics may play a role .......... That's what I don't understand, is how people get overweight in the first place.

I know that some people are happy with themselves even if they are overweight. But if you are going to claim this, you have to be happy with ALL aspects of being overweight. You can't just say, "Well, I'm happy, I don't think I need to lose weight" and then turn around and say "It's so unfair, people are judging me because I'm overweight!" You can't eat your cake and have it too .............. Why can't we all just appreciate skating for what it is and not try to change the sport we love?

I think that the majority of us on here know that being overweight is more likely NOT to be a medical problem HOWEVER it can be very easy to gain weight in the first place for a variety of reasons whether it be psychological, eating on the run, being sedentary or whatever. The 'problem' is getting the weight off again, it's not as easy as doing a bit more exercise, I did an enormous amount of exercise but found it difficult to modify my diet just because I never used to have to worry about what I ate, I could eat enormous amounts of food and never put on weight (bring those days back!). Yes, it's my fault (although I initially put on 3 stone in 2 months when I was on steroids long term) but my lifestyle and my attitude towards food meant that I didn't lose much weight. I understand that but it didn't mean that I couldn't skate succesfully. What don't you understand? You said that you gained 25 pounds at college so you MUST understand how you got overweight!

Why do you feel that 'we' must change to be able to skate (at least that's how I interpreted your last line)? I find that more offensive than a well meaning but inappropriate judge! The beauty of skating is in the beauty of different types of skater, how boring would it be if everyone had the same vital statistics, same stature, same colour hair, same colour eyes? Yes, I would prefer to be slimmer, I would also prefer to have longer legs and be 15 years younger but why should I be criticised because I don't conform to the 'ideal' skating clone?

Alexa

03-26-2004, 01:52 PM

Now when I feel like I have been eating a bit unhealthy, or when my waistband starts to get a little tight, I literally can't eat a lot--it makes me sick to my stomach. That's what I don't understand, is how people get overweight in the first place.

Well, I am glad that your life has been so blessed and that at the ripe old age of 19 you lost the extra weight you put on and are now so wise that you don't understand how people get overweight in the first place.

All I have to say is that we all understand the components to gaining and losing weight, but I am in shock at the insensitivity that is taking place in this thread in regard to overweight people. I can see why people that are obese have such a difficult time having good self esteem when they have all of these "thin" people around them to tell them what failures they are.

I have said it before and I will say it again. You are simplifying an issue that is not simple.

And I am not saying all of this because I am extremely overweight. I, too, gained the freshman 20 when I was in college, and I, too, lost the weight relatively quickly when I resumed exercise and healthier eating habits.

But you know what? Things change, and although I kept my weight normal for a long time, I have recently gained some weight from medication I was taking and am now slightly overweight. Do I like it? No, I absolutely hate it. I am 10 years older than I was the last time I went through this and it is a lot harder to take off the extra weight. I can go for weeks and have healthy eating habits and exercise and not a pound moves off of the body.

All I am saying is that for all of you living in weight utopia and telling us weight can be controlled through diet and exercise, we get it and know our weight is our responsibility. But don't go through life being so shallow that you cannot have compassion or understanding for other people just because you are in some type of perfectness or know someone that achieved it.

Until you walk in someone's shoes you have no idea what they are going through and what their circumstances are.

jenlyon60

03-26-2004, 02:16 PM

Until you walk in someone's shoes you have no idea what they are going through and what their circumstances are.

THANK YOU!

Sk8r4Life

03-26-2004, 02:20 PM

Yes, it's my fault (although I initially put on 3 stone in 2 months when I was on steroids long term) but my lifestyle and my attitude towards food meant that I didn't lose much weight. I understand that but it didn't mean that I couldn't skate succesfully. What don't you understand? You said that you gained 25 pounds at college so you MUST understand how you got overweight!

That was exactly my point--I DO understand how I got overweight--it was from eating too much and not exercising enough! It's because of this understanding that I have been able to keep myself from becoming overweight again. Also, I never said that being overweight would prevent anyone from skating successfully, skillwise. But I do feel skating is also about presentation and appearance, and that being overweight will hold you back in these areas. You can still be a successful skater, but you have much more to overcome.

Why do you feel that 'we' must change to be able to skate (at least that's how I interpreted your last line)? I find that more offensive than a well meaning but inappropriate judge! The beauty of skating is in the beauty of different types of skater, how boring would it be if everyone had the same vital statistics, same stature, same colour hair, same colour eyes? Yes, I would prefer to be slimmer, I would also prefer to have longer legs and be 15 years younger but why should I be criticised because I don't conform to the 'ideal' skating clone?

I'm sorry I didn't explain that more clearly. I wasn't trying to say that skaters should change and all conform to some ideal. What I meant was that I love the sport of skating for what it is, and I don't want to see it change, and it seems like some posters do want it to change to a sport in the rules are easy, anyone who can stand up on skates can pass a test, and those who win the competitions may not look very good out there, but they have the required skills. I have gotten the feeling from some of these posts that people feel that skating is made to be too difficult for adults and adults shouldn't have to have the same rules/standards and adults should be cut some slack for not having skills up to par or maintaining the body of an athelete. I was trying to say that skating is skating no matter what your age, and the sport should be the same for all ages, not easier for us "old folks".

Sk8r4Life

03-26-2004, 02:28 PM

Well, I am glad that your life has been so blessed and that at the ripe old age of 19 you lost the extra weight you put on and are now so wise that you don't understand how people get overweight in the first place.

[snip]

Until you walk in someone's shoes you have no idea what they are going through and what their circumstances are.

Please take your own advice. Your first comment was mean-spirited and unnecessary. You don't know the circumstances of my situation either, and why I get so fed up with people making excuses for their weight. I certainly don't have a blessed life, but I have worked hard to attain skating goals and I have never made excuses when I didn't achieve my goals. I brought up that story about losing weight to try to show everyone that I HAVE been in those shoes (being overweight) and I was able to overcome it.

I would like to write more, but I am off to skating practice. I hope no one takes this reply in the wrong way, but it was hard to communicate without having more time to think it over.

Alexa

03-26-2004, 03:12 PM

Please take your own advice. Your first comment was mean-spirited and unnecessary. You don't know the circumstances of my situation either, and why I get so fed up with people making excuses for their weight. I certainly don't have a blessed life, but I have worked hard to attain skating goals and I have never made excuses when I didn't achieve my goals. I brought up that story about losing weight to try to show everyone that I HAVE been in those shoes (being overweight) and I was able to overcome it.

You are correct I have not walked in your shoes, and you are correct that my comment was what I will call sarcastic.

My only point is that if you are going to use a story of being previously overweight as a way to relate to those that are, you cannot assume everyone could lose the weight the exact same way you did. Or assume that there couldn't be other factors involved when it comes to someones weight.

That's all. Glad you can relate to being overweight, and I am glad you overcame it. Let's just stop the assumption that because one person did it or they know someone that did that it means everyone's situation is the same.

At this point, I don't know how else to say it. I just simply don't like to see people being all preachy about weight loss, as if overweight people do not have a clue as to why they are overweight or how to try to solve the problem. They do have a clue and often are trying to do something about it.

Skatewind

03-26-2004, 04:03 PM

Until you walk in someone's shoes you have no idea what they are going through and what their circumstances are.
Yes & it would be great for everyone with the "hang 'em high" attitude about the judges & test chairs to consider that idea too.

flippet

03-26-2004, 04:16 PM

What I meant was that I love the sport of skating for what it is, and I don't want to see it change, and it seems like some posters do want it to change to a sport in the rules are easy, I haven't seen this on this thread--at least, not until you brought it up. The original complaint was not about rules or making things easier at all.

anyone who can stand up on skates can pass a test,
Again, not seeing that. Adults want to pass according to the rules as well. If they're competing the main track, main track rules apply. If they're competing the adult track, then adult rules apply. It's not like any adult has any illusions that competing the adult track is going to take them to the Olympics, and give them an easy ride getting there.

and those who win the competitions may not look very good out there, but they have the required skills. WHOA. As long as a skater has the required skills, who gives a rat's behind what they look like???

Frankly, I think that Plushenko is terribly unattractive, both physically, and in skating posture. Yet somehow, it doesn't stop him from winning.

Don't look now, but your looks-ism (fatphobia, uglyphobia, age-ism, whatever) is showing.

twokidsskatemom

03-26-2004, 04:20 PM

TreSk8sAZ

03-26-2004, 04:46 PM

I've been reading this thread from the beginning, and had to wait awhile to form my opinions, especially since I am younger (almost 20).

One person (I'm sorry, I forgot who) said that they didn't understand testing USFS and not competeing. Although I do both, I'm also testing to get the recognition I will need when I become a coach down the road.

The other ideal that I think has been bothering me is that presentation marks take appearence into account as a lot of the mark. Presentation isn't just appearence. It's expression, flow, feeling the music, costumes, and yes, then appearence. But it's my belief that if someone has an appropriate costume for their body, whether they be somewhat overweight or not, and the costume goes along with the music they look much better than someone in a costume not made for their body type and that doesn't go with the music.

It's funny... I'm 5'11" and weigh around 160 (US lbs.). I'm fit, healthy, and skate at least six hours a week, plus running and other activities. Because I'm built with a larger frame, yes I do look like I weigh more. I've still never had a judge or my coach (who actually tells me not to lose any more weight) talk to me about it-- and I test standard track.

Morgan: Good luck with your tests and I hope that all works out well. Even if you get the same judge, do your best and forget about who's judging you. I know I have a phobia of one of the judges in our rink because of things she says in practices the week before I test, but once I get started I concentrate so much I forget she's there. Maybe the same will happen with you. Best wishes!

~Tre

Elsy2

03-26-2004, 06:23 PM

Ok I have a stupid ?
Does it say somewhere in the usfsa that adults must be a certain weight?
if not, then why is it an issue?
I think anything to get people skating is great !!!If you can do a move, then you can do a move.The op wasnt upset about the move but about the comment.

We arent talking about 13yos, or at least I hope we arent.Adults come in all shapes and sizes.I know some great looking ladies that arent skinny anymore.If they can pass based on doing the move right, I dont care what they look like.
I know since I hit 40, things have changed.no one wants to be overweight, but beauty is still in the eye on the beholder.

go skaters !!!!

No, weight is not addressed by the USFSA, and those of us adults who have competed know that sometimes the best program does win regardless of the appearance (weight-wise) of the competitor.

My first competition to my pre-bronze adult program was in Ann Arbor. As you know Michigan's competitions are well attended. I think we had a group of about nine. The winner was quite a bit overweight. Enough that you found it difficult to imagine being successful in skating at that weight, which was well over 25 lbs. over her ideal. But she had the best program, the most difficult combination jumps, and the best spins. I don't recall if she had straight "1's" across the board, but she probably did. The judges rewarded her skating. Period.

twokidsskatemom

03-26-2004, 06:51 PM

montanarose

03-26-2004, 09:51 PM

. . . the Judge was "old school" and believed that skating should be a way of life and that you should try to have your body in line with that.

Ah, skating as a way of life . . . what a lovely thought!

Gee, sorry to burst anyone's bubble but it's just soooooo inconvenient when life interferes with skating, as it tends to do when one is fifty- (or even forty-) something. When you're dealing with the death of three out of four elderly parents/parents-in-law and the ongoing decline and associated caretaking of the fourth. When you're struggling to manage what's left of your career, if you're lucky enough to still have one, or to deal with being outsourced, downsized, or whatever the latest buzzword might be. When you're dealing with your husband's nearly fatal illness and your own brush with cancer, and the mounting health problems that come with middle age (no matter how careful you've been with your lifestyle). When it's hard enough to gracefully accept the lines in your face, the gray in your hair, the ever-southward movement of your various body parts, the sagging of parts you never thought COULD sag (yes, it's true! -- you WILL eventually get wrinkles around your knees, ankles and elbows!), the hot flashes, the night sweats, and all the other assorted aches and pains to which aging flesh is heir to.

And this is even without having had kids, whom you may be struggling to put through college while simultaneously trying to prepare for your own retirement.

For many adult skaters, rather than skating being a way of life, skating is instead a way of trying to preserve at least some aspects of an earlier, possibility-filled life. For those who were athletes, it's a way to carry that part of ourselves forth. For those who never were, it's a way to experience, to however small a degree, what it feels like to achieve at least a modicum of athleticism. And for all of us, it's a way to keep our hearts pounding, our bones strong, our joints moving, our skin glowing and our muscles growing stronger. Not to mention just plain having fun at a time when fun is sometimes not all that easy to come by. It may not be, for us, "a way of life" but it can be a way of enjoying the life we have for as long as we have it.

Even at 56, I still get a great deal of joy by getting out there on the ice a few days each week, working on my wonky crossovers and 3-turns in my skating dress and tights -- I've stopped caring what people think and care more about what feels good to me. While my body may not be, as Morgan's judge expressed, "in line with skating being a way of life", my body is certainly a hell of a lot better than if it were sitting on the couch watching soap operas and eating bon-bons.

And I should add that I am blessed, blessed, blessed to have a wonderful coach who not only coaches a number of high-level kids and teen-agers but also takes her adult skating students' aspirations seriously and pushes us to be the best we can be.

End of middle-aged rant . . . :lol:

Ellen

Andie

03-26-2004, 10:08 PM

I'm sorry, that was pretty catty of her. Size and weight don't matter as much as inches (or centimeters).
In a few more days I'll be 19; I'm 5'4" and wear an 8-10 usually in ladies sizes (9-11 Juniors) and am ideal weight. No I'm not that thin, but not fat either (although some crazy people might think I am a little). Unlike some young skaters I've seen, I just have a prominent bust, thighs and rear. But that doesn't interfere with my skating - the only thing that interferes is if I have bad posture or am afraid of falling.

SkateGuard

03-26-2004, 10:46 PM

It's not really up to this skater to speculate about what this judge is saying to teenagers. The skater should focus on resolving the problem regarding her own situation if she found it truly that offensive, not second guessing the judge's other actions when she does not know.

BUT, I have nearly ended up in the hospital for anorexic behavior. (It was acid reflux, I hate nausea, when my stomach hurts, I don't eat, and last summer I was 5'4", 95 lbs.) It's scary to be that thin...I felt sick, like I was dying, every day. I cannot imagine doing that to myself because I thought I was "fat."

If a judge is giving "advice" that they shouldn't be giving in the first place to an adult skater who has no desires on being the next Michelle Kwan, I have to wonder what this judge is saying to the skaters who do dream of the Olympics. I'm not saying that morgan should start a ruckus at the next board meeting, but to discreetly ask a few questions, or even mention it to the club test chair in the sense of "I'm telling you this so that you are aware of it; I'm not complaining" would be a way of handling it without second guessing the judge's behavior to other skaters.

I have seen lots of body sizes in skating succeed in this sport. sk8er1964 had a beautiful program at Mids, and she's no anorexic waif, thank goodness. :) A national judge once told my coach that I have the perfect skater body, but I can't seem to beat that lady from Ann Arbor (if it's who I think it is...).

My point through this whole thing is simple: Judges shouldn't make comments about weight. Not adults. Not Michelle Kwan. Does anyone remember the whole Danielle Hartsell nonsense? When any judge makes a comment like that which has nothing to do with the skating on the ice, the judge does not know how that comment will be taken. And there are skaters who are probably willing to take extreme measures to please that judge, measures that could endanger their lives. So I wouldn't ignore that comment, nor would I confront the judge. I would be extremely discreet, mention it to trusted skaters, coaches, parents, or the test chair so that people are aware of the situation in case it happened to a skater who isn't as strong as morgan.

Erin
(who does see everyone's point, but has some up-close-and-personal experience with an eating disorder and would hate for someone else to go through that!)

LittleBitSk8er

03-27-2004, 12:27 AM

The judges rewarded her skating. Period.
Isnt that what is about :?? :)
I would rather see someone who is into skating skate than someone worried about weight.That is why we have 10 year old dieting that dont need to.
if its a sport, then it shouldnt be about looks.No other sport is about looks. its about how well you perform.
Yes, but unfortunately, football players are required to bulk up lift weights etc. Runners, basket ball players dancers are all put on diets in high school. Because they need to be quick and agile on their feet. Just look at the case in New Jersey right now where a girl is suing her basket ball coach for his comments about her weight. It is happening in all sports, all across the country. It is still happening and will continue to happen in every sport. I am very sad to say!http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d20716/14

twokidsskatemom

03-27-2004, 12:58 AM

Yes, but unfortunately, football players are required to bulk up lift weights etc. Runners, basket ball players dancers are all put on diets in high school. Because they need to be quick and agile on their feet. Just look at the case in New Jersey right now where a girl is suing her basket ball coach for his comments about her weight. It is happening in all sports, all across the country. It is still happening and will continue to happen in every sport. I am very sad to say!http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d20716/14
yes, but a touchdown is still counted, no matter if the player was 250 or 275.A hockey goal still counts, even if the player is a bit overweight.A homer is a homer, as long as the player gets to home before the ball does.You might not be able to perform as well, but I dont think someone would tell a 50yo hockey player, hey you cant win if you dont drop those 10 lbds.
I would hate to think that adults, who as someone said, are doing this for the love of the sport and for the excercise, would not pass atest or do well based on what they look like.
Its about the skating,not about the weight.At least to the older adults who are doing it.There isnt another sport where you might lose points or not pass a test based on weight or looks.Its all about the performance.

Aussie Willy

03-27-2004, 01:57 AM

I am horrified to read what happened to you. I would definately complain. It has nothing to do with your ability to do the test. And if you never thought your weight was a problem then it is not a problem.

However just as the judge thought she was giving you "kind" feedback, sounds like she needs some feedback too. She probably does not realise that what she said has hurt you (we are all susceptible to saying things we don't realise hurt people), but I definately think she should be told that the comments were not appropriate. She is probably used to dealing with kids, not adults and that is why she thought she could say those things.

I had a judge once say to me and the group that were testing that we were the worst lot of tests he ever saw but he was still passing us. I wish I had complained back then. However I did confront him and say "well if my test was so bad why did you pass me?"

Mrs Redboots

03-27-2004, 06:30 AM

I had a judge once say to me and the group that were testing that we were the worst lot of tests he ever saw but he was still passing us. I wish I had complained back then. However I did confront him and say "well if my test was so bad why did you pass me?"
A friend of mine once confronted a judge she knew, who said "I ignored it when you...." (I forget what the exact error was, now). And she said "I wish you hadn't; we are competing relatively seriously here, even though it's fun." I think that judge learnt his lesson - he doesn't over-reward, or over-ignore mistakes any more, but judges fairly based on what he sees. As do all the judges I know and am friendly with - they judge adults based on what they see on the day, and will also give you helpful feedback when you ask.

That's what it's all about, of course - doing the best you can at whatever level you reach, whether you are overweight and over-50, or a skinny thing of 16! At my rink, it's the overweight over-50s who are bringing home the international gold medals.......

passion

03-27-2004, 07:48 PM

fadedstardust

03-28-2004, 09:29 AM

What *is* the case with young skaters anyway? Is it really true that you're unlikely to succeed if you are overweight? (When I watch skating on tv, I don't ever recall seeing a fat skater). If two skaters skate equally well, will the one who has a skater's body win? And what is a skater's body anyway? (Is is short and small like Tara Lipinski/ Sasha Cohen/Mira Leung, or is it tall and lean like Jennifer Robinson)? My coach explained to me that the first group of skaters are "compact" skaters meaning that they are mostly mesomorphs, ie. muscle. The advantage to having a body like that is that they learn jumps and spins easier and faster. Jennifer Robinson is a person who has a ectomorphic body type. It takes the person longer to learn jumps and spins, but when they have learned it, they have the best looking line and can end up looking quite graceful. Then I asked about people who have endomorphic bodies (mostly fat). He said that there are not many out there, but having that type of body says nothing about the amount of muscle you have. So you can actually have very strong muscles and be able to pull of the jumps and spins well.

Can adults completely ignore the fact that we have chosen to participate in an aesthetic sport, much like ballet? What about young skaters?

I think you hit all the points. Technically, both the first body types you mentioned have shots, although it's tougher for longer limbed people to USE all their length and make nice lines. Once they DO though, it's beautiful (think Maria Butyrskaia). But yes the first group seems to be the one that wins most, whether that means it's ideal for skating is speculation, although it sure does seem that way. As far as why there aren't ANY and have never been fat elite skaters, other than because the ones who are were told to lose weight and suceeded or because they were held down too much because of their appearance and never made it to the top, no one will really ever know, we just know there's no such thing as a fat top ranked skater (or really a fat competitive skater in USFSA past maybe pre-juv).

CAN adults ignore the nature of this sport? I guess they have. I personally don't think they should, for their joints as well as for the people who watch them as well as for themselves, but...I think the adult programs are too young right now to really tell what direction they will go in. Some incidents hint the adult track will be selective about body shape, some don't. I think we'll know that answer in maybe ten more years, hah. I personally think on a lesser degree than the regular track, but still to a degree, the adult track should stress personal best fitness. It IS a sport after all, and the adult track is NOT the special Olympics. The people taking part in it are fully capable to take care of their bodies, unlike someone who has a mental illness, so the allowances should not be the same, and in the end, I think that if we do regularly accept overweight (15+ lbs) adults, whose joints and bones are already weaker than they used to be, to do the freestyle portion of skating, and even compete, the injuries are going to be astronomical in the long run. Skaters get injured, it's a known thing. Lean, light as a feather skaters get arthritis, ligament tears, everything really...from overuse of their body...well, if you do simpler jumps but are twice the body weight, I'd suspect the risks to be the same, or even doubled, for injury. And that's really not the path I want to see adults who are trying to enjoy a sport take. If it does turn out that way, I suspect that with time, more and more adults will figure it isn't worth the pain and the risks of long term injury or surgery. I think the issue with weight and adult skaters is much more a safety and health one than younger skaters, which is 50/50 for looks and health.

-FadedStardust

vesperholly

03-28-2004, 11:17 AM

CAN adults ignore the nature of this sport? I guess they have. I personally don't think they should, for their joints as well as for the people who watch them as well as for themselves, but...I think the adult programs are too young right now to really tell what direction they will go in. Some incidents hint the adult track will be selective about body shape, some don't. I think we'll know that answer in maybe ten more years, hah. I personally think on a lesser degree than the regular track, but still to a degree, the adult track should stress personal best fitness. It IS a sport after all, and the adult track is NOT the special Olympics.

I think you are completely missing the point. Any skating test track should stress personal best SKATING. Of course being in shape makes a better skater. You could go on and on about the optimal body shape. Of course little midgets like Tara Lipinski have an easier time rotating triples. But should that stop tall, long-limbed skaters like Jennifer Robinson and Carolina Kostner from learning triples? Likewise, just because it's theoretically "easier" for a size 2 to learn a three-turn, there's no reason it should stop a size 16 from learning it as well.

Skating is not just for those in shape. Everyone, big or small, can enjoy skating. Very few of us have the "ideal" body type for anything. The challenge is to work with your body type to achieve what you want out of skating. I know that I am overweight, and I know that it impedes my skating. But until I have finished losing the extra weight, what am I going to do, put my life on hold? Wrong. I don't think judges only look at weight all the time, because I won a competition this weekend over two much thinner skaters - one of whom did two lutzes (one with loop-loop) and two axel attempts to my one lutz-loop and no axels.

I am curious. Does it somehow offend you that adults get "easier" tests and "easier" Nationals? Methinks you doth protest too much, and I would like to know why.

fadedstardust

03-28-2004, 11:42 AM

I think you are completely missing the point. Any skating test track should stress personal best SKATING. Of course being in shape makes a better skater. You could go on and on about the optimal body shape. Of course little midgets like Tara Lipinski have an easier time rotating triples. But should that stop tall, long-limbed skaters like Jennifer Robinson and Carolina Kostner from learning triples? Likewise, just because it's theoretically "easier" for a size 2 to learn a three-turn, there's no reason it should stop a size 16 from learning it as well.

Skating is not just for those in shape. Everyone, big or small, can enjoy skating. Very few of us have the "ideal" body type for anything. The challenge is to work with your body type to achieve what you want out of skating. I know that I am overweight, and I know that it impedes my skating. But until I have finished losing the extra weight, what am I going to do, put my life on hold? Wrong. I don't think judges only look at weight all the time, because I won a competition this weekend over two much thinner skaters - one of whom did two lutzes (one with loop-loop) and two axel attempts to my one lutz-loop and no axels.

I am curious. Does it somehow offend you that adults get "easier" tests and "easier" Nationals? Methinks you doth protest too much, and I would like to know why.

It's not easier for a size 2 to learn a 3-turn than a size 16, or a size 45. Not at all. Moves are equally hard for any and every size. I've coached some beginning adults before and let me tell you size has NOTHING to do with ease of doing moves. I'm talking about freestyle. Jumping. Jumping is bad when you are heavier cause it HURTS you. That's what I'm saying. Puts pressure on joints and bones, and the older you get, the more your joints and bones are already getting weaker, without needing the extra pressure. It's a health concern. If you don't get that I can't help you conprehend it. It's not about "ideal body size", it's about thinking you CAN do freestyle at any body shape, when it's simply a hazard to you. Yeah, I'd rather watch a fit skater than someone sticking out of their tights, and so would most judges, but it's not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about s-a-f-e-t-y.

And no, I'm not "offended" considering I'm not in the adult track and won't ever be, I'm too young and I'm doing well in regular track anyway, so it doesn't do anything to me personally. This board is about voicing issues regarding skating related things, this just happens to be one I feel strongly about. Is that allowed? I just don't get why adult track is made easier considering that adults, I believe, are capable of doing just as well as children. That should be a compliment to you, not an insult. Dang. And if it were equally difficult and the standards were the same, you guys wouldn't have to battle so hard for respect. Lack of respect comes from the fact that it is easier, that body type doesn't seem to matter, that test standards aren't as high. I will tell you, that's why I don't respect adult track AS much (which doesn't mean I don't) as regular track. Cause I know you guys can do just as well as a 12 year old, maybe even better. Adults have landed triples. It may not be everyone's goal, but most of you could do it. Might just take longer. But you could. Which is why I don't get the leniency, as if the USFSA is insinuating they should expect less quality from an adult skater, and you guys are just agreeing with them. If that's really how you feel, then fine. I think you're selling yourselves short.

-FadedStardust

Elsy2

03-28-2004, 12:11 PM

I think the intention of the lower passing averages and certain leeway in how certain moves are passed for adults was to accomodate the vast differences in physical abilities over a wide age range.

What is the age range for those in the standard track in competitive skating?
Let's just say it's somewhere in the area of age 5 to 25 on average? Skaters at their peak of fitness ability.

The age ranges for adult skating are 25 to 75? Fifty years! It's just not realistic to not recognize the limitations one experiences as they age.

Unless you've gone to Adult Nationals and watched what goes on there, I don't think you can understand the large focus of adult skating and the effort to allow everyone to participate.

I take my daughter.....an Intermediate level competitor, to adult nationals. Believe me, she respects what she sees there. Some of the programs are not just incredible because of jump content, it's the mastery of presentation that is so awesome.

As for the non-qualifying levels, the joy of skaters doing their personal best is inspiring.

It's just a whole different ballgame, so to speak.

I'm getting off track here....but I get a little crazy when I hear talk of not respecting adult skating.....

skaternum

03-28-2004, 01:21 PM

techskater

03-28-2004, 02:49 PM

I think that the poster who has less respect for the adult track needs to come and watch an adult test with someone who's in their 50's who started as AN ADULT and has worked to gain skills while having the adult fear of falling/injury that kids don't have.

I am not a thin skater, but I can get my a-- off the ice in decent jumps (including some doubles). Why? GOOD TECHNIQUE! My knees don't bother me because I take care of myself. I have my reasons for being overweight, I am working on it (40 pounds in the last 2 years shed) but I won't get into that because I will be accused of making "excuses". Don't tell me I shouldn't be jumping until I lose more weight because your assessment would mean I would never have MEDALLED at Adult Nationals because I'd still be "grounded". I have been dubbed on another board as the Axel Queen due to my ability to get my a-- in the air -- all of it...

Skating may be about performance, but it is a sport none-the-less and the best technique and (in the adult ranks) overall performance (jumps, spins, speed, flow, MIF, footwork, choreography) wins almost every time except for with a few judges. Midori Ito was not thin the first time around, but she was strong!

BTW, the only adults who have landed triples so far are those that had them before. There are quite a few of us who are working on our Intermediate and higher moves and our doubles. No injuries, even with the extra weight.

Sorry for the rant, but the poster who suggested overweight skaters shouldn't jump hit WAYYY to close to home.

dooobedooo

03-28-2004, 04:42 PM

As this judge appears to be well-intentioned, I would try to look past her poor communication skills and look for the "grain of truth" in her argument. I think you should ignore her comments about your weight, if you feel happy and comfortable with it. However, I think you DO probably need to give some thought to improving:

(a) physical fitness (do you look slow and lumbering on the ice?)

(b) dress presentation (could you make more of an effort in co-ordinating your costume, jacket, tights, etc? Are your boots sparkly white? Is your hairstyle flattering?).

(c) on-ice presentation and confidence (do you hold your head up, smile, have a beautiful entrance and exit, and present confidently?).

I'd get a really good friend to video you, and watch it together and ask for some input from your friend and coach on these issues. My gut instinct is that there may be scope for some improvement in your fitness and presentation and that weight is probably not the main issue.

Remember that people are watching you, and you should make it an enjoyable experience both for yourself and them!

Enjoy your skating, and enjoy putting some focus onto your presentation/fitness ....

vesperholly

03-28-2004, 05:38 PM

I'm talking about freestyle. Jumping. Jumping is bad when you are heavier cause it HURTS you. That's what I'm saying. Puts pressure on joints and bones, and the older you get, the more your joints and bones are already getting weaker, without needing the extra pressure. It's a health concern. If you don't get that I can't help you conprehend it. It's not about "ideal body size", it's about thinking you CAN do freestyle at any body shape, when it's simply a hazard to you. Yeah, I'd rather watch a fit skater than someone sticking out of their tights, and so would most judges, but it's not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about s-a-f-e-t-y.

What? I think good technique has more to do with being safe than weight. How many thin elite skaters have ruined their bodies and careers with repetitive triples - isn't that a little more harmful than Chubby Sue doing single flips? I've never had a serious injury in the 10 years this overweight skater has been jumping, but a young girl at my rink recently was off the ice for six months with a hip injury - and she's a size 0. I'm not denying that weight has an impact on your body. I've read the physio articles in SKATING magazine and elsewhere. The more you weight, the more impact you have to absorb when you land. Ice skating jumps are not a natural activity, and EVERY skater puts themselves in danger's way when they jump.

ETA Techskater! I CAN do freestyle. I work very, very hard to have good technique with my jumps. Is my coach lying to me when she says I do? My freestyle might not be the best or the most attractive in the world, but every time I step onto the ice for practice, I'm proving you wrong.

fadedstardust

03-28-2004, 05:40 PM

It's just a whole different ballgame, so to speak.

I'm getting off track here....but I get a little crazy when I hear talk of not respecting adult skating.....

I've been to an Adult Comp, and I BELIEVE it was Adult Nationals, but it might not have been, it was last year in Massachusetts. Either way, I enjoyed it very much, my favorite number was by a woman 76 years of age, I believe...she looked like she was having the best time of her the way I've heard certain adult skaters complain about the difficulty of tests or lack of respect or things in general, that's what makes me respect it less. If another adult competition comes to the area, you can bet I'll be there to watch it.

-FadedStardust

fadedstardust

03-28-2004, 06:02 PM

I can't believe this thread is still alive. (And I can't believe I'm still bothering to read it.) I find most of fadedstardust's and peaches' comments to be so ridiculous they're laughable, but I admire those of you willing to try to discuss this subject with them. Somebody find out where fadedstardust coaches, so we can warn all the fatties to run in the other direction. :roll:

And just who are these "adults" who have landed triples? I know of some Masters skaters who have, but adults?

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you should find their opinions "laughable" or make a personal attack on someone's character because of it. Most of the adults I help out are overweight, and since they are beginners there is no talk of jumping, thus their size does not matter. However, if I were their regular coach (I only coach a little bit on the side, like most skaters) yes, I would suggest they do some cardio work outs and I'd help plan out a healthy diet with them before they jumped, if they expressed a desire to. The adults I currently help with jumps aren't a size 2 but they are fit for their age, and I feel good about helping them knowing they are not putting unecessary extra stress on themselves. Don't judge my coaching ability simply by the fact that I, along with many doctors and professional PSA rated coaches, don't think significantly overweight people should be putting that much stress on their joints. That's my personal decision and if you're giving me money to teach you a sport, I'm surely not going to make you do something that I believe will injure you, it'd be completely irresponsible of me. As an adult, if you can't understand that and wait 6 months to jump while you lose a little bit of extra weight, you're missing the point of skating, anyway. It's a long and drawn out process and there's really nothing wrong with holding off on jumps a little while if it will be better for you in the long run. Same with ballet and pointe shoes, no one gives ballet teachers such a hard time for them not allowing overweight students (of any age) to go on pointe until they've lost enough weight so as to not hurt themselves. Well, a toe pick jump is the same basic idea. You want to believe what you're saying, and since you are in that particular situation, you're defensive about it. But...can't you just say "I agree, maybe being overweight will hurt me more and it wouldn't be a bad idea to lose some weight but I really want to get started on jumping now and I'll take the risks" rather than saying "that's such a ridiculous and outrageously crazy idea!" when it's not? I have BEEN overweight, way more than 20 pounds actually. It took me a long time to take off, but I knew that if I didn't want to hurt myself, I'd have to. I heard from a ton of people what I'm relaying here now. It wasn't fun to hear, but it was true, and I could at least admit it.

Your comment was incredibly immature and mean spirited. You're the adults, I'm one of the few teenagers posting on here, and yet you're the ones coming up with the personal insults. That's pretty ironic. I'm sorry my comments hit too close to home. Believe whatever you want, but then don't ask for people's opinions because God forbid someone doesn't agree with what you believe. The original poster isn't even the one who has a problem with the different opinions, she said she hadn't thought of them before and that she was giving different viewpoints consideration. So, she may not agree, and that's fine, but at least she respected that other points of view and knowledges may be valid. But laugh if it helps, I guess. I said earlier this was my final post, but since I enjoy this topic, I kept posting, but I'll just give up on this topic, almost no one here so much as considers any opinion other than their own, anyway. That's not really what a forum's about.

-FadedStardust

jp1andOnly

03-28-2004, 07:21 PM

[QUOTE=fadedstardust]I think you hit all the points. Technically, both the first body types you mentioned have shots, although it's tougher for longer limbed people to USE all their length and make nice lines. Once they DO though, it's beautiful (think Maria Butyrskaia). But yes the first group seems to be the one that wins most, whether that means it's ideal for skating is speculation, although it sure does seem that way. As far as why there aren't ANY and have never been fat elite skaters, other than because the ones who are were told to lose weight and suceeded or because they were held down too much because of their appearance and never made it to the top, no one will really ever know, we just know there's no such thing as a fat top ranked skater (or really a fat competitive skater in USFSA past maybe pre-juv).

CAN adults ignore the nature of this sport? I guess they have. I personally don't think they should, for their joints as well as for the people who watch them as well as for themselves, but...I think the adult programs are too young right now to really tell what direction they will go in. Some incidents hint the adult track will be selective about body shape, some don't. I think we'll know that answer in maybe ten more years, hah. I personally think on a lesser degree than the regular track, but still to a degree, the adult track should stress personal best fitness. It IS a sport after all, and the adult track is NOT the special Olympics. The people taking part in it are fully capable to take care of their bodies, unlike someone who has a mental illness, so the allowances should not be the same, and in the end, I think that if we do regularly accept overweight (15+ lbs) adults, whose joints and bones are already weaker than they used to be, to do the freestyle portion of skating, and even compete, the injuries are going to be astronomical in the long run. Skaters get injured, it's a known thing. Lean, light as a feather skaters get arthritis, ligament tears, everything really...from overuse of their body...well, if you do simpler jumps but are twice the body weight, I'd suspect the risks to be the same, or even doubled, for injury. And that's really not the path I want to see adults who are trying to enjoy a sport take. If it does turn out that way, I suspect that with time, more and more adults will figure it isn't worth the pain and the risks of long term injury or surgery. I think the issue with weight and adult skaters is much more a safety and health one than younger skaters, which is 50/50 for looks and health.

This post is so degrading to peopel who are special olympians. Excuse me, but why do you think special needs kids are overweight? I coach a lot of them and only a few are overweight.

Because of my illness I sometimes have to go on HIGH doses of steriods (like they give cancr patients) I can gain upwards of 5-10lbs in a week on them. They are the worst thing but I need them to help control my disease.

I managed to lose 50lbs and I really need another 20-30 to go. But when you have a slow metABOLISM (I HAVEN'T BEEN THIN A DAY IN MY LIFE. oK THE DAY I WAS BORN I was) combined with health issues being 20 lbs overwieght isn't the end of the world.

My coaches haven't told me to lose weight. I know i should nad chances are i can probably get rid of 5-10 over the summer months. I don't eat unhealthy, I skate 3 times a week, and i jog on the treadmill 3 times a week. My body just won't let me lose it.

plinko

03-28-2004, 08:16 PM

I'm the reason Mondor makes skating tights in size XXL. I'm six foot tall (or so) and weigh, oh about 195 lbs. I was a high level athlete in another sport where tall and big is good, for some freaky reason I decided to take up figure skating this year, over age 40(something) and having 4 kids. Of course I'm way too fat, I should weigh about 175-180 at my training weight, but it doesn't matter, I'm a BIG GIRL out there, I'm never going to be short and slight. Jumping doesn't hurt and I can do a nice waltz jump. Maybe next year a salchow and a loop. Spinning is difficult because trying to center my gravity. Camel spins are a funny disaster because of my upper body weight. I'm several inches taller than my dance partner, I find it all very funny and concentrate on having powerful edges and hope he can keep up with me.

I'll have arthritis, I already do in my shoulder from my previous sport, but that's the risk I want to take. Skating has been recommended by my ortho surgeon as a nice, low impact way of maintaining my aroebic fitness and it works. I don't spend all my time jumping, like the little competitive wannabes, probably three or four in an hour and a half session. Just because I can.

If a judge came up to me and made comments about what I should do about my body, I'd probably get two minutes for crosschecking.

manleywoman

03-28-2004, 08:17 PM

montanarose: lovely post.
:bow:

twokidsskatemom

03-28-2004, 08:37 PM

fadedstardust

03-28-2004, 11:02 PM

faded I have a ? for you...

You dont think young kids should skate and compete, and you dont think adults who arent thin should test/compete, then who is left?

Yes, that is sarcastic to make a point. I think everyone who want to skate should skate, no matter the reason.

Ummmmm everyone else? Adults at a healthy body weight. Kids (who I never said shouldn't skate, just shouldn't do difficult jumps cause their bones aren't developed yet. Go ask Scott Hamilton, he just did an interview about how bad he thinks it is) and teens, also with a healthy body weight? I don't know why you all have this delusion that skating is an "every body type" sport. Ballet isn't. Gymnastics aren't. For the SAME reasons I've listed about skating, and newsflash: skating isn't either, and no amount of whining or judge reporting will ever change that. No one seems to try and argue their case in either of the other disciplines, though. And actually they're a lot more extreme than skating about the weight and height you need to have (and yes, there ARE adult ballet dancers, many who started as adult, and yeah, they ARE all relatively fit, they know they have to be, adult or not). I'm not saying adults need to be as thin as competitive regular track skaters (or dancers and gymnasts), I'm saying they need to have a healthy body weight. And if they don't, yes, by all means they should skate, but they shouldn't jump (I don't consider a waltz jump actually jumping, when I think damage to joints I think the deep hip ridden entrances to sals and loops, and toe hammering from lutz/flip/toe) until they HAVE lowered their weight. You wouldn't be tumbling in gymnastics with extra weight. You wouldn't be on pointe in ballet with it, either. Why? Cause it'd be too much stress on your bones. Skating: same friggin thing.

-FadedStardust, who can't quite understand what is so difficult to understand about her point, what's so politically wrong with it, and how many times of repeating the same thing it might take for people to just say "I respect your opinion, you respect mine, now let's move on." Cause I DO respect yours, I just don't agree. But I'm not mocking it, or any of you. You don't agree and it "makes you want to laugh" and inspires "sarcastic remarks" indicating you can't even respect it, which, considering most of you are adults, IS sad.
It's not my joints who might get damaged if you are overweight and jump. It HAS been me, getting told similar things as Morgan was by that judge, many a time but it isn't anymore because I knew people were right and I did something about it so honestly I don't care what you do. Opinions were asked, I gave mine. Then people misunderstood, over and over and over and still are. As hard a time as you seem to have accepting an opinion that you might feel insults you, as hard I'm having a time of people twisting all my words. If you don't get it, just skip my posts, period. I'll stop making them when people stop mocking things I say in a hope they'll convince themselves there isn't any truth to it.

twokidsskatemom

03-28-2004, 11:17 PM

umm what scott said was if you dont have a triple by 9, you migh not be able to compete like others, and he also talked alot about the WHOLE sport has changed in the past 20 years.How EVERYONE is doing stuff not done 20 years ago. JEnny kirk also talked about how inportant off ice training was too.Its all of it that has change, its not just fluffy stuff but real athetic and maybe it should go back to more footwork and skating.
There are overweight ballrooms dancers who compete, overweight hockey players in adults that compete ect, alots of adults that do lots of competive sportss who might not be thin.
I think you said it, teenager should compete and that is what you are.maybe in 30 years you will change your viewpoint.

Mrs Redboots

03-29-2004, 01:34 AM

But, Twokidsskatemom, I know from what you have posted elsewhere that you have started to skate yourself. Now, you may or may not be bitten by the skating bug that has bitten your children and so many of the adults on this thread, but if you are, chances are that some day, you too will want to measure your skills against those of your level and age group.
I know you weren't ruling out anybody other than teenagers competing - after all, again, I know from elsewhere that your own children have begun to take part in little competitions. As long as it's fun, and as long as whoever it is isn't competing way out of their class - in either direction - then anybody who wants to should compete.

Incidentally, fadedstardust, you might be interested to learn that my husband, who has never been overweight in his life and still isn't, even though he is 53, had to give up free skating because his knees couldn't stand the jumps! Whereas I, who am as well-covered as many middle-aged women (I expect that, with the intolerance of youth you would call me fat), and who infinitely prefers dance, can jump all day if I have to without my knees protesting! Mind you, I can't do a loop jump, which was what did for my husband's knees.... But he dances far better than me.....:frus:

twokidsskatemom

03-29-2004, 01:54 AM

That is why i think its not an age or weight issue mrs red :) I think anyone who wants to should and can compete and it should be based on performance not weight or looks.
Yep, my jacksons came, hitting the ice tommorow and Im not a skinny minnie either :)
My point was that faded thinks only teens or adults in peak shape should compete and I dont agree.She is a teen herself.maybe I didnt explain myself well enough.It was her idea, I was being sarcastic when i said only teens. When she is older I dont think she will feel the same way.
:)

jazzpants

03-29-2004, 02:31 AM

And if they don't, yes, by all means they should skate, but they shouldn't jump (I don't consider a waltz jump actually jumping, when I think damage to joints I think the deep hip ridden entrances to sals and loops, and toe hammering from lutz/flip/toe) until they HAVE lowered their weight. Chuckling at the comment that waltz jumps aren't "real" jumps -- considering that's how I'd injured my calf recently. :roll: (The landing on the second consecutive one did me in!)

But this ol' broad (Alright! Not that old!) ;) is gonna go back to jumping again when she passes her Bronze Moves test!!! (Hopefully in a couple of months.) :mrgreen:

passion

03-29-2004, 06:10 AM

Wow! Lots going on here. I have a few things to say.

First, I will answer my question about whether adults should completely ignore that this is an aesthetic sport. No, they should not ignore it. I think adult skating is great because it encourages adults of all levels and abilities to skate. We all have our limitations and only we know what those are, but we may also be surprised that we can surpass what we thought are our limitations. So, we can work on things that we have more power to change rather than beating ourselves against the wall. For example, we can focus on improving our flexibility for better extensions and line, as well as self-expression (using all the head, eyes, hands, whole body). I think you can also create illusions of longer lines depending how high you hold your arms when you do cross cuts. Costume design is very important in creating illusions as well. There are fashion principles in skating just as there are in regular clothing. BTW, I think that adults tend to have better artistry (and artistry is so intertwined with aesthetics), even at beginner level programs.

I am a size 0/2, and I can't skate more than two hours a day because my knees start to hurt. Not only that, I am really unfit. I can't even make it through a two minute program without having a stretcher on the ice to die on after I finish it. lol.

What do I think about modifications to adult judging or testing? Personally, as an adult skater, I don't want a judge to give me more slack just because I am an adult. I actually find that insulting because to me, it says that they don't think I am capable of being as good as a mainstream skater. And I do think that it lowers the standards for adult skating. Judging me as the same as a mainstream skater helps to raise the expectations I have for myself, and consequently drives me to become a better skater. If there were adult tests, I would definitely opt for the mainstream tests. I think it also gives me an opportunity to show people that hey, I'm an adult, but I can do the same things the youth are doing, so don't underestimate me! I hope that one day I will be able to break new ground as an adult skater. That is one of my dreams.

flo

03-29-2004, 09:57 AM

from Faded:
"I just don't get why adult track is made easier considering that adults, I believe, are capable of doing just as well as children."

Then you will never understand what it is to be an adult skater. Learning to skate and skating as an adult is significantly different from learning/skating as a kid. We are not kids. We do not want to be kids.

vesperholly

03-29-2004, 01:57 PM

Great post, flo. Very to the point.

I would also like to add pre-emptively: Adult skaters want to be taken seriously and respected, but taking adult skaters seriously doesn't mean holding them to the same standards as child skaters.

dcden

03-29-2004, 02:43 PM

from Faded:
"I just don't get why adult track is made easier considering that adults, I believe, are capable of doing just as well as children."

Oh my goo'ness, this quote gave me a chuckle today.

It was only in 2002 that we saw the first triple jump at Adult Nationals, and that was from a former senior-level competitor (who skated as a child). You rarely see a skater who started skating as an adult get up to double jumps, whereas there are a great number of children just in my area who have several double jumps. I'd love to think that I, as an adult, have a reasonable chance of getting triple jumps and making it to the Olympics someday, but HELLO! Reality check!? It ain't gonna happen. There are some rogue adult skaters out there who believe that they can make the Olympics, but until I see someone start skating in their 20's and somehow get their triples before age, wear & tear, and circumstances get in the way, I'll just regard such claims as a sample of the interesting nuances of the human condition.

On the other hand, I personally don't need to have a realistic chance at making the Olympic team, or even passing the senior free test, to get an enriching experience from skating. When I skate, I don't compare myself to a child who has been skating since 5 or 6. When I began this sport, I never aspired to compete with children on the standard track. It would have been an unreasonable goal to set for myself. However, the current adult free skating tests do offer a reasonable level of skill progression for the average adult to aspire to.

The adult moves tests are another story. What I never was able to understand, still don't, and probably never will is this: why are adults required to pass intermediate and novice moves (from the adult gold test) before they are allowed to test at a freestyle level (gold FS) that allows double jumps, whereas children need only pass preliminary moves to test at a level (preliminary FS) that allows double jumps? Yes, the adult requirements are different from those of the kids... they're HARDER in this respect. Even if you consider the freestyle levels based just on the elements on the freestyle tests as opposed to competition levels, the adult moves requirements are still harder... gold FS is approximately equal to the juvenile FS test, but the gold MIF test is approximately one level higher (intermediate) than the juvenile MIF test.

Don't get me wrong... I love MIF and use some of them as part of my warmup routine on the ice. They help me get the feel of the ice and help me work on my edge quality. But adult track being easier? I don't think so.

dcden

03-29-2004, 03:18 PM

Wait, there's more:

I know you guys can do just as well as a 12 year old, maybe even better. Adults have landed triples. It may not be everyone's goal, but most of you could do it. Might just take longer. But you could. Which is why I don't get the leniency, as if the USFSA is insinuating they should expect less quality from an adult skater, and you guys are just agreeing with them. If that's really how you feel, then fine. I think you're selling yourselves short.

Oh my, if you know of a coach that can get me to land triples before I die, then Tarasova, Aruntunian, Nicks, et. al. better look over their shoulders because that coach has some technical knowledge that the rest of the world knows nothing about. As much as I love adult skating, I highly doubt that most, or even some, of the adult skaters could ever land triples. Most KIDS don't even land triples. Where are these adults (as opposed to adults who skated at a national senior level as kids and now compete as adult Masters) who have landed triples? I'd love to learn a thing or two from them, or at least find out where their magic mushrooms grow so I can eat some myself. As for USFSA creating lower standards and adults agreeing with them: gosh, I wish I could attribute my lack of triple jumps to sheer mindset. If my wishes could translate into reality, I'd have quad Axel by now.

I said earlier this was my final post, but since I enjoy this topic, I kept posting, but I'll just give up on this topic, almost no one here so much as considers any opinion other than their own, anyway.

We do, we just usually respond better to the statements that are accompanied by more convincing arguments and evidence. Where again, are these adult triple-jump-landing phenoms?

Also consider this: Arguing that adults should be able to land triples is like saying that Plushenko oughta be landing quad Axel by now. Theoretically true, but realistically not.

twokidsskatemom

03-29-2004, 03:30 PM

Wait, there's more:

Oh my, if you know of a coach that can get me to land triples before I die, then Tarasova, Aruntunian, Nicks, et. al. better look over their shoulders because that coach has some technical knowledge that the rest of the world knows nothing about. As much as I love adult skating, I highly doubt that most, or even some, of the adult skaters could ever land triples. Most KIDS don't even land triples. Where are these adults (as opposed to adults who skated at a national senior level as kids and now compete as adult Masters) who have landed triples? I'd love to learn a thing or two from them, or at least find out where their magic mushrooms grow so I can eat some myself. As for USFSA creating lower standards and adults agreeing with them: gosh, I wish I could attribute my lack of triple jumps to sheer mindset. If my wishes could translate into reality, I'd have quad Axel by now.

We do, we just usually respond better to the statements that are accompanied by more convincing arguments and evidence. Where again, are these adult triple-jump-landing phenoms?

Also consider this: Arguing that adults should be able to land triples is like saying that Plushenko oughta be landing quad Axel by now. Theoretically true, but realistically not.
All of what iyou said is why that remark was uncalled for.Adults skates to skate, and you can either do the element or not.Adults arent like kids.Weight shouldnt be an issue, just how well you can do a element or program.
Me, I just want to learn how to be semi gracefull :)

peaches

03-29-2004, 04:11 PM

flippet

03-29-2004, 04:27 PM

fadedstardust, you've made some good points, but it's no use trying to help those that will not help themselves. It has to come from within.

If they want to sell themselves short, remain fat slobs, and skate like hippos on downers then let them.
I've got to say, with an attitude like that, I'm thanking my lucky stars that I don't know you personally. I feel like taking a shower to wash the crap off! 8O

However, you do make a point. Whether you think adults or fat people should skate or not, it's not up to you. And hallelujah for that.

Sk8r4Life

03-29-2004, 05:01 PM

Maybe peaches' last comment was somewhat inflammatory. But frankly, I am surprised that she waited so long to post something like that. The popular opinion in this thread seems to be that no one in the adult skating world should be judged on appearance and that weight shouldn't be an issue. peaches, Fadedstardust and myself are some of the ones who have disagreed with this popular opinion. For the most part, we have expressed opinions, and I don't recall any personal attacks. Arguments against ideas that people have expressed, absolutely, but I know for myself anyway, I have tried not to attack people at all, but criticize/disagree with ideas . In return we have been "chuckled" at, accused of being phobic and ageist, called "body fascists", the targets of harsh sarcasm, and general mean-spiritedness, including from the "moderators". All for simply disagreeing with the majority.

It's clear that even after hearing the opinions of others, some people will never change their mind. And that's ok. I guess those of us who believe that weight and appearance does affect the overall essence of skating will have to deal with the fact that there are people to whom this does not matter, and who will remain overweight. And those people will have to deal with sometimes being judged (I use the term judge loosely, to mean anyone making a judgment, not skating judging at a test or competition) on their appearance and/or weight. I guess it is a tradeoff for being able to hold your own opinion and not be told what to believe.

On a side note, I was just curious about the following quote:
Adult skaters want to be taken seriously and respected, but taking adult skaters seriously doesn't mean holding them to the same standards as child skaters.

What standards do you think adult skaters should be held to? (Note: I am not trying to be rhetorical or facetious--I am truly curious to hear from someone who has put thought into it what the standards should be for adults. Perhaps this could be addressed in another thread)

peaches

03-29-2004, 06:02 PM

Yes, my comment was harsh, but born of my frustration in seeing people accept what I consider to be mediocrity and from being tired of being slammed myself.

Why shouldn't adult skaters strive to look better? If they're accepting less than the best and they're thinking that they'll never be thinner, never get double jumps, triple jumps, etc., then why even skate to begin with? If a person is already holding themself down with some notion that they can't do x, y, or z, then I don't see why they skate at all except recreationally. It's a sport! Strive to be better, push to do more than you think you can, don't settle. The attitudes from some of the posters is just so frustrating.

Sorry, rant off, and I'm out of this thread. I can't stand to see people making excuses.

passion

03-29-2004, 06:33 PM

Peaches, I think adult skaters skate for different reasons. Some just skate because they want to get in shape, some skate for stress reduction, some skate because they like the satisfaction of setting goals that they know they can attain and reaching them, but I think all adults skate because it's fun. I think adult skaters will become discouraged and skating will no longer be fun if they set goals that are not realistic for *them*. Those same goals may be realistic for another adult skater, but just not for them. (I know for myself, I have the ability to eventually land all my doubles. It's just a matter of when. I am working on my double salchow and double toe loop. Part of my dream is landing a double axel. Then who knows from there? But I am only speaking for myself. You have to take into account fitness level, strength of the skater, age at which you started to skate, speed of progress, coordination, any previous injuries, existing medical conditions, energy level, amount of fear factor, flexibility, etc). My previous post is *my* opinion based on knowledge of all the above factors for myself, but I can certainly understand that other adult skaters may want a different testing stream than the regular mainstream. Ultimately, I think skating is all about doing your personal best and making the most of your potential which only you and your coach know. No matter what level, what size, what age you are, skating can be an extremely satisfying sport.

Adult nationals was very inspiring to watch! I am proud of every adult skater who went out and skated this weekend.

Peaches, I can see your point about automatically counting yourself out on doing certain things, but sometimes, I think it is better to take baby steps than take a big lunge (like making my goal to land a triple). For instance, when I first learned to skate as an adult it was a *huge* dream of mine to skate a whole program to music and take a skating test. (Those were the days when I was learning to skate backwards and doing crosscuts). Then once I achieved those goals, I looked further to the next thing I could achieve which was landing an axel. At the time, it was a *huge* hurdle, but I got over it. My goals now are even higher. Do you see what I'm trying to say? But I do agree with you that sometimes adult skaters underestimate themselves. Today for example, I met an adult skater and I thought she was skating very well. I mentioned that she should enter the adult competition and her response was, "Oh, I'm too old". And I was thinking, there were lots of people *way* older than you who competed.

Figureskates

03-29-2004, 08:23 PM

I think it is great to set goals, but they have to be tempered with some sort of reality. For example, at 58, I am never going to do a triple of anything except for maybe a triple fracture in the emergency room.

Underweight, overweight, tall, short, young, or old, just enjoy the fact that you can lace up a pair of skates and get out on the ice.

techskater

03-29-2004, 08:30 PM

There are a number of adult skaters that are overweight, but are able to jump. As I stated in my earlier post, I have a good axel, double sal and toe loop and am working on the loop, flip and lutz (doubles). My goal is to land a double axel within the next year and I am not thin. Not only that, I compete at the Gold level and am able to make it through 2:33 without dying. I have specific skating goals in mind for my skating.

Many adults have real life that infringe on their ability to skate and progress - family, jobs, bills, children, responsiblities.... If I was able to skate as much as I wanted, I would have taken off the remaining extra weight I have and would be landing triples...

Just the $0.02 of a "fat" adult skater...

TreSk8sAZ

03-29-2004, 08:36 PM

No one seems to try and argue their case in either of the other disciplines, though. And actually they're a lot more extreme than skating about the weight and height you need to have (and yes, there ARE adult ballet dancers, many who started as adult, and yeah, they ARE all relatively fit, they know they have to be, adult or not). I'm not saying adults need to be as thin as competitive regular track skaters (or dancers and gymnasts), I'm saying they need to have a healthy body weight. <snip> until they HAVE lowered their weight. You wouldn't be tumbling in gymnastics with extra weight. You wouldn't be on pointe in ballet with it, either. Why? Cause it'd be too much stress on your bones. Skating: same friggin thing.

I'm hoping you've never competitively danced, especially in the ballet arena. Because I'm afraid that, in recent years, you simply do not know the standards, unless "relatively" fit is a bit broader spectrum. Yes, in ballet there are some weight and height restrictions. But they are a lot more lenient than you seem to be assuming. I started ballet (and other forms of dance) when I was 2 under doctors' orders. I am by no means small, simply because of my bone structure, as I've stated before. I usually was one of the tallest, and one of the larger girls. I won plenty of individual titles. Ballet teachers DO let you en pointe even if you are a little overweight. ALL pointe is bad for you, but if you have proper technique you can lessen the strain. Same in skating. Proper technique does lessen the strain. I had to have knee surgery because of basketball, and I'm still allowed to dance and skate. I dance in my college program, though not for my major. While I have a preoccupation with my weight, I've actually asked my professors (since this thread came up) and they are perfectly fine with taller, more muscular (ie larger) girls dancing, so long as they aren't doing something so wrong to hurt themselves. While many of the top professional companies still take stricter standards, I have danced with a professional company and not had a problem.
The rules are changing for the ballet world as well. No longer do you absolutely have to be a tiny stick. You can be tall, bigger (not extremely fat, but just bigger), and still have a beautiful line.

fadedstardust

03-29-2004, 10:14 PM

I'm hoping you've never competitively danced, especially in the ballet arena. Because I'm afraid that, in recent years, you simply do not know the standards, unless "relatively" fit is a bit broader spectrum. Yes, in ballet there are some weight and height restrictions. But they are a lot more lenient than you seem to be assuming. I started ballet (and other forms of dance) when I was 2 under doctors' orders. I am by no means small, simply because of my bone structure, as I've stated before. I usually was one of the tallest, and one of the larger girls. I won plenty of individual titles. Ballet teachers DO let you en pointe even if you are a little overweight. ALL pointe is bad for you, but if you have proper technique you can lessen the strain. Same in skating. Proper technique does lessen the strain. I had to have knee surgery because of basketball, and I'm still allowed to dance and skate. I dance in my college program, though not for my major. While I have a preoccupation with my weight, I've actually asked my professors (since this thread came up) and they are perfectly fine with taller, more muscular (ie larger) girls dancing, so long as they aren't doing something so wrong to hurt themselves. While many of the top professional companies still take stricter standards, I have danced with a professional company and not had a problem.
The rules are changing for the ballet world as well. No longer do you absolutely have to be a tiny stick. You can be tall, bigger (not extremely fat, but just bigger), and still have a beautiful line.

Actually, I have competed in ballet...and won a few years in a row (up to two years ago which...is recent or not depending on how fast these changes in the dance world are taking place), Kids Artistic review on the East Coast is the one I did the most- I have those tacky plastic trophies sitting on my comp table actually. I guess, although it might not be a DIRECT comparison, I was thinking more, for ballet, about getting into a company and the weight and height restrictions with those kinds of auditions. I can see how it's not a direct corrolation to skating comps and it'd be more like comparing to Disney on Ice or something (which has weight restrictions too, of course)...but I guess, if you MAKE it in ballet, you're probably in a company. If you make it in skating, you're probably in Senior comps.

I've seen a lot of overweight kids at dance comps, and while I don't necessarily think it's all that attractive, some of the kids are very good, no doubt. But they're not doing ballet, they're doing jazz, or lyrical...rarely do I see *significantly* overweight kids do all that well on pointe (nor do I see many on pointe in the first place, except maybe at a recital from a tiny unknown school with a ballet teacher who doesn't know efface' from ecarte'). And after taking from Boston Ballet, guest teachers from NYCB and various smaller companies, I can tell you I've never met a ballet teacher worth her stuff who'd let a kid with 30+ extra pounds on her do pointe. It's actually the reason *I* lost all the extra weight I had, I wanted to do pointe and no one would let me, haha (in the long run, thank God, it motivated me to get fit). Which doesn't mean you can't take ballet from these people if you're good but overweight. They just won't let you on pointe. Just like you can still skate and enjoy it and not jump. I happen to LOVE MITF, for the record. And spinning. Jumping is my least favorite. If I didn't need it, I probably wouldn't do all that much of it, hah. Maybe that's why I don't see the big deal with holding off.

-FadedStardust
PS: Regarding your last comment, what I'm talking about IS extremely overweight cases. I'm not talking about people with a little bit of a belly. That's my whole point. Of course a kid (or adult...) with a little chub will be fine on pointe. That's not what I'm talking about here..and also, muscular is FINE. Muscular is good. If you're big cause you've got big muscles, or big bones, that's not gonna hinder you, that's pure strength. If you've got 5 inches of flab on both sides of you, though, that's a different story, and the one I'm talking about.

dbny

03-30-2004, 12:17 AM

I think it is great to set goals, but they have to be tempered with some sort of reality. For example, at 58, I am never going to do a triple of anything except for maybe a triple fracture in the emergency room.

Please, don't even think such a thought! For at least a year after my broken wrist, images of horrific splats would occur to me as I skated, and believe me, that totally took the fun out of it, not to mention the flow.

FAT
OK, I've totally had it with some of the negative comments on this thread about fat skaters, who, BTW, also happen to be fat people. Guess what? They have the same problems as other fat people. If anyone has a guaranteed way to help people get thin and stay thin, it is a big secret. This is not a simple problem! There is absolutely no reason why fat people should not strive for the same excellence as anyone else in any endeavor they choose. I personally know more than one fat adult skater, and I'm not talking about people with a few pounds to lose, a little tummy, etc. I was one of them for over a year after I started skating. Genuinely obese, but I skated. I think anyone who has not had to personally deal with an eating disorder (of which overeating is one) should now cease and desist with their wholesale broadcasting of opinions on fat skaters. They don't have clue what they are talking about. ~end of rant~

Mrs Redboots

03-30-2004, 11:38 AM

If they want to sell themselves short, remain fat slobs, and skate like hippos on downers then let them.Listen, young woman, I've news for you: skating happens to be exercise. That's right, the thing that doctors and the government are always telling us to do more of, right? I suppose you expect us to sit on our bums getting fatter and fatter, no? I know folk - adults and children - who have lost enormous amounts of weight through skating, and others who have become very fit. Body size has little or nothing to do with it, I know fat skaters who are superb, and thin ones who are awful. I'd be pretty awful even if I was as thin as a rake, but then, I'm no athlete, never have been and never will be.

BUT in skating I've found a sport that I love, that keeps me fit, that I look forward to doing 4 or 5 times a week for over an hour at a time, and that has undoubtedly contributed enormously to the fact that my husband and I celebrate our Silver wedding anniversary tomorrow. We choose to skate and compete, knowing we'll be very lucky to rise any higher than our current pre-Bronze level, because it gives us goals to work for and the most fun anybody can have with their clothes on!

If you find us pathetic, or "looking like hippos on downers", then may I suggest you find yourself another sport? Adults are in figure skating to stay, so get used to it!

flo

03-30-2004, 11:51 AM

:bow: Mrs. Redboots - good job. The only ones "selling themselves short" are those not willing to try, or give credit to those who do. Perhaps this thread should be put to bed now, then revisited by some as they age and mature.

passion

03-30-2004, 12:38 PM

I was just going to say, instead of focussing on how fat some adult skaters are and whether it impedes their progress, we should focus on commending and supporting overweight skaters for getting out their, skating, getting fit, moving their bodies, and not let negativity get in the way! I support overweight adults 100%.

And just for the record, I was beat in competition by the older, fatter skaters!

Mel On Ice

03-30-2004, 01:14 PM

Yes, my comment was harsh, but born of my frustration in seeing people accept what I consider to be mediocrity and from being tired of being slammed myself.

peaches, if you have ever been around a group of adult skaters, the one thing that you will IMMEDIATELY find out is we are not mediocre. On my synchro team there are successful professionals from a wide variety of fields who have also successfully raised wonderful families. At any given adult competition, you will meet doctors, lawyers, MBAs, business owners, professors, and maybe even a Nobel Prize winner. Don't sell any of us short, we have already mastered successes in everyday life, we are now trying to tackle a sport with bodies that have done some livin'.

Why shouldn't adult skaters strive to look better? If they're accepting less than the best and they're thinking that they'll never be thinner, never get double jumps, triple jumps, etc., then why even skate to begin with? If a person is already holding themself down with some notion that they can't do x, y, or z, then I don't see why they skate at all except recreationally. It's a sport! Strive to be better, push to do more than you think you can, don't settle. The attitudes from some of the posters is just so frustrating.

Hm. I see your point, but can't agree. With age comes reality and responsibility. For me, at age 34 and at a size you so eloquently described as a "hippo on downers", I fear there's a long, hard road ahead of me. In order for me to get down to an elite-level "acceptable" body, I'd have to follow a celebrity-type diet and exercise plan. Could I? Maybe. Would I? At this stage, that would be a self-centered approach to life. I have other responsibilities in life, like a free-lance business, a husband, a dog, a house, and am going through the process of adopting children. I simply cannot focus all of my being on figure skating.

If I remember, you said you were a coach. I can imagine your frustration of a complacent attitude towards the sport from your point of view, HOWEVER, I feel you must acknowledge a skater's limitations and accept what their goals are, and not dismiss them if the goal is not to skate at the Olympics.

You also said "Strive to be better, push to do more than you think you can, don't settle," which is excellent advice for anyone in this sport. But you have to acknowledge that adult skaters have knowledge and fear, and that sets us back because we have a longer fall than the bitty kids. Kids want to tear around the ice at top speed, it takes us longer to find our comfort level.

I can't stand to see people making excuses.

There's a difference between making excuses and accepting one's self for who they are. Maybe it comes with age, experience, self-actualization. All I can tell you is I like myself a whole lot better at 34 and a size 14 than I did at 17 in a size 8.

I'm also getting the vibe that you, in general, do not like adult skaters at all. I hope that's not the case. The adult skating community is a wonderful environment of intelligent, inspiring people who are supportive of one another and their accomplishments. Many times I have seen the gold medal winner compliment the last-place finisher on a lovely move, and see silver and bronze winners arm in arm to collect their prize. This is a sport yes, but this is where you see sportsmanship.

flippet

03-30-2004, 01:34 PM

Great post, Mel.

I'm also getting the vibe that you, in general, do not like adult skaters at all.
I'm getting this vibe, too. It sounds like some of the judgement-mongers on this thread might be the kind you sometimes see at rinks who just can't stand that some fat, slow adult is taking up space on their ice. The ones who think they're just so good, or that they need all the ice in order to achieve their own goals (or the goals of their absolutely, positively Olympic-bound students), that they will attempt to intimidate any adult who sets blade to ice, even up to mowing them down if necessary. It seems just about every rink's had a few of these at one time or another, sadly.

They eventually learn in the end that adults aren't going to leave anytime soon. Some just take longer to figure this out than others. Ah well. Their misery.

Mrs Redboots

03-30-2004, 03:03 PM

At any given adult competition, you will meet doctors, lawyers, MBAs, business owners, professors, and maybe even a Nobel Prize winner.This is not an exaggeration, by the way - at least one Nobel Prize winner is an ice dancer, and turned up one Sunday morning at Oxford's regular dance club session. Friends of mine, who are members there, were thrilled to meet him, and I gather he danced superbly!

skaternum

03-30-2004, 03:05 PM

Gee, I can't wait to go meet Peaches in person at the Peach Classic in the Fall. Maybe get a pep talk from her. :lol:

fadedstardust

03-30-2004, 05:15 PM

Great post, Mel.

I'm getting this vibe, too. It sounds like some of the judgement-mongers on this thread might be the kind you sometimes see at rinks who just can't stand that some fat, slow adult is taking up space on their ice. The ones who think they're just so good, or that they need all the ice in order to achieve their own goals (or the goals of their absolutely, positively Olympic-bound students), that they will attempt to intimidate any adult who sets blade to ice, even up to mowing them down if necessary. It seems just about every rink's had a few of these at one time or another, sadly.

They eventually learn in the end that adults aren't going to leave anytime soon. Some just take longer to figure this out than others. Ah well. Their misery.

I quit debating on this already, just want to inform you that most rinks (including mine, so that counts me out) have special adult freestyles, and even if they don't, they separate skaters by level. If Novice is at 10am, you're not on it. If Juvenile is at 3pm, I'm not on it. Our pathes never cross. And btw, I'm very friendly/chatty with every single adult skater at my rink- they all love me and I love them back and get very excited when they have something new to work on. Just because I don't support obesity within a physically demanding athletic setting doesn't mean I don't support people working on their personal goals and that I can't appreciate people's accomplishements and personalities all the same. I know, I know, that makes you "chuckle". My purpose in life. But clearly, by your constant asumptions about my character, I'm not the only one who could stand to be a little less close-minded (and at least, I admit it).

-FadedStardust

jenlyon60

03-30-2004, 06:01 PM

Maybe MOST rinks where you live. Where I live there are hardly any Adult-only Freestyle sessions. At the rink I skate at, there used to be 1 Adult freestyle session, once a week, which was very well attended (15-20+ people). But it was opened up to anyone some months ago and is now more crowded than before. Can't speak for the other rinks in the area where I live.

I choose to skate mostly very early mornings, before work, with the obligatory once-per-week skate on one of the afternoon FS sessions, for one of my lessons.

dbny

03-30-2004, 07:29 PM

Adult only freestyle session? Never heard of it.

jazzpants

03-30-2004, 09:15 PM

Adult only freestyle session? Never heard of it.Me neither, though during the school year, our regular FS session essentially becomes an Adult FS session after about 8:30am... :P

There's also Coffee club though, but I jokingly refer that as our "impromptu ice dance session" since a good group of the regulars are ice dancers! (Same with our Monday nights Adults only public session since a lot of the adults are figure skaters, though lately it's been evenly mixed between them and the hockey skaters!) :P

fadedstardust

03-30-2004, 09:37 PM

twokidsskatemom

03-30-2004, 09:49 PM

dbny

03-30-2004, 09:59 PM

all of our fs are together, from my 4yo who is doing her 3 turns, to the ice dancers and the adults.everyone gets along .

Same here :)

fadedstardust

03-31-2004, 01:22 AM

all of our fs are together, from my 4yo who is doing her 3 turns, to the ice dancers and the adults.everyone gets along .

This is my final post on this entire board:

If you'd added "but thanks for the suggestion, maybe someone else will find it beneficial" to the end of that quote, I would have had a sense of you actually being a semi pleasant person returning my gesture in trying to calm a long winded argument. But there's really no pleasing you people is there? I post a "controversial" point of view on adult skating, you're not happy. I offer a positive suggestion to better some people's practices in adult skating, you're not happy. I thought that if I tried to bring something positive into this thread, it could be a way to end this in peace and tame the fire. But it's really sad how immature some of you really are, clearly holding a grudge over something that wasn't an insult to begin with. Your posts, twokidsskatemom, have grated on my nerves as much as mine have grated on yours, not on this thread but on others, but I have bitten my tongue so many times simply because your opinion is your opinion and I have no reason to cut it down and tell you mine's better (unlike 99.9 percent of you on EVERY topic from Michelle vs Sasha to this one...it's impossible to exchange ideas here! Just FIGHT about them, cause no one accepts diversity of beliefs). I voiced on this topic because it was a pretty unpersonal thing, it wasn't "should *I* lose weight, here are my measurements", which I wouldn't have replied to no matter what I thought, it was "in general, should people attempt to be fitter in skating" which is why it was safe enough to voice opinions without attacking or offending anyone personally. If you were offended by my posts, then you think you are too fat. If you think you are too fat, that's not my fault, I never called you fat and I never will. I was voicing a general opinion on the sport. Apparently none of you function like that here, which is sad, but I've really come to hate this place. It's time for me to stop posting, this stopped being fun way too long ago and I haven't even been here long. Peaches, carry the torch of reason please. They need someone who actually understands how the sport works instead of how people wished it worked. You've got a patience of steel for still being here. Good luck, my friend. I'm out.

-FadedStardust

twokidsskatemom

03-31-2004, 02:32 AM

I have no clue what your deal is all about.
Its my job as a parent to discover my childs passion and help them persue it. No matter if its skating, hockey, or reading. That is part of the role we play.I dont want my child to win a medal as much as find out for herself what she LOVES to do. Alot of kids never ever find it.So, my child likes to no excuse me loves to skate. She is never forced or made to go.She is happy on the ice. next year it might be something else, and then we will support her in that choice as well. You dont think kids should do jumps, that is fine. How about all the kids in hockey, football ect? Lets see, a kid sitting at home watching tv or skating ? A child who loves to skate or a kids doing drugs ?
Then you dont think adults who are overweight should skate either. I dont think anyone said...boy I will not lose weight but skate. everyone here who has weight issues im sure would love to lose weight. But I sure the h--- dont think they should stay off the ice either. i think anyone should skate no matter what. You dont have to watch them. Its not your life. you dont need to coach them or watch them so you ?
places arent the same. our rink isnt the same as yours. sorry. its life. our fs is all, just how it is.It wouldnt be hard to check on my story, everyone knows Im in alaska and how many rinks do you think we have here?
Then I should make nice about your coment? excuse me, I have two small kids and fit this in when time allows. I was just agrreing with another poster who said they dont have adult fs either. We dont have high low, adult ect. I wasnt comenting about you.
And btw, i am 5 foot 6 and wear a size 8. But I hate when people put anyone down, it really irks me.
You have said you are a teenager. you have said you are a coach.You think about this thread when you are 40 and married with kids.Life changes alot of views.
no one said you couldnt disagree. But not acting like you know it all either.You dont and neither do I.But I admit it :)

twokidsskatemom

03-31-2004, 02:38 AM

you were offended by my posts, then you think you are too fat. If you think you are too fat, that's not my fault, I never called you fat and I never will. I was voicing a general

I was offended as they were RUDE< not cause I am fat. ADULTS dont name call.My kids know better than that.

jenlyon60

03-31-2004, 04:36 AM

Nope. Won't happen at my rink. We're already losing well-subscribed freestyle sessions to hockey, because hockey is willing to pay more.

All winter, I skated splitting the rink with hockey players...me and several other skaters on half the rink, 5 or 6 hockey players on the other.

Anytime a freestyler makes noises about any session other than the 3 "after school" sessions, we run the risk that the session we were commenting about will suddenly be sold for hockey.

Hockey is BIG BUCKS. Up Front.

Every adult I've talked to who goes on adult freestyle absolutely love them. For those of you who say you don't have them or haven't heard of them, that's a shame, maybe you could mention it to the rink staff where you skate? I know a LOT of adult sessions accross the nation are cancelled due to lack of attendance in that they don't make back the money it takes to make the ice, but that is CRAP because a lot of rinks have early morning freestyles for high level kids, and there's only one or two people on there and I doubt they are making the money back there, either. It's a good idea because I know the adults at my rink always hold back and don't practice as much as they'd want to on regular sessions (even of their level) because they feel like they'd be "in the way" which is a shame. If you have ice you're happy with then good, but if not, it'd be an option to get some adults from your area together and ask for adult freestyle, it could even maybe get more people to get into it, if the rink advertizes it well enough.

-FadedStardust

Elsy2

03-31-2004, 08:54 AM

Every adult I've talked to who goes on adult freestyle absolutely love them. For those of you who say you don't have them or haven't heard of them, that's a shame, maybe you could mention it to the rink staff where you skate? I know a LOT of adult sessions accross the nation are cancelled due to lack of attendance in that they don't make back the money it takes to make the ice, but that is CRAP because a lot of rinks have early morning freestyles for high level kids, and there's only one or two people on there and I doubt they are making the money back there, either. It's a good idea because I know the adults at my rink always hold back and don't practice as much as they'd want to on regular sessions (even of their level) because they feel like they'd be "in the way" which is a shame. If you have ice you're happy with then good, but if not, it'd be an option to get some adults from your area together and ask for adult freestyle, it could even maybe get more people to get into it, if the rink advertizes it well enough.

-FadedStardust

I have to say I do appreciate this post, and it does seem that you do have some understanding of what some adults are feeling out there. I agree that many adults feel they are "in the way" and hold back.....I don't think the responses are a slam to you, it's just a reality at most rinks that adult sessions are not an option. Especially rinks like mine with only one ice surface.

But as to Peaches carrying the torch....and us not understanding the way the sport really is....well, that's been the whole point of many posts here. I'm assuming you are a competitive skater at Novice or above? I believe you absolutely understand the way competitive skating is on the regular track. We've been saying all along that adult skating is different in many ways, but you haven't been hearing us. These aren't excuses as you suggest, it is the reality. I don't think you will ever experience what most adults do, as you will go directly to Masters if you chose to compete as an adult. You will have different challenges, that of keeping those doubles consistently as you have less time to spend on training. Nobody is going to tell you that the moves you have passed on the regular track don't matter, and you have to pass a bunch of tests that include all the moves you already tested. That's the situation for any adult who hasn't passed Intermediate FS. Nobody is going to make you pass Intermediate and Novice moves even though your FS level is equivalent to Juvenile. That's the situation for Adult Gold testers. Nobody is going to impose some unknown standard on your tests. If you are hearing us then you realize many judges are expecting higher standards for adult tests, not lower. The lower passing standards mean nothing. Just numbers.

Well, I have to admit I've enjoyed this whole thread......

skaternum

03-31-2004, 09:15 AM

If you'd added "but thanks for the suggestion, maybe someone else will find it beneficial" to the end of that quote, I would have had a sense of you actually being a semi pleasant person returning my gesture in trying to calm a long winded argument. <snip> I offer a positive suggestion to better some people's practices in adult skating, you're not happy. I thought that if I tried to bring something positive into this thread, it could be a way to end this in peace and tame the fire.

-FadedStardust

It's very difficult to take your "suggestion" as positive after you've been "convtroversial" (your word, not mine) on a topic. You started off by telling us adults that we need to fix what you perceive to be wrong with us, or we shouldn't be testing and competing. So forgive us if some of us see your post as another indication of how ignorant we are and that you know what's best for us. We aren't ignorant of the ways of the skating world, as you seem to believe. Many of us serve as officers and board members and test chairs of our clubs. We represent our clubs at Governing Council, and we know how to negotiate ice time. But most of the places we skate simply will not create adult only figure skating sessions because they don't make enough money for the rink. They've tried; we've tried. Duh. It's a matter of economics. Why would a rink choose to make $90 off of adult skaters when they can sell the same ice to hockey for $220? But thanks for the suggestion. <shrug>

dcden

03-31-2004, 09:45 AM

Twokids, I've read and re-read your "all of our fs are together" post and cannot for the life of me fathom why fadedstardust went off on you. I have no clue what faded's deal is all about, either. I don't know how your post could be viewed as holding a grudge. It wasn't even about the obesity issue anymore, either! If anything, you were moving on with the issue, and faded was dredging up the past arguments.

Oh well, at least this thread has provided me with amusement for the past few days.

flippet

03-31-2004, 09:53 AM

If you'd added "but thanks for the suggestion, maybe someone else will find it beneficial" to the end of that quote, I would have had a sense of you actually being a semi pleasant person returning my gesture in trying to calm a long winded argument. But there's really no pleasing you people is there?
Whoa. Overreact much? I didn't see anything argumentative in the previous post. All twokidsskatemom was saying was that adults-only freestyle sessions were not available at her rink. But apparently you feel you need stroking when you give a suggestion. That, my friend, is immature.

If you were offended by my posts, then you think you are too fat.
Um, nope. Personally, not fat, not offended. However, my feelings are irrelevant to the fact that your comments were offensive, regardless of whether someone was personally offended or not.

flo

03-31-2004, 10:13 AM

For anyone in the Baltimore area, there is an Adults Only freestyle at Ice World on Tuesday evenings. My home club, The Ice Club of Baltimore at Northwest ice rink is a very open club welcoming adults and kids of all shapes and abilities. The six year olds, the teens, and the adults all skate together and we get along quite well.

Elsy2 - I think you've summed up my feelings!

Elsy2

03-31-2004, 11:28 AM

Elsy2 - I think you've summed up my feelings!

Thanks Flo!

peaches

03-31-2004, 11:28 AM

peaches, if you have ever been around a group of adult skaters, the one thing that you will IMMEDIATELY find out is we are not mediocre. On my synchro team there are successful professionals from a wide variety of fields who have also successfully raised wonderful families. At any given adult competition, you will meet doctors, lawyers, MBAs, business owners, professors, and maybe even a Nobel Prize winner. Don't sell any of us short, we have already mastered successes in everyday life, we are now trying to tackle a sport with bodies that have done some livin'.

If I remember, you said you were a coach. I can imagine your frustration of a complacent attitude towards the sport from your point of view, HOWEVER, I feel you must acknowledge a skater's limitations and accept what their goals are, and not dismiss them if the goal is not to skate at the Olympics.

I'm also getting the vibe that you, in general, do not like adult skaters at all. I hope that's not the case. Successful people can and are accepting mediocrity when they make excuses for why they're the size they are and why they'll remain that way. Maybe they're just happy with themselves, or maybe it's just too hard for them to get up and do something about it. Either way, in the end they're doing nothing, and that is what I meant about accepting mediocrity. That, and of course saying that because they're older they'll never get certain jumps or moves, or whatever. I say, never say never, but I'm apparently more optimistic than a lot of people here.

If you've gotten the vibe that I'm against adult skaters, then you haven't been paying attention. Not liking excuses about skating and weight is vastly different than disliking the adult skating community as a whole. But, if the adults want respect then they need to take skating more seriously, IMO. And that means no excuses.

To Flipper - No I do not intimidate anyone on the ice. I wouldn't want anyone doing it to me or my students, therefore I don't do it to anyone else.

Faded, I'm done being the voice of reason. I can't deal with unreasonable people that only want to take comments and twist them into "You're a mean, bad person who hates adult skaters". I guess that's just easier for them to believe than what I actually posted though. ;)

Mel On Ice

03-31-2004, 11:47 AM

I said: I'm also getting the vibe that you, in general, do not like adult skaters at all. I hope that's not the case.

you translate that into:

"You're a mean, bad person who hates adult skaters".

who's having a harder time reading what is posted?

Mrs Redboots

03-31-2004, 11:50 AM

Successful people can and are accepting mediocrity when they make excuses for why they're the size they are and why they'll remain that way. Maybe they're just happy with themselves, or maybe it's just too hard for them to get up and do something about it. Either way, in the end they're doing nothing, and that is what I meant about accepting mediocrity. Do feel free to point out where anybody was "making excuses" for the size they are? Some of us pointed out that losing weight is a lot more difficult once you hit fifty (tell me about it!), and others - me included - said that often perception of "overweight" is as much a matter of fashion as of fact.
That, and of course saying that because they're older they'll never get certain jumps or moves, or whatever. I say, never say never, but I'm apparently more optimistic than a lot of people here.Well, your experience may be different, but I don't know anybody who started skating over the age of 45 who has any more difficult jump than a single lutz, just possibly a rather small axel jump. And had you the coaching of me, Peaches, you would know that there are limits - even though my coach said, in another context, "Lutzes are easy; even you could do one if I showed you how!" But I'm a dancer at heart and have no interest in doing more than minimal jumps.
But, if the adults want respect then they need to take skating more seriously, IMO. And that means no excuses. Again, feel free to point out how skating four or five times a week and winning medals in international competition is not taking skating seriously?

To Flipper - No I do not intimidate anyone on the ice. I wouldn't want anyone doing it to me or my students, therefore I don't do it to anyone else.May I suggest you learn to read accurately - our Moderator's handle happens to be "Flippet", not what you have just written.... it is a good job she has a sense of humour!

peaches

03-31-2004, 11:56 AM

Gee, I can't wait to go meet Peaches in person at the Peach Classic in the Fall. Maybe get a pep talk from her. :lol:I don't attend, thanks. :)

Mel, tit for tat. Others exaggerate the situation, so can I. ;) BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you. :lol:

Mrs. RedBoots (let us hope you don't actually skate with red boots), my apologies for misspelling a name.

flo

03-31-2004, 12:11 PM

From Peaches:
"If they want to sell themselves short, remain fat slobs, and skate like hippos on downers then let them."
From Peaches to Mel:
"BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you."

Peaches, This is not the "voice of reason". It's one of intolerance and imaturity, and one we can do without.

Mrs Redboots

03-31-2004, 12:12 PM

Mrs. RedBoots (let us hope you don't actually skate with red boots)I wonder why you hope that? I know skaters with blue boots, and purple boots, as well as the more traditional black, white and beige. And you can even get leopardskin-print boots, I've seen them!

Me, I use bootcovers, to ring the changes..... On Sundays, I try to reflect the liturgical colour of the season.....

peaches

03-31-2004, 12:13 PM

flippet

03-31-2004, 12:34 PM

Mel, tit for tat. Others exaggerate the situation, so can I. ;) BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you. :lol:Is that so? I happen to know Mel personally, and I can't imagine what kind of stories you're talking about.

The immaturity comes with the insinuations you're making. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Sk8r4Life

03-31-2004, 12:47 PM

This has gotten ridiculous! This is supposedly a thread related to adult skating and the last several posts have been incredibly childish. I am an adult skater, I like skating with adults (much better than the small kids who never look up from the ice) and while I don't agree with adult skaters (or kids, or non-skaters) who are overweight and not doing anything about it, I have come to realize that no matter what I do or say people are not going to change unless they want to. Having said that, maybe it is worthless to say that we could all benefit from taking a deep breath and previewing what we have written before posting it to the board. Lots of comments have gotten very snarky, from both sides of the argument and even from the moderators. I don't know about anyone else, but I am much more likely to listen to an argument/opinion that is backed up with facts or at least valid reasons for having that opinion. When someone reinforces their opinion by taking a cheap shot at someone else, they lose a lot of credibility. And by cheap shots I mean direct insults, thinly veiled sarcasm, or even a flippant comeback. These things have already driven at least one person away from the board. Why let it continue?

batikat

03-31-2004, 05:21 PM

I'm an adult skater. I'd admit to being slightly overweight and not terribly inclined to do too much about it - along with skating, food is one of the pleasures of life! It doesn't mean I don't take my skating seriously. I have competed (and medalled, albeit at a low level) at the British Adult Championships. Possibly if I lost a few pounds I may look better in my skating dress but I am pretty sure it won't have a significant affect on my skating ability! What would improve my skating would be having more ice time - unfortunately with 2 kids (who also skate) and a home and a husband who is often away and a college course, I can't spare any more time than I do now.

As adults we take our skating as seriously as our circumstances will allow. These are often very different to those of a child (who has parental backup and support and no reponsibilities) or even a young adult who will have fewer responsibilities and may be yet to discover other things beyond skating which they could also become passionate about.

I fail to understand the attitude of the posters who seem to think only the young/fit/slim (take your pick - I can't recall the exact details of the posts) should do jumps and then seem to be berating adults for apparently limiting themselves and their skating aspirations.

Adults do have limitations due to aging bodies (older bones break easier and take longer to heal) and for adults there can be serious financial and lifestyle/family consequences to a fall. If I can't drive because I've broken something then it is a big problem for me. Therefore it is more likely to be fear affecting our performances than weight. Fear of falling is why it took me 2 years to decide to try Free skating as well as dance. However it was not jumps but practising spirals that did for my back!! A good chiropracter fixed that problem.

I don't think most adults are making excuses or accepting mediocrity. Most of us are striving to be the best we can in skating. But again for most of us it is not our number one priority as we have lives beyond skating too.

Many adults are skating in spite of health problems - some of which are quite serious ones and skating can be very therapeutic (see Irina Slutskaya!!).

Anyway I think the point of my post is that as adults we want our skating to be taken seriously but we want to be judged on our skating ability and not on our appearance. The judge was wrong to make the comments she did but judges are only human and we all make mistakes.

BTW In the UK there are no 'adult' tests so we have to take the same tests as the kids. I am happy with this but there are adults who have severe limitations on time or health who would still like to be able to mesure their progress in skating through testing and enjoy the sense of achievement a pass brings, so I can see a place for an adult test structure as an option though I think we are unlikely to get this here.

Mel On Ice

03-31-2004, 08:51 PM

Mel, tit for tat. Others exaggerate the situation, so can I. ;) BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you. :lol:

They must be good, entertaining stories, as my rep in the skating community is pretty clean, and my competitive record is not bad. Matter of fact, if anyone wants to know a little bit about me or my club, feel free to visit www.SPFSA.com.

sk8pics

04-01-2004, 06:17 AM

Mel, ... BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you. :lol:

There's no call for remarks like this, and you know that perfectly well. I'm not sure why you thought it was so funny, as evidenced by the smilie you chose to use.

I, too, think this thread has gotten way out of hand, but now I know to skip over posts by Peaches and Fadedstardust in the future.

Pat

Elsy2

04-01-2004, 07:03 AM

Batikat....nice post, and good try to bring this all back on track.

Mel, I've heard about you too....and can't wait to meet you! ;)
I tried to go to your site and it must have had too much activity. It ceased up and wouldn't load.

Check out how many veiws this thread has had. Amazing!

Michigansk8er

04-01-2004, 08:35 AM

I happen to personally know Mel too, and have for years. You obviously have the wrong Mel in mind. I can't imagine what stories you are talking about either.

garyc254

04-01-2004, 09:22 AM

Mel, tit for tat. Others exaggerate the situation, so can I. ;) BTW, I know who you are and I've heard some *really* interesting stories about you. :lol:

Since I know and occasionally skate with Mel, I can tell you she is one of the nicest, warmest people I know. She's a dedicated worker and promotes ice skating for everyone. She pushes herself in her skating, but keeps a good humor about the elements she can do and the elements she's yet to master.

"Interesting stories"? If they were, then they are all good healthy stories usually with a little humor involved.

Skatewind

04-01-2004, 11:26 AM

Anyway I think the point of my post is that as adults we want our skating to be taken seriously but we want to be judged on our skating ability and not on our appearance. The judge was wrong to make the comments she did but judges are only human and we all make mistakes
batikat, I agree with your post & attempt to put a more positive light on some of these issues. Although in the original example given in this topic, I don't think it sounded like the skating was being taken all that seriously if the test was put out when there were clearly technical problems with it.

There certainly have been some very intolerant comments here, made on both sides of the weight issue as well as the adult skater (us) vs "kids track" (them). FYI, it's not the "kids track" but the standard skating tests - double check the criteria for the tests & who is taking them. I don't get the general impression there is much interest at all from a lot of posters in this thread to come up with a creative solution to the original concern & problem & do anything positive about it. The thread has been transformed into nothing much more than a useless gripe session, without much respect for differing opinions, which doesn't make the greatest statement about either older adult skaters or intolerant junior/young adult skaters.

Ellyn

04-01-2004, 11:52 AM

This may be off topic for this thread, but I can't help wondering whether a skater who takes up the sport at 12, skates 5-10 hours a week with maybe half an hour of lesson time, and whose skating goal is to reach intermediate level before going off to college is "accepting mediocrity."

There are plenty of teen skaters with that level of commitment, for whom skating is a serious hobby but for whom academics or a "well-rounded" lifestyle or not going into debt are more important than all skating all the time.

Such a skater can still strive to skate as well as she (or he) can given the limits of the time and financial resources available for her skating, knowing that she's never going to be an elite competitor.

Isn't the same true of adult skaters?

Skatewind

04-01-2004, 02:14 PM

I agree Ellyn. That would not constitute mediocrity in my book. An example of what I would consider mediocrity as far as skaters I interact with at the rink would be those who are very much aware they are not skating at the level needed to pass a test, etc. but still insist on testing it anyways. And when they don't pass, it's blamed on the judges, the club, the USFSA, or anyone & everyone except the skater or coach who put out the sub par test. There is a huge difference between a skater putting their foot down & having a bad day vs not even trying to master the required skills. Often these tests are taken in an effort to "get it over with as soon as possible" or because "who cares about that part of skating anyways". The very intent from the beginning for a lot these skaters is to get as much value (i.e. higher test levels) on the poorest quality possible. They want to be "gold" test skaters in name, but don't really want to put the effort into learning gold test elements. I much prefer to see the skaters at the lower levels who master lesser skills to the point where there's beauty in the simplicity of them, rather than to see the sloppy skaters who have great expectations & demand it all with the poorest of intentions.