What Adult means to USFS - MITF tests

[DRENDAVN]

Perhaps slightly OT from original thread.

Some pertinent quotes -

"I believe that there can be a place for everyone in USFSA. I think there can be a robust program for returning/continuing skaters AND skaters who started as adults. I just think I may be seeing the beginning of a trend in USFSA, and I don't want to see skaters who started as adults get squeezed out."

"I've already stated that I think there is room for all kinds of adult skaters. I just don't want to see USFSA assume that they're the only adult skaters around. I'm merely postulating about what I perceive to be the beginnings of a trend."

"Yes, there are a number of local and regional competitions that now have adult portions included in their competitions. But I also feel the adult who learned to skate as an adult, and I agree that 'adult skater' was originally the meaning, has been shuttled to the back rink."

"I would love to see a section for those who learned as adults (I started at age 46) but somehow it does not fit in with the focus of the USFS."

-Generally I agree with Skateflo and Skaternum and have shared many of the same feelings on the issue. I started at 41 never having skated on ice before.

"Of course, it may not matter after a while. I haven't seen any "new" adults start the test stream since the adult MITF became mandatory. The only ones I've seen testing prebronze are the skaters who were already hooked."

-I'm not sure I've seen this but I have noted a general slowdown of adults starting up the testing ladder since MITF became mandatory. I recall being at AN in Marlboro and another adult skater friend telling me that there was a movement afoot to make MITF tests mandatory for adult testing and I should voice my opinion against it since it was being promoted largely by returning or continuing kid skaters now(then)in power at USFS. I wasn't a member then and felt I had no voice but wanted to learn more about the issue.

I was rather incensed when I read a quote soon after by someone in power who was promoting MITF saying something like, "these competing adult skaters need to learn more about turns, edges, body control ..." or some such and the MITF testing would make that happen. Well, from a critical skating point-of-view I would agree (I can be as critical as Dick Button) BUT from a PRACTICAL standpoint it angered me. As an adult skater participant I observe how large a problem sandbagging seemed to be at A.N. BEFORE MITF came along, I can only imagine it will become MUCH worse after. I also resented this statement from the standpoint that most serious competitive adult skaters I've met were working on standard track MITF tests anyway. I resented the inference that adult skaters somehow didn't care about good technique or self-improvement and needed to be lead by the heavy hand of regulation to better themselves.

I think USFS must have been crazy not to have allowed grandfathering of standard track MITF tests previously passed by adult skaters. We as adults certainly don't have unlimited funds for coaching or ice time. More and more I hear of less ice time being available for figure skating in general, particularly scheduled when working adults can take advantage of it.

If the larger focus is supposed to be getting adults into participating and competing while at the same time improving skating I think MITF misses the mark. In my case the Pre-bronze moves requirement is particularly discouraging. Contrast what the Pre-bronze Freestyle test requirements and elements are to what the MITF requirements are. There is a VAST disparity of difficulty involved. Case in point the sequential/serpentine F.O. and F.I. three-turns. This skill comes from PRELIMINARY moves. It requires one to complete the 3-turn, check hard on the back edge, then open up and step to the opposite FORWARD edge, smoothly. I submit that this is a test for 6 to 10 year olds, not middle-age adult male beginning skaters. My coach complains about this requirement, and while she can do it well she feels she needs a bunch of warmup and practice to demonstrate it comfortably and smoothly. What chance do I have of doing this well?

I would submit that USFS need only crunch their own numbers to see how much (or little) they've promoted the test stream to beginning middle-aged people. I would bet that the amount of older beginners, particularly men, passing Pre-bronze has slowed to a trickle. I feel A LOT farther away from testing since MITF than before. Perhaps I'll never get there now.

I guess to sum up my feeling is that the deck is stacked largely in favor of the returning skater rather than trying to foster new beginning adults. Sorry for the rant but this hits close to home for me.

Dave D.

[CanAmSk8ter]

What Dave said. I especially agree with him on the following points:

A. Most serious adult skaters were doing MITF long before the adult tests were implemented. They may not have been doing them with testing in mind, but I can name only a handful of adult skaters (and I know many) who weren't at the very least doing them as part of an on-ice warm up. I don't personally have a problem with them being required to take the adult freestyle tests but I can see where one might. As adults, one would think we'd be able to make our own decisions about whether we had the ice time, coaching time, money for both, etc. to take moves tests.

B. Some of the requirements need to be moved around. Those alternating 3's were the hardest thing on the Prelim test for me, and I was fourteen years old at the time!

C. Not allowing grandfathering, and not providing a way for skaters who would prefer to take the standard track to do so, makes no sense to me whatsoever. If the point of requiring the MITF for adults is to make them better skaters overall, shouldn't we be applauding and encouraging those who choose to push themselves to the level of the child/teen skaters, rather than saying, "Well, that's all nice and good, but now you'll have to spend another $$$ to take the adult test too"? Take my example: I'm not 25 yet. I've passed my Intermediate MITF and Pre-Juvenile FS. For the last three years I've been focused solely on dance, but when I turn 25 I'd like to take my Adult Pair tests and maybe some of the Adult FS tests as well. My understanding- and this may be wrong- is that I'd have to start over with my Adult Pre-Bronze freeskate and therefore my Adult Pre-Bronze MITF. What a waste of time and money!

Quick question: what's the deal with the Adult Pairs tests? Do they have the Adult MITF requirement also?

[skaternum]

Originally posted by CanAmSk8ter
Quick question: what's the deal with the Adult Pairs tests? Do they have the Adult MITF requirement also?

Yes, they do. TR 35.03 says: ... Prior to taking adult pair tests candidates must have taken and passed at tleast the equivalent level adult moves in the field test.

And, obviously, I agree with Dave and CanAmSk8r on the MITF. I found them objectionable when they were first introduced, for exactly the reasons Dave gives. I *am* one of those adult skaters who started testing standard MITF on my own because they're good for my skating. I don't need USFSA to ram it down my throat.

Anecdotally, I know several adult skaters who can't/won't test any further on adult tests because they don't have the money or ice time to tackle the MITF tests. My pairs partner is a good example. He's passed Novice MITF, but to be able to compete at the "appropriate" freeskating level, he'd have to take at least Pre-bronze and Bronze MITF tests, and also Silver if he wanted to compete at Adult Sectionals and Nationals. He skates 3 hours a week now and takes NO lessons because of time and financial constraints. Sure, he shouldn't have too much trouble being able to get those tests ready, but that's an extra couple hundred dollars for the test fees, lesson time, and practice sessions. It's ridiculous. CanAmSk8r, if grandfathering were allowed, it wouldn't be an issue. He'd still have to pass the freeskating tests, but that cuts his test expenses in half.

[dbny]

I agree that grandfathering should be allowed.

Don't forget that the standards for the Adult moves tests are lower than for the standard track. For example, on the consecutive three turns, in Prelim, putting one's free foot down every time before stepping forward would fail that move, but is allowed in the adult Pre-Bronze test.

[Debbie S]

Dave, I feel your pain. :)

I've been skating 2 1/2 years, and I'm getting close to being able to take pre-Bronze MIF. I've been working on the test seriously for 6 months, although it feels like a lot longer, and I'm ready to scream in frustration about those 3 turns. If it wasn't for them (and the practice time they require), I could have been ready to take the test 2 months ago, maybe earlier.

I have heard many stories in my area about judges' scoring of adult moves tests. It seems that there is a lot of inconsistency over what the judges expect and how the test standards are applied, and that can even vary from rink to rink. One of my coach's students recently failed Bronze MIF and my coach disagreed with the result. My coach suspects that judges are more demanding of adult skaters under the belief that "adults should know better." Then recently, a "returning" skater passed pre-Bronze MIF, even with a fall on her back crossovers, because the judges liked her edges and 3 turns so much they passed her without a reskate.

I know they instituted moves to increase the quality of adult skating, but as skaternum pointed out, adults who want to skate and compete well will take it upon themselves to improve the quality of their skating by practicing and testing MIF (or edge classes, or other ways). I personally am finding the moves discouraging, and I would much prefer to improve my basic skating skills in the context of my freestyle elements.

dnby, exactly what do you mean by being allowed a touch down of the free foot? There's nothing like that in the rulebook and when I asked a judge at a recent moves critique how long adults were allowed to keep their free foot down during the transition, she looked at the book and replied that there was nothing in there about 2-foot skating allowed and I was not allowed to touch the free foot down until I got back to the line. Have you seen passing pre-Bronze tests where the skater touched down?

[skaternum]

Originally posted by Debbie S
dnby, exactly what do you mean by being allowed a touch down of the free foot? There's nothing like that in the rulebook and when I asked a judge at a recent moves critique how long adults were allowed to keep their free foot down during the transition, she looked at the book and replied that there was nothing in there about 2-foot skating allowed and I was not allowed to touch the free foot down until I got back to the line. Have you seen passing pre-Bronze tests where the skater touched down?

Here's one of the nasty little things about the Adult MITF tests. The Adult Skating Committee has this on its web page: MITF Comparison Chart (http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf). Conscientious adults and their coaches will read it and attempt to use it as a guide for preparing for tests. The problem is, nobody ever told the judges! Most judges have no idea it even exists. They have no clue what the passing standard should look like for adults, so you get some nasty surprises on test day and major inconsistency in how they're judged.

[sk8er1964]

I think that adult MIF's are a good thing. However, I do feel that there are some elements included that are out of line. The alternating 3's are one of them, and the Novice move on the Gold test is another. USFSA needs to go back and take a good long look at what they're including in the tests now that they've been in practice.

I also agree that grandfathering should be allowed. IMO, there is no reason someone who has passed the standard MIF test (or freestyle, for that matter) should have to take them over. Sure, the moves don't correspond exactly to the standard level, but the intent is the same.

I had to take 5 adult tests to be able to skate at my required level (due to the kid rules). I would have much rather have spent those 7 months training correctly then having to push myself so hard to get the tests over with - and I was able to grandfather through Silver because I took 3 freestyle tests in one day just before the rules changed. If I hadn't had to push so much (I really wanted to skate at AN when it was here in Michigan), maybe I wouldn't have gotten injured just after my last test........

[Stormy]

Originally posted by skaternum
Here's one of the nasty little things about the Adult MITF tests. The Adult Skating Committee has this on its web page: MITF Comparison Chart (http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf). Conscientious adults and their coaches will read it and attempt to use it as a guide for preparing for tests. The problem is, nobody ever told the judges! Most judges have no idea it even exists. They have no clue what the passing standard should look like for adults, so you get some nasty surprises on test day and major inconsistency in how they're judged.


UGGGG, YES!!! When I went to take my Silver MITF test, I saw the panel of judges and I knew there was NO WAY they'd judge me on the Adult Standards, and I was right. Granted, I was having a very off day and failed the test (and rightly so), but they still judged on the standard track.

I turned 25 last year, and by then I had already tested up to Juvenile Moves and Pre-Juvenile Freeskate. And now, I am having to spend a lot of time and money practicing and re-testing (and failing!!?? :cry: ) Moves I passed years ago. PLUS when I failed my Silver MITF, it was a week before the AN deadline, so I couldn't do Silver at AN. BUT, I already knew since I passed Pre-Juv FS like 4 years ago (not realizing future consequences), it prohibited me from skating Bronze! So no AN for me. I took and passed Bronze MITF and Free....and I can't skate it? How is that fair??

I would much rather keep testing standard track MITF, but since I really want and need to get these Adult tests out of the way (so to speak), I keep plugging along at Pre-Juv three turns and Pre-Prelim spirals. Really, what is the reasoning behind not grandfathering?

[Debbie S]

I guess the lesson is that adults need to prepare using the standard track guidelines. I suppose one could make sure their test chair gets a copy of the adult guidelines and ask him/her to share with the judges on test day, but who knows if the judges even care to see it or if it will change what they expect. Then the question is: why set up adult tests that are different from the standard track tests? I do realize there are a couple of standard moves that are not on any adult test - like the Pre-Juv power pulls and the Prelim spirals. But I think the standard tests that correspond to the adult levels seem a bit fairer. The Pre-prelim moves test is pretty simple, what a so-called encouragement test should be. I'd gladly take that test over pre-Bronze, and save those dratted alt 3s for Bronze level. I'm certainly not feeling too encouraged by practicing them.

I agree, there should be grandfathering. In fact, from what Stormy describes, it sounds like nobody at the USFSA thought the no-grandfathering policy through when they instituted the MIF tests. Maybe they figured everyone who tested as a kid would go to Masters.

I also don't see the point in requiring "young adult" skaters to take standard track tests to compete at those levels, and then have to take adult tests from the beginning once they're 25. Why not allow anyone over 18 to take the adult tests and just separate the age groups for competition purposes. The way it's set up now, it punishes younger adult skaters - ironic since the young adult track was created to help teenage skaters who only tested at lower levels stay in the sport and transition to the adult track.

[jazzpants]

I agree that there SHOULD be some grandfather clause for those taking the standard MITF test. Of course, which standard test levels to goes with which Adult track test level is the part that gets tricky to figure out.

I do feel your pain on having to spend money on lessons and preparing for the Moves test, since I've been working on the Bronze Moves test for well over 2 years now and am JUST getting close to testing the darn thing (that was right before I got injured though) :evil: :x In fact, for the past few months, my lessons consists about 80-90% on the Bronze Moves. I have yet to worked on spins with my secondary coach except for our very first lesson and maybe two lessons on jumps. My primary coach has been working on spins lately b/c I have been able to do one runthrough of the Bronze Moves test per lesson and has been able to squeeze in some time at the end for spins. Jumps? RARELY!

However, I also have to realized that eventually I would have to learn how to "skate" in order to make it easier to do the more difficult jumps and spins. Also, I would like to "look like I know how to skate" (or "skate pretty" as my primary coach likes to say), so having to learn moves now and then work on jumps and spins later on gives me more of a competitive edge b/c I could do more interesting footwork stuff in my program. So... even though I HATE doing alternating 3turns like I hated eating veggies as a kid, I know that eventually that will come in handy for me. And certainly my lower back and joints will thank me later for NOT doing jumps! :lol:

BTW: I'm "technically" a "returning skater" but I'm really not if you read the What "Adult" means to USFSA (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13054) thread.

[Elsy2]

What irks me about one of the adults who was so vocal about implementing MIF was that she was already competing Adult Gold level. This change would not impact her at all, except that it would limit those moving up to her competitive level. The Adult Gold FS test is very similar to the Juvenile FS test. IMO the Novice move on the test is out of line.

Since this change, we have had only one brave soul test adult bronze MIF at our club.

As I look at the roster for a recent Michigan competition, I see that the Silver level was quite large, with the Bronze level much smaller. I suppose this is the result of those who pushed to test up prior to the implementation of the moves. The Bronze III group at AN didn't even have a qualifying round, they just went right to the final.

[vesperholly]

I agree that a no grandfathering clause is ludicrous. When I turn 25 in 16 months, I plan on competing at Silver. With no consistent axel or any doubles, I can't compete in Gold and certainly not in Masters.

I passed my Intermediate MIF almost three years ago, and will be testing Novice probably this summer. Hopefully I will pass by the time I'm 25. When I go back and test my Adult moves to compete at AN, after I pass my Gold test, the next standard track test is... Intermediate MIF! That makes no sense! I should not be taking *any* Adult MIF tests since I have obviously demonstrated that I can do all but one of the moves to standard test requirements, which are more stringent.

Not everyone is the same on MIF and freestyle levels, and it's narrow-minded for the USFSA to not understand that.

[dbny]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Not everyone is the same on MIF and freestyle levels, and it's narrow-minded for the USFSA to not understand that.

The USFSA loves to demonstrate how exclusive they are, and this is just one more way. It's snobbery rampant, IMO.

[manleywoman]

Sorry, I'm ignorant on this, and I'm an adult skater. But I passed my Adult Gold Free Test in 1998, my Intermediate Free and MIF in 1999-2000, Novice MIF in 2002 and Novice Free in 2003. So I've obviously been out of the Adult testing structure for a while and long before they implemented the new Adult MIF. So I'm a bit lost...

I understand that now in order to pass your Adult Free test you need to pass the corresponding MIF test first (similarly to standard track).

But you guys are saying that, using vesperholly's example, that if she's passed through Novice MIF already while under the age of 25, that because she hasn't passed the Intermediate Free test, that when she turns 25 she'll have to take the Adult Gold Free test and then start the standard track MIF again? Once you pass the Adult Gold Free, hasn't she passed all the Adutl tests? Why wouldn't she just take the Adult Gold free test and then be working on Junior MIF at that point?

Sorry I'm confused...how does the Adult MIF work if you've already passed standard track MIF tests?

[LoopLoop]

The standard track doesn't grandfather over at all. When Vesperholly turns 25, since she plans to compete in adult silver, she will have to test pre-bronze, bronze, and silver MIF and FS. Yes, even though she has passed intermediate MIF. And then if she wants to move up to gold she will have to test gold MIF and FS.

[flo]

It's a frustrating mess that's really hurt the adult program.
From Canam and Dave:
"Most serious adult skaters were doing MITF long before the adult tests were implemented. They may not have been doing them with testing in mind, but I can name only a handful of adult skaters (and I know many) who weren't at the very least doing them as part of an on-ice warm up."
Hi, I wasn't doing moves before the adult tests. I think that the lack of grandfathering for the moves, and for that matter the pairs is absurd. I agree with Dave, it's not been a good turn of events for the adult skaters who worked to get the program started, and have stuck with it for so long.
I would suggest that this thread, as well as the previous be sent to the adult chair.

[jenlyon60]

I have seen quite a few Adult MIF tests at the test sessions of my club. Of course, it's a very large club. We have MIF tests almost every month, and I'm guessing that no less frequently than every other month there is at least one adult testing MIF. And we've had them at all levels... Pre-Bronze through Gold. At the same time, we've also had adults continuing to test standard track MIF below the "cross-over" point.

I may not agree on the choice and arrangement of elements for the adult MIF tests, but I think the MIF requirement is helping the quality of many of the lower level adult skaters who are testing/competing USFSA. I noticed it this year at the WFSC NY Adult Invitational.

Me... I'm working on Adult Bronze MIF in between working on EW until last spring, Silver dances last spring/summer/fall, and now in between Paso/Blues. I will say that working on the MIF has helped my dance (except when I get lazy and "flicker foot" my 3-turns in dance).

[Sk8r4Life]

I think the reason that MITF Adult track was initiated was because adults felt like they were being overlooked and wanted a track of their own. Personally, I think that MITF are essential building blocks for overall skating skills. However, the adult track seems to be a sort of mismash of randomly chosen moves. The moves don't really build upon each other like they do in the standard track. In pre-Bronze there is a Prelim move, and in Silver a Pre-Pre move, which makes absolutely no sense. I think that not only should they grandfather in standard track tests, they should allow adults to do either the adult OR standard track MITF tests. But I don't think that adults should be exempt from MITF. Sure, those alternating 3's are not easy, but who ever said skating was easy? MITF build edge quality and presentation skills. These may not be essential to be able to compete, but they sure are if you want to get near the podium, and they will improve your overall skating quality. Who wouldn't want that?

Everyone should really be jumping for joy that they only have to do alternating 3's to the center, and not figure tests where you have to complete a full circle, with a 3-turn right in the middle, another same-sized cirlce with a 3, next to the first circle, and then skate right on top of the pattern 2 more times. Then the judges, who in the meantime have been standing about 2 feet away from you ON THE ICE the entire time, pace out the size of the circle and examine every inch of the circle to make sure there are only edges and not flats. And that is only the 1st figure test!:o

[skaternum]

Originally posted by Sk8r4Life
I think the reason that MITF Adult track was initiated was because adults felt like they were being overlooked and wanted a track of their own.

The Adult Skating Committee initially proposed an Adult Track for MITF in order to give adults another test track. As originally presented, the MITF tests were NOT tied to freeskating tests and vice versa. However, once the other USFSA committees got their hands on it, it was determined that the existing rules require you to pass the same level MITF test prior to taking the freeskating test. By assigning the Adult MITF tests the same levels (pre-bronze, bronze, silver, and gold) as the Adult freeskating tests, they unintentionally insured that we'd all be forced to pass the MITF tests before the freeskating tests.

So rather than scrap the idea or take more time to ponder the implications, the proposed rule change as amended was presented at Governing Council. It was a contentious debate and a very close vote. <sigh>

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by LoopLoop
The standard track doesn't grandfather over at all.

But even more confusing, the adult track DOES grandfather over to the standard track when you're finished! A skater can pass their Adult Gold MIF and then their next MIF test would be Intermediate MIF. Same for freestyle - when you pass your Adult Gold free, you can next take your Intermediate Free (after passing the Intermediate MIF of course).

This to me is even more unfair and makes absolutely no sense. Any adult moving up from Gold to Masters will have to do this. I think they should have never made the moves tests a pre-requisite and just had them as an additional track. Honestly, I don't think it was about the money (USFSA only collects $4 for every test), it was really people who couldn't understand how different adult skaters are from child skaters.

Anyways, what's the problem, I know some places where you can buy a passing test, I'll just go there. :roll:

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by vesperholly
But even more confusing, the adult track DOES grandfather over to the standard track when you're finished! A skater can pass their Adult Gold MIF and then their next MIF test would be Intermediate MIF. Same for freestyle - when you pass your Adult Gold free, you can next take your Intermediate Free (after passing the Intermediate MIF of course).

This to me is even more unfair and makes absolutely no sense. Any adult moving up from Gold to Masters will have to do this.

But i had to do that, and it makes sense to me. Before taking the Intermediate Free test i had to take the Intermediate MIF test first. To me, once you're "out" of the adult track and have passed all teh tests, why shouldn't they expect you to do the same tests as the kids?

Am i understanding you correctly? I'm wondering what about that doesn't make sense to you...do you think that once an adult over 25 passes all adult tests, that they should be able to take the standard freestyle tests WITHOUT taking the MIF too?

[jazzpants]

Okay, maybe this will help clear things up:

Scenario 1:
Say that you have passed up to the pre-Juv FS test and the Int. Moves test. When you turn 25, since you have not passed Juv FS test, you will have to start all over again on the Adult Track and take all prerequisite Adult moves AND FS test up to the Silver Moves AND FS test in order to compete as a Silver skater.

Scenario 2:
Say that you have passed up to and including the Int. FS test. When you turn 25, you now would have to compete at the Masters Novice level. But you do NOT have to test all those Adult Track tests to compete at that level b/c you already fulfilled that prerequisite.

Scenario 1 is where Jocelyn is currently at. Scenario 2 is what Jocelyn is describing as being "unfair."

Did I confused everyone yet? :lol:

[Stormy]

Originally posted by manleywoman
Am i understanding you correctly? I'm wondering what about that doesn't make sense to you...do you think that once an adult over 25 passes all adult tests, that they should be able to take the standard freestyle tests WITHOUT taking the MIF too?

I don't think that's what she meant (but I could be wrong). I think what Vesperholly meant was that it dosen't seem to make sense that a Gold skater moving up to Masters has to go back to standard track and do Intermediate MIF and Free. Perhaps it would make more sense to have a Masters MITF and Free tests in the Adult track, instead of "going back" to standard.

Additionally, and this just occured to me since Vesperholly mentioned it, an adult skater who passes all the tests up to Gold gets to go immediately to Intermediate in the standard track, without having to "repeat" Pre-Pre to Juv. But, an under 25 who has passed standard track tests DOES have to "repeat" what they've passed when they want to take adult tests! HOW is that fair??

[Michigansk8er]

it was really people who couldn't understand how different adult skaters are from child skaters.

Bingo! I was at Governing Council that year, and the line the skate mom delegates bought was "our kids have mandatory moves tests, so the adults should too". (Yes, most delegates are club board members....which are parents) Well, then.........let's have the kids take the adult gold moves test prior to their juv. fs test! :)There are so many nutty and inconsistent things with the moves that it's hard to know where to begin (and that is on both sides when you consider the grandfathering....or lack of...issue). Here's some of what I remember:

1. The moves were introduced to adults as a separate track.....then the rug was pulled and suddenly they were mandatory because "it's about time adults learn to skate" (quote from gold adult and supported by others). What an insult!

2. The USFSA membership chair said that if mandatory moves were passed it would be damaging to what had been done so far with adult skating, that the number of adult skaters would decline as a result, and that adults were valuable members of clubs and USFSA. Kudos to this guy!!!!!

3. It was proposed from the floor that the moves issue go back to committee because the moves themselves were all over the board, and the "mandatory" requirement was tagged on between adult sectional meetings and GC. This was shot down because it was reported from the then adult chair that adults wholeheartedly supported adult moves at these meetings. What she neglected to say was that we were told it would be an optional track.

4. Adults present stressed that adults are not the same as kids for a multitude of reasons, with time being a major issue for adult skaters, along with different goals (such as not aiming for the Olympics). That was pooh-poohed, and once again our gold skater said that if we adults were serious about skating, we'd just find the time.

The vote was close, thanks to the adults there that did what we could. I talked to a lot of delegates, and got votes changed...but not enough.

Like Flo, I was not doing moves either.......and I too have medaled at AN. I competed for my first time at 45. Since that time I have worked a bit on the Gold moves and given up. I don't have the time to learn the moves and an axel..........so I'll stay Silver for life. Not only is time an issue for me, but at my age my learning curve is a heck of a lot slower than a kid's. And speaking of Silver.........what's with the equivilent for Silver being the same as for Gold (no higher than juv fs)? We still have a ways to go before things are ironed out. Let's just hope that they eventually are.

Michigansk8er

[Stormy]

Originally posted by jazzpants
Okay, maybe this will help clear things up:

Scenario 1:
Say that you have passed up to the pre-Juv FS test and the Int. Moves test. When you turn 25, since you have not passed Juv FS test, you will have to start all over again on the Adult Track and take all prerequisite Adult moves AND FS test up to the Silver Moves AND FS test in order to compete as a Silver skater.

Scenario 2:
Say that you have passed up to and including the Int. FS test. When you turn 25, you now would have to compete at the Masters Novice level. But you do NOT have to test all those Adult Track tests to compete at that level b/c you already fulfilled that prerequisite.

Scenario 1 is where Jocelyn is currently at. Scenario 2 is what Jocelyn is describing as being "unfair."

Did I confused everyone yet? :lol:

LOL. Basically that repeated what I just posted. We must have posted at the same time. :) I can see why the system is there, but there are definitely some flaws. With such a diverse group of Adult skaters, though, returning and continuing...where's the happy medium?

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by Stormy
LOL. Basically that repeated what I just posted. We must have posted at the same time. :) I can see why the system is there, but there are definitely some flaws. With such a diverse group of Adult skaters, though, returning and continuing...where's the happy medium? LOL!!! We SUUUURE did!!! :lol:

[fadedstardust]

Okay, I'm not an adult skater, so my opinions may be irrelevant, but this is my opinion:

I'm seeing a lot of people unhappy about the fact that if they passed their standard track moves and free in the past, they don't hold over now that they are in the Adult track. The ONLY area in which I do think it's a shame is money spent on the actual test. But skating is very expensive if you plan on competing (adult or not) so at that point, what's three more tests to pay for? I really don't think it's a bad idea NOT to grandfather, because...again money aside, it's either you can still pass the tests, or you can't. If you passed your Juvenile MITF 5 years ago and now you can't pass your Silver, then you SHOULD have to start all over again. Most skaters want to be held back to win competitions...what is the point in having your old tests hold over when you can't do the moves anymore? You'd be seriously hindering yourself, competing against people who HAVE recently passed those tests. If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it. That's like if I took my Senior tests and then took 5 years off and could barely do singles. I wouldn't have to take the tests over, but I'd have to be able to pass and surpass them before I'd even have a shot at being able to compete properly. The stuff on these tests are stuff you need, anyway. It's frustrating to do it all over again, yeah...but it's just gonna make you a better skater. It's worth the extra 6 months or however long you spend passing it. That's my opinion, but obviously I'm not in your shoes. Good luck to everyone either way. Those tests are passable, I swear!! :D

-FadedStardust

[fadedstardust]

I'd also like to add one thing that I hope no one takes wrong but that I feel needs to be said:

I, like the rest of you, don't enjoy working on moves for an hour a day. I like working on exciting new spins and showy jumps. But even though the sport's changed, I think a lot of people forget what figure skating IS. Back in the figures era (which was before my time, but it doesn't mean I can't appreciate it) ALL the emphasis was on moves. ISU already did everyone a favor in cutting costs and time for practicing those figures by replacing the requirement with moves in the field, which in all honesty are a piece of cake compared to figures. But moves are an INTEGRAL part of skating. Especially if you don't plan on going to the Olympics, moves should come BEFORE the double jumps, before the axel, they should be more important, and you should want to do them, otherwise why are you skating and what about it do you like so much if you don't like the basic steps you'll use EVERY day once you learn them? I'm not talking just about the people on this board, but in general, I think it's sad for people to dislike doing such an integral part of their sport. You don't hear anyone complain about having to repeat freestyle tests. Just those "damn moves". How can you decide to go to Adult Nationals and not have enough time to work on your basic skills? It makes no sense to me. Could someone maybe explain their point of view? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks :)

-FadedStardust

[skaternum]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
Okay, I'm not an adult skater, so my opinions may be irrelevant, but this is my opinion:

I really don't think it's a bad idea NOT to grandfather, because...again money aside, it's either you can still pass the tests, or you can't.<snip> If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it. <snip> It's worth the extra 6 months or however long you spend passing it. That's my opinion, but obviously I'm not in your shoes. <snip> Those tests are passable, I swear!!

It's not that your opinions are irrelevant, but until you've been in our boots, I take them with a grain of salt. :) The problem with your logic of "if you can't pass the test now, you shouldn't be skating at that level" is that USFSA forces you to skate at that level. If I passed my Juveile fs test 5 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago (hyperbole, yes), USFSA will not allow me to skate any lower than SILVER! I don't have the option of adult testing up to my current skill level. USFSA forces me to take 6 separate tests in order just to compete! They want to consider your previous standard track tests only when it suits them -- when they want to force you to compete at a certain level. They will discount your previous tests when it suits you -- when you don't want to retest a bunch of skills. Personally, I agree that you should be required to compete at a certain level if you've passed the standard tests, but I also think you should be given "credit" for already passing them.

Most of the people who make the same argument you do about "if you did the skills once, you should be able to do it again" are overlooking two things. (1) The fundamental unfairness of it. (2) The difficulty of skating as an adult. Try juggling a full time job, kids, spouse, the responsibilities of every day living, possibly caring for aging parents, AND skating a few hours a week. Try dealing with wide hips, breasts that have nursed a child, muscles that dont' respond like they used to, and joints that argue with you all the time. We're not out to win the Olympics, but we want the opportunity to test and compete in a manner that is appropriate for ADULTS. We're not kids, no matter how much some may like to pretend we are. We contribute a great deal to individual clubs and USFSA as a whole. We take our skating seriously, sure, but we're really just in it for fun.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by manleywoman
Am i understanding you correctly? I'm wondering what about that doesn't make sense to you...do you think that once an adult over 25 passes all adult tests, that they should be able to take the standard freestyle tests WITHOUT taking the MIF too?

No, sorry, I should have qualified my answer. I think it is unfair that grandfathering is okay in one aspect (grandfathering the lower-standard Adult MIF in place of Standard tests), but not in another (grandfathering the harder moves into Adult tests).

[skaternum]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
How can you decide to go to Adult Nationals and not have enough time to work on your basic skills? It makes no sense to me. Could someone maybe explain their point of view? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks :)



Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that I *do* work on my basic skills. I split my time up equally amongst moves and freestyle. Always have, before the mandatory moves came into place. I recognize that they're important.

But ... I only skate 4 hours a week. I compete because it's challenging to put a program together, and it's a lot of fun to hang out with other adult skaters for a weekend. Adult comps are much more laid back than kiddie comps. So I *will* compete in adult comps, no matter what. How much progress do you think I can make in 4 hours a week, if I'm trying to put together a program and get it trained for a competition AND get a set of Moves ready for a test? The answer is, almost none. It takes most adults a long time to get Moves testable. It's a trade off. I can make good progress on my freeskating program, or I can make good progress on my Moves, but not both at the same time. As an adult, recreational skater, I think I deserve the right to choose. Those of us who want to place high in competitions will attend to the basic skating issue, trust me. "Skating" with flow, depth, etc. is usually what separates the wheat from the chaff in adult competitons. I routinely place ahead of adults who have harder tricks in their programs. I value skating, not tricks. But I don't think the USFSA should have instituted mandatory Moves for adults. (See previous post about why we're different, and why I don't think the "kid rules" are particularly appropriate for us.)

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
If you passed your Juvenile MITF 5 years ago and now you can't pass your Silver, then you SHOULD have to start all over again. Most skaters want to be held back to win competitions...what is the point in having your old tests hold over when you can't do the moves anymore? You'd be seriously hindering yourself, competing against people who HAVE recently passed those tests. If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it.

But adult competitions are all based on old tests anyways! If you passed your Novice Free back in 1970 and took thirty years off, you still have to compete Masters. There is no way to track who can no longer do the moves and who still can. That is too time-consuming and possibly prejudicial.

My complaint is the time and expense to do this. I have no doubt that I could pass all my Adult MIF tests. But it's very difficult for me to get to a test session since I work, and what precious practice time I can make it, to I prefer to work on freestyle and my Novice MIF. Doing the adult moves is simply a waste of time.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
The ONLY area in which I do think it's a shame is money spent on the actual test.Hmmm? Let's see now....

Assuming Jocelyn's case but for my skating club...

$95 to pass Pre-Bronze, Bronze and Silver Moves
+ $95 to pass Pre-Bronze, Bronze and Silver FS test
+ extra coaching cost to go over the moves and patterns, etc.
+ extra coaching cost for lost time from going off on doing Novice Moves tests to do these tests.

I would not count JUST the cost of taking the tests! I would also add cost for coaching, travel, ice time, time to take off work to do test, etc.

Now does it sound economical to you? Don't know about you, but it sure scares me! :twisted:

[Michigansk8er]

And don't forget the cost of music cut to different lengths for the freestyle tests along with choreography. It's ridiculous to have to redo all of that stuff. Things could be really simplified if USFSA had just made the adult track to follow the standard track with Juv moves & fs equaling Adult Gold moves & fs. The freestyle tests nearly do, it's the moves structure that's the problem.

Back to moves, I never worked on "official" moves until I injured my back and decided to work on my gold moves. I eventually dropped them as a hopeless cause (I swear, that Novice end pattern in the wrong direction was going to be the end of me). I was not having fun, and it was costing me a fortune. I have plenty of footwork, etc, in my programs, and I prefer to focus on that with the time I have on the ice. I think it's having those choices (where we spend our time on the ice and our money.......since most of us are limited in both regards) that is important to most adults. I might think differently if I were younger, but at 50 it's all I can do to hang onto the skills I have.........not be thrown another hurdle.

[Chico]

I'm an adult skater. I have to admit that I love jumping and probably would be happy doing this entirely. Saying that, moves are coming in at a close second. I like the black and white of them. Either their right or their not. I like all the little pieces. (Head, shoulder, arm, hip, etc. Such a callenge!) The best part of moves is that they make you a better skater in every way. (You only have to look at a skater to see this.)Spins, jumps, and programs are made of moves. Effort well spent in my opinion. If you want to be taken seriously as a skater you need to work on them. Well, my opinion.I'm working on regular moves. No adult track. My coach feels that I'm capable of learning them, and I want to try. My skating goal is to progress, not pass tests. (This is just me.)

Chico

[Michigansk8er]

I'm working on regular moves. No adult track. My coach feels that I'm capable of learning them, and I want to try. My skating goal is to progress, not pass tests.

If you aren't testing them, you are in the same boat with a lot of adults. The adult moves are not different from the regular track moves....they are just in a different order, some are skipped, and most are of a more difficult level for the corresponding freestyle level (such as the gold moves test is mostly intermediate moves, with a Novice move tossed in for good measure). Anyhow, just wanted to note that the adult moves series is made up of the regular track moves, not entirely different ones...and that the regular track is not somehow superior.

I hope your coach convinces you to test someday (but then, you know that :D ). It's the best way to gauge your progress and move forward. I like the sense of accomplishment.

[LWalsh]

I guess I will chime in. In terms of grandfathering and restrictions of testing levels I got the short end of the stick here. The Juvenile level is the one that gets whacked the hardest.

I passed Juvenile FS as a child (20 years ago) when there was no axel as a requirement. Consequently I am required to compete no lower than Silver. This means that I had to take 4 tests (took pre-B + bronze before the moves requirement) before I could ever step foot on ice at Sectionals or Nationals. That's $400 in tests + $$ for coaching for stuff I already passed 20 years ago. :x Had I passed even one more level as a kid I would go straight into Masters (and get my butt kicked, but that's another story)

But here's where it get's even wierder. Let's say I wanted to test moves on the standard track...My next moves would be Intermediate because they can't force me to back track after passing Juvenile FS. At the same time, I have to start from the begining on the adult track if I want to compete as an adult OR try to pass Intermediate moves and FS to compete in masters. So in theory a person like me could take Intermediate moves and Adult Pre-Bronze in the same testing session! How stupid is that?

So the arguement that if I could do it before, I could do it now, just doesn't hold water because the requirements have changed. I think it would have been fair to allow me to compete at Silver level (if that's where they want me, fine) but not force me to take all those tests over again. What for?

Now having said that, I think moves are important and I do like them. BUt I do resent the lack of grandafathering. If you took the cooresponding standard test (as a kid or adult) I don't think you should be forced to re-test.


Just my .02

[Sk8r4Life]

I completely agree that not grandfathering standard track moves in place of the adult moves is ridiculous, especially when they are grandfathered in the opposite direction. But for those of you saying that moves are a waste of your time or you don't have time to do them, shame on you! After USFSA got rid of figures as part of qualifying competitions, we started seeing an explosion of "jumping beans", little girls who could do triple jumps but could barely hold an edge. Should figure skating really be only about the jumps? I would have thought most adult skaters would disagree with this.

Additionally, mastering the moves will make the fun, showy things, and jumps and spins a lot easier for you, and you will look prettier doing it.

Over the last spring/summer (April 2003-September 2003), I passed the following tests:
Pre-Bronze MITF and FS
Bronze MITF and FS
Pre-Juvenile MITF
Juvenile MITF
Silver MITF

I was going to take Intermediate MITF in November, but I had an injury and was off the ice for about 8 weeks. I will probably take those and Gold MITF, Silver FS, and Pre-Juvenile FS sometime in the next few months. I skate about 5 hours a week, and I am not just working on moves, but also learning new jumps and preparing for competitions. It can be done if you just work at it. I think it sucks that I have to pay so much $$ to take "duplicate" tests, but at the same time I also like it. Since the adult tests have a lower passing standard, I can use them as a "warmup" for the standard track tests. For example, I took adult Silver MITF and Juvenile MITF on the same day. I was a little wobbly for the silver (nerves) but by the time I got to Juvenile, I was more calm.

I also really like working on moves (I love slide chasses) and I feel they have really helped my overall skating a lot.

[dcden]

Originally posted by LWalsh
I passed Juvenile FS as a child (20 years ago) when there was no axel as a requirement. Consequently I am required to compete no lower than Silver. This means that I had to take 4 tests (took pre-B + bronze before the moves requirement) before I could ever step foot on ice at Sectionals or Nationals... I have to start from the begining on the adult track if I want to compete as an adult OR try to pass Intermediate moves and FS to compete in masters. So in theory a person like me could take Intermediate moves and Adult Pre-Bronze in the same testing session! How stupid is that?

I believe that if you've passed preBronze and Bronze free, then you are at least grandfathered up to adult Silver moves. So, in order to meet the Silver requirement, you can skip Adult preBronze and Bronze moves, and take Silver moves and free to compete at Nationals.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by Sk8r4Life
But for those of you saying that moves are a waste of your time or you don't have time to do them, shame on you!
I haven't seen anyone here say that moves are a waste of their time. But thanks for the chastisement.

Should figure skating really be only about the jumps? I would have thought most adult skaters would disagree with this.
No, and no one is saying that. You're jumping to conclusions. Those of us who are opposed to mandatory Moves are not necessarily opposed to Moves in general.

Over the last spring/summer (April 2003-September 2003), I passed the following tests: <snip>
Very impressive, but atypical of adult skaters.

Once again: (1) I started testing Moves before they became mandatory for adults. I value them as part of my skating. But I am opposed to them being mandatory for all adults who want to test and compete. (2) Given the current state of the rules, I find the absence of adult-to-standard track grandfathering objectionable.

[flo]

First, Michagan skater : Yes, I agree!

From fadedstardust "If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it."
That's the difference with adults. We are not as fixated on the winning, but more the skating. The "point" of it is to enjoy skating. As pointed out, these tests are quite a bit of money and time. Your argument is based on a kid skating viewpoint, and is shared by much of the USFSA. We need to have the adult program suit the participating actual adults, not a vague perception of what an adult skater should be.
I agree that moves "can" make a better skater, but it's not true that if a skater chooses (again adult word) not to spent what skating time and money they have on moves that they will not be "skaters" or "competitive".
I started as an adult and did not do figures or moves. I have not tested any since the adult moves structure was thrust apon us. I have no problem in putting my edges up against any adult at my level - moves or not.

[LWalsh]

Yes, and that's what I did. It was still 4 tests. Pre Bronze FS, Bronze FS, Silver Moves, and Silver FS. I did in fact take and pass all of these and I will be at Nationals :D Yippee! I can't wait. It was just a long time and several $$ getting there.

I was pointing out that now another skater with the same record could continue on the standard track and take Int. MITF while also persuing the Adult track and have to take Pre-Bronze moves. In fact even somebody who passed Int. MITF would still have to start at Adult Pre-Bronze moves because it's the freestyle test that determines in/eligibility. That's what doesn't make sense.

For me, that was the path I was told I had to take. I wanted to go to nationals, so I took the tests. I think they (USFS) could at least allow grandfathering of moves if not Freestyle. I kind of feel I got penalized for having passed a test as child that I'm not even capable of skating up to. (hate to admit that one) I have heard of some people who are now married (usng another name) and don't admit that they ever passed anything previously. Very bad. That's another discussion though.

On the other hand...

If they allowed grandfathering in a situation like this, it exposes a potention problem with someone younger who only took off from skating for college, turned 25 and now wants to compete as an adult. A juvenile competitor who kept skating and is now 25 would have a huge advantage over someone who learned as an adult or took off a few decades. While grandfathering might make it easier for a person like this, they'd probably breeze through the tests anyway.

So what should we do?

The grandfathering issue is one that should be brought up again to the adult committee. Maybe something like what the New York Classic does would be a starting point. They allow you to skate at your adult level if the "disqualifying" test occurred more than 10 years ago. I think we might see some older skaters reappearing on the scene if they tried this. In fact I know of a few that would.

The existence of the requirement to pass MITF as a prerequisite to FS I agree with, and would not want to see changed. I think that perhaps as adult skating evolves we might see other levels inserted into the structure much in the same way the standard track ended up with those pre-pre tests. Heck, there was a time when Novice was the first test.

[Sk8r4Life]

Originally posted by skaternum
I haven't seen anyone here say that moves are a waste of their time. But thanks for the chastisement.


No, and no one is saying that. You're jumping to conclusions. Those of us who are opposed to mandatory Moves are not necessarily opposed to Moves in general.


Very impressive, but atypical of adult skaters.

Once again: (1) I started testing Moves before they became mandatory for adults. I value them as part of my skating. But I am opposed to them being mandatory for all adults who want to test and compete. (2) Given the current state of the rules, I find the absence of adult-to-standard track grandfathering objectionable.

It sounds like I may have offended you, and I apologize. The general feeling that I was getting from this thread was that *some* people didn't want to spend their skating time working on MITF. We are in agreement on the absence of grandfathering. Adults should have the option to test either Adult or standard track moves, and not have to do both. I guess I don't understand why you would be in favor of Moves, but not in favor of testing Moves. Testing Freestyle is a way to establish your competitive level. In the past Figures, and now Moves tests, are a way to establish the level of your overall skating ability. Lots of non-skaters that I know are amazed that there is even such a thing as skating tests! But that's how it has been for a very long time and I don't think it will change. It seems to me like adult skaters want to be taken seriously, in the same way as kid skaters. However, we can't have it both ways.

[flo]

We adults can, and should be taken seriously and without having to conform to kid standards and a outdated program that does not fit who and what we are. Determining your skating level by figures and moves may have been done for a very long time for kids, but that does not mean that it is what should be done now for adults. Also, as far as "I guess I don't understand why you would be in favor of Moves, but not in favor of testing Moves". Working on moves and testing them are two very different things. Getting the moves in a state to test, exactly the way the judges think they should be requires a significant amount of time far beyond what it takes to master the elements themselves. One can learn the moves and improve their skating without going through the testing "experience".

[Michigansk8er]

I agree that we should not have to conform to kid standards to be taken seriously. Adult Nationals (which is a sign that someone was taking us seriously) existed prior to moves. If the goal is for adults to be like the kids they might as well ditch the adult structure and have us all take the standard track tests. The thing is, we aren't kids. The great thing about adult skating is that we consider everyone that puts on a pair of skates, a skater. Adults encourage one another at every level. The comments about adults needing to learn to skate did not come from the stands, but from non-adult skater judges and USFSA. The issue that irks me the most is that we were lied to by being told the moves would be optional, and supported it....and then the mandatory "twist" was added.

My goal is to skate like Flo...........she's awesome, and it's her presentation skills I'm after!!!!!!

Another thought on the "when are adults going to learn to skate" issue......how many low level kids have great skating skills at the pre-axel levels? Are there greater expectations from adults because we are bigger, the level of our skating is more obvious, and we are lacking in distracting "cute points"? Just curious.

[Sk8r4Life]

Originally posted by flo
Also, as far as "I guess I don't understand why you would be in favor of Moves, but not in favor of testing Moves". Working on moves and testing them are two very different things. Getting the moves in a state to test, exactly the way the judges think they should be requires a significant amount of time far beyond what it takes to master the elements themselves. One can learn the moves and improve their skating without going through the testing "experience".

I'm not sure that I agree with this either. If you truly have mastered the moves, you should be able to test and pass with no problem. If you and your coach feel that you have mastered the moves, but you are still unable to pass, you might want to arrange for a judging critique, so the judge can tell you what you are doing wrong. Most judges are happy to do this, and since they are volunteers it is free of charge.

Also, without testing, how do you really know that you have mastered the moves? You really do need to master the beginning moves to go on to more advanced moves because they build on each other. For example, if you can't do the Pre-Juv and Silver 3-turns in the field, how will you ever do the Juv and Gold double 3-turns?

Many clubs also offer incentives for passing tests, in the form of scholarships to support competition entry fees and coaching fees.

Hey, if you pass your Adult Gold moves, you get a gold medal! Not many skaters can say that they have a gold medal in a skating discipline.

As you can see, I am in favor of training and testing moves (though I do think that standard track should be able to be substituted for adult). I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Also, I haven't seen any of you skate, so I am not saying that anyone here would be a better skater with moves. I just know that for myself, my skating improved a lot once I started working on them.

[Debbie S]

As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, my coach believes the judges are harder on adults. She suggested that the judges would react to a 7-year-old with poor posture or wobbly edges (or more strokes/lobes than allowed) by thinking that it's because they're little and will grow into their bodies and eventually will be less awkward and more powerful. If a judge sees an adult with wobbly edges or awkward leans, their reaction is that adults should know better and that if they don't "send the message" that what the skater is doing is wrong now, he/she will never learn.

I wish Governing Council wasn't the weekend before my last week of b-school classes. Otherwise, I'd ask the president of my skating club to send me as a rep. Is the adult moves structure on the agenda for GC? Perhaps I'll visit the USFSA website and seek out an e-mail address for the adult chair/contact person and express my views (politely, of course :)).

[Sk8r4Life]

Debbie,
I'm sorry that this has been the experience with judges in your area. I have seen the same thing, judges passing tiny little girls who, although cute, don't really have moves at a passing level. Usually this happens at the beginner levels. I think that Juvenile is the level where they start really holding skaters accountable for not being able to do the moves up to standard.

I have also seen it the other way around--adult skaters that looked like they weren't able to do 1 or 2 of the moves, but passing anyway without a reskate. Both situations are unfair IMO.

I think that part of the reason this may be occurring is because the adult MITF are so new. Any time something new is introduced, there are growing pains. It's an adjustment for skaters, coaches, and judges. Hopefully with time this will change.

[Michigansk8er]

You really do need to master the beginning moves to go on to more advanced moves because they build on each other

This is one of the issues with the adult structure........they don't build like the standard track does. It's made for an even more difficult situation for adults wanting to test adult moves. This was mentioned at GC, but pretty much ignored.

I doubt adult moves are on this year's GC agenda. Is anyone going this year, and if so, have you received a copy of this year's proposals yet? I'd be curious to know if there are any new changes being proposed for adults. I heard for the standard track a double axel will be required for Senior FS (if it passes, that is). That's all I've heard.

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Sk8r4Life

Many clubs also offer incentives for passing tests, in the form of scholarships to support competition entry fees and coaching fees.


Where is this club, and how, where and when can I sign up?? Seriously, I've never heard of that before!! That's excellent if you have that opportunity.

I think you seem to be in a unique situation from most of us...you're duplicating tests because you want to. You want to do both tracks, and that commendable! But I am doing it because I HAVE to in order to skate Adult. Maybe you don't mind...but a lot of people DO.

People are just annoyed at the basic lack of sense in the whole Adult MITF structure, and the gray areas and confusion with grandfathering (or lack thereof!!).

And no, skating shouldn't be all about jumps, however, with the exception of say 10 to 15 Adult skaters in the COUNTRY (I could be off on this number, sorry if I am), we're not doing double axles and triples. It's just not a fair comparison....adult skaters with the "jumping beans". :)

As for the GC proposals, they aren't out yet, believe me, I am watching for them at my club!! As soon as I can get my hands on it, I can post what's on the adult agenda.

[jenlyon60]

Originally posted by Debbie S
As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, my coach believes the judges are harder on adults. She suggested that the judges would react to a 7-year-old with poor posture or wobbly edges (or more strokes/lobes than allowed) by thinking that it's because they're little and will grow into their bodies and eventually will be less awkward and more powerful. If a judge sees an adult with wobbly edges or awkward leans, their reaction is that adults should know better and that if they don't "send the message" that what the skater is doing is wrong now, he/she will never learn.



I'm not sure they are harder around where I live... I've seen a heck of a lot of kids' Preliminary MIF tests get retried lately... a lot more than in previous years. Don't know if coaches are putting the kids out too soon, or if there's a move afoot to tighten up on the passing standard.

[Stormy]

I don't think the judges are necessarily harder in my area either, I just believe they don't know adult moves have different passing standards.

[Chico]

Well, I don't agree that you need to test to "pass" skill levels. My coach "tests" me, and she isn't a push over as a "judge". Some folks here don't want to spend lesson/practice time learning and working on moves. I don't want to spend the time or money taking tests. Some time down the road this could change, but I'm happy "passing" skills with my coach. No, adults shouldn't try to live up to kid skaters. Just themselves. However, I do think you need to learn moves if your serious about improving as a skater. Learning the harder skills does have alot to do with how strong your basic skills are. I have seen a few adults trying doubles, etc. without them and it is scary. (Their life may not pass before their eyes, but it does mine.) Skating is made of choices, especially as adults. We each need to make our own choices about what is right for us. As for the Grandfather thing, I think they should start testing where they are at the moment. Maybe there should be just a testing level for child/adult returners. I was told the adult track on moves, coach, was less demanding. (Personally I don't know.)

Chico

[peaches]

Originally posted by Debbie S
As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, my coach believes the judges are harder on adults.

Around my area, I'd say the opposite is true. The judges look at adult skaters and say "Oh them. Well it's good enough for an adult, so we'll pass them." :roll: I really hate that and I don't do things that way, but a LOT of coaches and judges are like that. They let the little things slide and in doing that do a disservice to the adult skating community, IMO.

Since this was in the earlier discussion, my personal definition of an adult skater is someone who started skating as an adult, after high school, 18 or older.

[Michigansk8er]

I was told the adult track on moves, coach, was less demanding. (Personally I don't know.)

You really need to buy a rulebook so you know exactly what moves are at each level. Don't take your coach's word for it. The adult moves maybe interpreted as less demanding because the judging criteria is slightly lower........however, the moves themselves for each level are far more difficult. It really angers me when coaches think the standard track is somehow superior. I've spent a lot of time working on the Gold moves, and believe me, they are VERY demanding. I'd much rather be working on Juvenile moves like the kids at my freestyle test level.

I also think that as a recreational skater (which I might become too, if I ever get back on the ice) it's hard for you to understand the adult competitor. We need to pass tests in order to compete. We don't have the same choices that you do. We need to spend a lot of our time perfecting our programs..........and believe me, if you ever get a program to play around with, it will shed a whole new light on the time and difficulty factor.

The argument at GC about adult moves was not to improve the quality of jumps and spins. It was mentioned that adults CAN jump and spin, but "when are they going to learn to skate". Moves in the Field are all of the in-betweens in a program, not just a set of tests. It was never mentioned that they were building blocks for jumps and spins. Since figures were eliminated, the complaint with young skaters has been the lack of edge quality, etc. and a generation of little jumping beans. I guess I'm just not sure I see the connection between an adult's scary double attempt and mandatory moves tests....when you consider the jumping bean factor.

I prefer to work on program specific "moves", as well as "moves" that target areas that my coach thinks I need to strengthen. I'm just lucky that it really is no longer an issue for me. I will never learn an axel at my age, so there is no need for me to sweat out a required moves test. I know I'll never test Gold freestyle anyhow. The only reason I learned the gold moves was to give me something to do while healing from a back injury. I applaud everyone who has passed that test. That novice move end pattern in the wrong direction is a killer. I can guarantee I'd never put that in a program......unless crashing into the boards fits with my music. LOL!

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
That novice move end pattern in the wrong direction is a killer. I can guarantee I'd never put that in a program......unless crashing into the boards fits with my music. LOL!

Aww, come on. I only crashed into the boards 4 or 5 times on that move. It was the power circles on the Intermediate test that sent me into the boards all of the time :lol:

Joking aside, this does bring up a good point. There is an injury factor on these higher moves tests, especially where the primary focus is power. My back was messed up for about a month from my last power circle crash (ironically done in the warm up for the test itself). Personally, I'd rather fall on a double salchow than a bracket any day (and I had plenty of bracket falls working on both the Gold and Intermediate tests). It takes us a bit longer to recover from those kinds of falls/injuries than the kids.

I still support and like the idea of doing moves (I'm insane - I'll be starting the Novice moves right after AN), but the injury factor is food for thought.

[Stormy]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Personally, I'd rather fall on a double salchow than a bracket any day (and I had plenty of bracket falls working on both the Gold and Intermediate tests). It takes us a bit longer to recover from those kinds of falls/injuries than the kids.


Amen to that!! I hate bracket falls. And it's ALWAYS the very first one, the RFO. I just catch the edge on the turn and bang. I'm never worried about any bracket after that first one. Once in a while I'll click blades and fall during the power circles too. Moves falls are definitely worse than jump falls.

[Sk8r4Life]

Since this was in the earlier discussion, my personal definition of an adult skater is someone who started skating as an adult, after high school, 18 or older.

Hey, so does this mean since I am not really an adult skater, I don't have to take the adult tests and can just do standard track?:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can understand the frustration that those skaters who started as adults have. I think that every skater, no matter when they started, experiences frustrations and feelings of unfairness. I started testing and competing USFSA when I was about 14, which was very old compared to most skaters. I already had the body of an adult, and because of age and test restrictions, I was never able to compete at a qualifying level.

Additionally, competing as a kid is much more difficult than competing as an adult, mostly because of numbers. In any given regional competition, there are probably at least 100 Intermediate Ladies competing. Most of them will not even come near the podium. This isn't "fair" either. It's great that skaters who may have been rather unsuccessful as kids can get a second chance as adults. I'm not saying that this should be at the expense of skaters who began as adults. Everyone deserves an equal chance. The "returning skaters" may sometimes have an advantage, but probably just because they have been skating for a longer time. Often the "adult skaters" have the advantage in time and skill. They may also have the advantage in enthusiasm--at a recent competition I met a woman (in her 40's?) who was competing in Bronze for the first time. She had been skating only about a year or two (I think?) and was so excited about skating. Her technique was not perfect but she put all her heart into it and ended up in 4th place. I think she got 2nd in Artistic!

Many "returning skaters" experience lots of frustration, too, because they can't skate like they used to! When I first started skating again, I used to get very upset because I couldn't land the same jumps or center my spins. It's extremely frustrating to regress in your skills, as I am sure anyone who has lost a jump knows.

What I am trying to say is there should be a place for everyone. It's impossible to make generalizations about "adults" or "returning" skaters. We are all adults after all! Sorry for getting somewhat off-topic.

As far as adult judging standards go, the adult track individual moves are exactly the same as the standard track individual moves, just grouped together differently. The difference is that the passing score for adults is lower. For example, the passing score for the standard track Juv test is 3.0--the average score for all the Juv moves must be at least 3.0 per move. However, for Adult Silver (sort of equivalent to Juv) the passing standard is 2.7. There are supposedly different standards for adults, for example some toe pushing on crossovers is allowed, short two-footing just before stepping forward on alternating 3's. But I don't think most judges know about or take these into consideration. I'm pretty sure that they are not listed on the judge's score sheet, but I don't have any here to look at. Here is a link to the adult MITF standards:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf

[Michigansk8er]

I landed on my knees on a bracket fall once. They haven't been the same since. You just don't have the slide on a moves fall that you do on a jump fall.

Go for it sk8er1064. You are a moves goddess!!!!! Your footwork rocks!!!! :D

[Sk8r4Life]

Originally posted by Stormy
Amen to that!! I hate bracket falls. And it's ALWAYS the very first one, the RFO. I just catch the edge on the turn and bang. I'm never worried about any bracket after that first one. Once in a while I'll click blades and fall during the power circles too. Moves falls are definitely worse than jump falls.

Yes, moves falls are the worst! I had a serious injury recently due to a bracket fall--I turned the RFO bracket ok, but possibly when I was swinging my free leg back I kicked my other leg, or maybe I was just going too slow and lost my balance, but anyway I fell down, and on the way down the heel of my blade stabbed into my calf. I left a pool of blood on the ice and I had to have 15 stitches. I have been scared to do brackets since!

[Michigansk8er]

Adult Silver (sort of equivalent to Juv)

But the Silver freestyle test is actually pretty much equivalent to pre-juv. That is where the inequity comes in......so perhaps they are balancing the more difficult moves with a lower passing score? But like many of have said......a good percentage of the judges don't seem to know the adult scoring standards.

The adults I really feel bad for are the ones that have been off the ice for 20 years or so, and are forced to pass all of the moves and freestyle tests to be able to compete. I can't even comprehend how overwhelming that must feel, and I'm sure in some cases, just not possible. In that respect, I'm sure glad I started as an adult.

[iceskaterdawn]

I fell and fractured my shoulder in two places trying to work on one of the 3 turn patterns in the Silver MITF. A year of surgery and physical therapy and my shoulder is just now starting to feel better. I've decided that if I do return to the ice (now I don't have the time to skate), I'm staying at the Bronze level forever, because I am not going to stress myself out trying to perfect and test the moves. I don't have the time or the money for the extra lessons. Besides, I an't afford any more injuries. I've fallen on jumps plenty of times, and have never gotten seriously hurt. However I've broken 3 other joints in addition to my shoulder doing footwork and edgework type moves.

[flo]

:oops: Thanks Michagansk8er!
I spoke with Maggie Harding, the adult chair, and I would suggest that anyone with concerns contact her. I think there's a feeling that the same people are "whining " about moves and the extent and number of adults who have concerns about the situation is not adequately characterized. I would like to see a comprehensive questionnaire put to the adults at Nationals (for a start) and the results made available to the community. In this way there will be a clear understanding of who we are and what we need in the adult program - not just for the moves issues, but others as well and the program as a whole. This information could then be used as a basis for any proposed changes, and not one ill-informed skater at GC insisting that "adults learn to skate".
I have volunteered to conduct the survey ( I do this regularly as part of my research work)at this year's Nationals, as I know that Maggie has her plate full. However, she believes that concerns or suggestions raised could not be adequately addressed at present, and suggested this be conducted next year.
I've also been advised to conduct it anyway, as it would be valuable. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Aww, come on. I only crashed into the boards 4 or 5 times on that move. It was the power circles on the Intermediate test that sent me into the boards all of the time :lol: I can't help but think of 3 words: "OLYMPIC SIZE RINK!!!!" :lol:

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by flo
I have volunteered to conduct the survey ( I do this regularly as part of my research work)at this year's Nationals, as I know that Maggie has her plate full. However, she believes that concerns or suggestions raised could not be adequately addressed at present, and suggested this be conducted next year.
I've also been advised to conduct it anyway, as it would be valuable. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. Can I take the survey? I'll bet there are quite a few competitors who won't be able to make it to AN for one reason or another (financials, injuries, etc...), as well as those who ARE working hard to make it. (Maybe an online survey?) :D

[flo]

Sure,
I was thinking of something on-line as well. I'll get started on it.

[LoopLoop]

I won't be at AN but will definitely fill out an online survey.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by flo
Sure,
I was thinking of something on-line as well. I'll get started on it. In fact, to make life simpler for you ;) , they even have FREE Online Survey websites! (They have EVERYTHING on the Internet!) :mrgreen: Just do a Google on "Free Online Survey" and you'll find an eyeful. 8O

[Michigansk8er]

I would love to fill out a survey too.

[Stormy]

As would I, on-line would be awesome from those of us who aren't going to AN. That's really an excellent idea!!!! I'm really excited at the prospect of getting real thoughts and data to back our "whinings" up!! :)

[tazsk8s]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
But the Silver freestyle test is actually pretty much equivalent to pre-juv. That is where the inequity comes in......so perhaps they are balancing the more difficult moves with a lower passing score? But like many of have said......a good percentage of the judges don't seem to know the adult scoring standards.


This is the part that bugs me. Even if the judges are aware of the adult scoring standards, I don't think there's any agreement as to what that really means. For Silver (the ones I am working on), what does a 2.7 mark really mean on the Intermediate move which has a passing mark of 3.3 on the standard track? Taz Jr. is working on her Intermediate moves so we both have this one going. She is probably a couple of months from testing these yet but I feel pretty safe in saying she'd score well above a 2.7 if she tested tomorrow. She'd probably have to skate it pretty dreadfully to score that low. So what does that 2.7 really translate to for us on the adult track?

[tazsk8s]

Reading a little further along, I would also be interested in filling out an online survey!

[Michigansk8er]

So what does that 2.7 really translate to for us on the adult track?

I'm sure to the majority of the judges it is just a number......and the skill-wise passing criteria is the same.

[Chico]

Just for the record, I have seen a rule book. I do "study" off the blooming thing from time to time. I was told that adult moves are given more of a break. This is what I was TOLD. I've been told by all the coaches I've ever had that moves are necessary. (This is where edge control is learned and practiced. Each move builds on the one before it.)Sure, doubles, flying spins, etc. can be done without them in some fashion, but they aren't done well or in control. I think it's like building a house without a foundation. Yes, moves are the worst for falls. Everyone has different goals and challenges, and what is right for one person might not be for someone else. Reading this board, and seeing all the different ideas says this is true. To me, a recreational skater is someone who skates just to fart around. I work too hard at this sport to fit into this category. I'm just me, and a skater.

Chico

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by jazzpants
I can't help but think of 3 words: "OLYMPIC SIZE RINK!!!!" :lol:

:lol: :lol: Heck, my power circle test fall was on an Olympic sized rink! I was really moving fast, then.....the click of death 8O :twisted:

[Debbie S]

Originally posted by jazzpants
In fact, to make life simpler for you ;) , they even have FREE Online Survey websites! (They have EVERYTHING on the Internet!) :mrgreen: Just do a Google on "Free Online Survey" and you'll find an eyeful. 8O

I highly recommend Survey Monkey (I think it's surveymonkey.com). We've used them in b-school for class project-related surveys. I believe for under 100 responses, it's free, but if it's over that you pay $20. I suspect this survey will get more than 100 responses.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
:lol: :lol: Heck, my power circle test fall was on an Olympic sized rink! I was really moving fast, then.....the click of death 8O :twisted: Funny, that's exactly what happened to me the first time my primary coach had me do consecutive forward crossovers. I was going fast enough where he said this bright idea of having me (at that time I was BARELY learning crossovers!!!) do power circles to get used to the speed. Yeap! The click of death got me!!! But he was QUITE amazed at the speed I was going right before I went down! (I thought he was either NUTS or wants to kill me... especially since this was done on a crowded public ice session!!! 8O :evil: 8O

The last click of death was on the ends of the rinks. It did in my knees for 3 weeks!!! I'm lucky it wasn't worse!!! 8O 8O 8O

[skateflo]

I think an online survey would be a great idea. Take it seriously and be sure to put a notice in 'Skating' magazine! Since the USFS doesn't break down their membership stats, it is hard to really tell how many adults are skating and not testing/competing. I think it is important to learn why adults are not testing/competing. You also might see if the PSA might cooperate with a notice also with a short notice to the coaches re: are your adult skaters testing? Perhaps even a survey done by them with a coaching focus would be valuable!

There have been really great posts in this thread, but we are just the tip of the iceberg....the more numbers we can put together with specific information, the more effective we can be to keep adult skating going forward that meets the needs of adults. AN does not reach all of the adult community (note how it shifts with the location of AN) and those who do not compete are left out of the survey (injury, do not compete at all, can't afford to travel to that particular location, etc.) Just surveying at AN would be a very unbalanced survey. I would hope that the USFS would respond to the results if they want the adult community to stay vibrant and growing.

[Michigansk8er]

Each move builds on the one before it

This is the point we are trying to make........the adult moves DO NOT build on each other, like the standard track. They are all over the board. The gold test is comprised of juv, intermediate and novice moves. You jump to higher level moves faster, and totally skip some (the logic USFSA used at the time was that they had selected the "important" ones). This makes things more difficult.........and even though the judging criteria is supposedly lower, it isn't necessarily so. It depends on the judge, and how they decide to call it. To test an adult move, you had better have it to regular track standards before you even consider stepping out on the ice on a test session...and every coach worth their salt knows this. This is no reflection on you whatsoever, so don't take it that way, but it doesn't help adult skaters at all for coaches to pooh-pooh the adult track as substandard.

Sure, doubles, flying spins, etc. can be done without them in some fashion, but they aren't done well or in control.

I have seen a lot of adults and kids (one example is ISI does not have a moves track, but look at their freestyle tests....very difficult at the higher levels) execute these things very well, and with no moves, so to say that across the board is making a generalization IMO. I also happen to think my flying camel is pretty darned good. Kids are competing 2 doubles in preliminary, so I would guess the preliminary moves test is what is required to start learning doubles? Actually, maybe it's pre-pre, since they start working on doubles at that level these days......but can't put them in until preliminary.

To me, a recreational skater is someone who skates just to fart around.

I'm sorry if this offended you. To me, a recreational skater is anyone that is a skater.........but does not test or compete.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do think we testers/competitors have a different take on this issue, however......and some of us totally disagree too.

[slusher]

I'm new to this forum, I know this is the USFSA thread but I have been reading with interest and looking at what is required at each Adult level for freeskate and MITF. I'm in Canada with no "adult" track so I've been working on my preliminary levels, same as the kids. I think it's something that I can do and I started skating with a coach after being a "rec skater" for all those years before and I am in my mid 40's. I've started to be a test skater and don't compete. From what I can see from the USFSA site, Adult bronze is about what Canada's preliminary freeskate and skills are, actually there's more stuff in Canada's test, like a camel spin. The adult bronze moves sort of line up to the preliminary skills test, waltzing 3's = power 3's and 5 step mohawk is the same as waltzing mohawks, almost, we get an extra step but we have to do it to music and hit the beat, like a dance test. I don't think that the USFSA Adult moves are too hard for that Bronze freeskate level. That you have to take them to do a freeskate test is what I don't agree with. I didn't look at any of the higher levels, I only know preliminary right now.

I don't have to do skills, or dance for that matter at all. If I was a jumping fiend, I could enter in pre-preliminaryStarSkate, and jump my brains out.
I find it very retro that MITF tests are required before the freeskate test is done in the USFSA system. We in Canada complain about skills tests just being a money grab, and that's what it looks like for the USFSA. My view from north of the border.

[jenlyon60]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
To test an adult move, you had better have it to regular track standards before you even consider stepping out on the ice on a test session...and every coach worth their salt knows this.

Most coaches worth their salt wouldn't put a kid's standard track MIF test (or dance test, or FS test) out until it's well above requirements for passing standard. If nothing else, to allow for the "nervous factor" or the "different rink" factor. First of all, it's not fair for the student. Second, it wastes everyone's time. Third, it doesn't enhance the reputation of the coach (which potentially affects future income flow).

Watching a test that maybe, on a good day, was passing standard, is not fun for the judges, either. Contrary to what some parents and skaters think, most judges don't enjoy ripping apart a skater's performance.

And... I can't speak for the Adult Gold MIF test (having not worked on it yet), but for the most part, there are MIF elements from a lower level that build for the next level.

For example...

Forward Power 3's (Bronze) build on skills needed for Pre-Bronze Alternating FO 3's.

FO3-BI3 (Silver) directly builts from Forward Power 3's (think about the push and weight shift onto the BI edge from Forward Power 3's... SAME push and weight shift to set up for the BI3 after the FO3.

The Bronze Alternating forward crossovers and back crossovers are basic skating skills...

The alternating back crossovers to back outside edge helps develop control of the skater's "landing position"... and BTW, if you're a dancer, it's almost exactly the same body alignment/position coming out of the ladie's swing outside closed mohawk in the Silver Tango, and also at the end of the Blues pattern (except for the free leg being in front).

Silver Slide chasse Step Sequence directly grows from the Bronze 5-step mohawk sequence, and builds on the skills required for the 5-step.

My understanding on the spirals is that the Pre-pre spirals were stuck at a higher level solely because a lot of Adult skaters are flexibility-challenged. And... if one is a flexible skater who can do good spirals, that element may be able to serve as an off-set on the test for an element that is weaker, at test time.

Having waxed prolific here for awhile... I have heard of rumors that there may be changes in the elements for Adult MIF. When and what, that I haven't heard.

[Michigansk8er]

For me to test adult moves, I'd have to have them consistently well above standard passing criteria, due to the "nervous" factor. I'd probably still muck it up though. I know coaches often put out tests hoping for a good day though. I'd just hate to have a coach of an adult want to put out a test that was barely at adult passing criteria. The aim should be to skate the move at the regular track level regardless of judging criteria. What I'd like to see (in my fantasy world) is moves to be more like dance..............if you really bomb on a move and fail the test, you could just retest that move (kind of like dance where you don't have to pass, or even test, all of the dances at a certain level). I know, I'm dreaming...... It would save a lot of time and money from the skaters side though (ice time, lessons, etc.).

I have heard of rumors that there may be changes in the elements for Adult MIF. When and what, that I haven't heard.

That would be great.....unless they decide the evil novice move isn't difficult enough and toss in a junior or senior one for good measure (or something equally ridiculous at the other levels). Would be just our luck. :roll:

I wonder what other countries are doing for moves? It would be interesting to know other test structures.

[flo]

Chico - "Sure, doubles, flying spins, etc. can be done without them in some fashion, but they aren't done well or in control."

Not that I've seen. There are lots of adults here without the "benefit" of moves with great controlled doubles and flying spins. In fact we have a private ice adult session, and the majority of adults there are landing doubles. Moves are great, but not the only path to great skating.

As far as the survey, I will start to work on it and the on-line availability. I do want to let everyone know that this is not a "USFSA" sponsored/supported survey. Also, I do not know if the moves, or any other topics will be brought up at the May GC meeting or not.
Even if there are changes to adult rules, I still feel it will be valuable to have this information on record. Also, when the survey is repeated with the support of the adult committee, there will be a baseline data set for comparison. Thank you all for your interest, and I will probably be contacting many of you for suggestions and help!

[batikat]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er




I wonder what other countries are doing for moves? It would be interesting to know other test structures.

In the UK they dont' have adult track tests but they do have compulsory moves tests before you can compete at the corresponding level. Although the moves test track had been around for a while the compulsoryness (!)was instituted a couple of years ago to combat the perceived fall in standard of 'skating skills' after the demise of figures.

Initially there was both a minimum and a maximum standard for each competitive level. This provoked a huge outcry particularly from adult skaters many of whom enjoyed progressing through the moves tests to a high level even when they had no hope of ever reaching the equivalent level in Free. The maximum moves level would have meant many skaters were barred from competing for having taken moves tests above their Freeskating standard and was quickly abandoned. The minimum level remains in force.

At the moment we have a dance moves tests track and a Field Moves test track for Freeskaters but these are going to be combined soon and are presently taken as equivalents ( which is another nonsense but hey this is skating!) so I can compete at level 1 Free as I have level 1 dance moves test.

Some people reckon adults here are given a little bit extra leeway from judges as the judges know that adults will continue to work on their moves but other people will tell you they are harder on adults, so take your pick. There is certainly no 'official' lower passing standard for adults.

edited to add
As it happens I take a group figures class (for fun(!))and boy is that hard work. Give me Field moves over figures any day of the week as far as having a hope of passing any tests. However I am persevering with figures class as it has greatly improved my control and posture and benefited my skating in general to a greater degree than practising moves ( and I practice both dance and Free moves from the first 3 levels of tests even though I've only taken level 1 tests)

[CanAmSk8ter]

I'm not 25 yet but it won't be that long and I'd like to fill out a survey too. I've been doing just dance for several years but when I turn 25 I think I'd like to try pairs as an adult and maybe get back into freestyle a bit too. (I had up to double flip, not super consistant, when I was about 14 or 15). But as it stands now, I'd have to start my MITF over at the beginning when I've passed all but ONE lousy move on all the adult tests- and hopefully by the time I'm 25 I'll have passed Novice and have all the moves on the adult tests passed- so that I could take the adult pairs or freestyle tests. Not to mention I'd have to start with Pre-Bronze freestyle when I've passed Pre-Juvenile.

[Chico]

I'm done fighting. I haven't seen skaters do skills well without a good framework. I see inconsistency, injuries and.......poorly done skills. This is my opinion. Since the adult move system isn't working, do regular moves which seem to. Just because I work on moves doesn't make me more serious, or more a skater, than those who don't. Just because others want to compete or test, and I don't doesn't make me any less one. What label you wear has everything to do with who you are inside.

Chico

[Michigansk8er]

I haven't seen skaters do skills well without a good framework. I see inconsistency, injuries and.......poorly done skills.

There are even elite skaters that are inconsistent, injured, or have poorly done skills. They didn't get to this level, however, without passing their senior tests (aka "framework"). Enough said!

[pennybeagle]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
This makes things more difficult.........and even though the judging criteria is supposedly lower, it isn't necessarily so. It depends on the judge, and how they decide to call it. To test an adult move, you had better have it to regular track standards before you even consider stepping out on the ice on a test session...and every coach worth their salt knows this.

From reading other posts on this thread, it seems that judging is still quite inconsistent with regard to Adult MIF testing. Michigansk8ter's post interested me, since I have been testing standard track and adult track simultaneously. Perhaps this is because I am somewhat of a masochist, but I also like the moves on the standard track better and think they help my overall skating more (like the power pulls in pre-Juv and the back outside 3s in Juvenile and Intermediate that never show up in the adult track for some reason...see, told you I was a masochist). On the other hand, I want to compete as an adult, and as such, I also have to take the adult moves.

I took the Adult Silver MIF test and juvenile MIF tests within a week or so of each other. Many of the moves are similar for those tests (such as the 8-step mohawk and the cross rolls), but the testing standards are different. I took the silver moves test first, and received the passing standard on most of the moves (I don't remember the number and I don't have the test in front of me, but I scored the passing average on all of the moves except the spirals, which scored one tenth higher than the passing average). Basically, I though I was sunk, since the passing average of the same moves for the juvenile test was higher, and I didn't really have time to work on the skills. But I tested Juvenile, and lo and behold, I passed at the juvenile standard, several tenths higher. I think I had about 4 hours of ice time between the tests.

Now, with regard to the Adult Gold test... somehow, I can't manage to pass this one. Yes, the novice move kills me every time, but on top of that, they keep marking my double 3s as sub-standard. These are the SAME moves that passed on the juvenile MIF test a year ago! They have NOT deteriorated--if anything, they have gotten better. But they still score lower.

I have heard that there is a reluctance for judges to pass adult skaters at the gold level, since that is the last test, sort of akin to the Senior Moves test. Well, if that's the case, then fine. But the fact that I am now scoring LOWER on my double 3s than I did a year ago on my juvenile test really boggles me. It seems so random--do these numbers really mean anything at all on any "objective" scale, or do they simply indicate whether the judge wants to pass you or not (plus or minus a tenth or two)?

My freestyle, by the way, is nowhere near the Gold level, although I do enjoy working on freestyle. (Maybe I am just destined to dance, though)

[icedancer2]

I think what you're pointing out is the inconsistency of the 6.0 judging system in general, which is why it has to go -- I can't wait for the day when there is a test version of the CoP (or whatever that evolves to!)

[Michigansk8er]

Pennybeagle,

Good luck on those Gold moves. Boy, how frustrating that must be for you. I hope you get some judges next time that will appreciate your awesome double 3's. For some reason I find them more difficult than the brackets and back double 3's. What's your secret?

Wouldn't if be nice if on that dreaded Novice move we could just do it in our good direction? Heck, we don't have to spin and jump in both directions..... :lol:

Speaking of dance, I think dance is another great way to teach good posture, line, edges, and understanding of music. When I started skating as an adult in my mid-20's everyone did dance. You did figures, dance and freestyle......no questions asked. In the past year, the kids where I skate have started to take up dance again. Cool! For most of us though.........just not time to do it all.

We'll be cheering for you next time you test!!!!

[Elsy2]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the moves don't have value. We all know they do. (Although I could argue that dance has done more for my overall skating than moves.....) It's the way in which the moves have been organized and shoved down our throats. We were bamboozled to believe they'd be optional.

If in fact the moves were meant to correlate with similar freestyle tests, than adult silver moves should be no higher than pre-juvenile, and adult gold moves no higher than juvenile. (The adult silver fs test does not have any elements higher than the standard pre-juv. fs test, and the adult gold fs test has no elements higher than the standard juvenile fs test.)

Some may get the impression here that the adult moves are different than the standard track, so I want to clarify that they are the same moves, in a different order, with "supposedly" a slightly lower passing average.

That chart that has been developed for judging adult moves should be printed in the rulebook!

[pennybeagle]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
Pennybeagle,

Good luck on those Gold moves. Boy, how frustrating that must be for you. I hope you get some judges next time that will appreciate your awesome double 3's. For some reason I find them more difficult than the brackets and back double 3's. What's your secret?


I found that my double-3s (well, in MY opinion and my coach's opinion, but not the three judges who failed me's opinion) got a lot better when I started working on my brackets. It's basically the same principle of counter-rotation of the upper body against the lower body, bending the knees, and keeping the weight over the skating side. Heh... easier said than done ;)

Keeping the weight securely in line over the skating side is really key, though. I used to double-lean big time to create the illusion of being balanced, but I was wobbling out of the three turn. Working on dance has really helped me with getting this idea of staying in line with myself, and bending my knees without turning out (which I tend to do if I'm not thinking about it). I practiced a lot of knee-bending and counter-rotation exercises off ice. I also find that I have to start the first turn way earlier than I think I'd like to (I would prefer to wait until the top of the lobe, like the Silver three turns).

I also think that it is harder to control the double 3 turns going the forward direction than backward. For many other adult skaters at my rink, the back double 3s are a bit scary because of the speed factor, but I find them quite secure. I've always had more of a problem feeling secure on a forward edge than a backward edge (hence, the reason axels scare me to death and I won't work on them unless forced to)

Now the novice move, on the other hand... :evil:
What kills me about this move is that it bears almost no resemblance (I find) to any of the other 3-turns in any of the MIF tests leading up to it. I have heard people say that it's similar to the Intermediate back 3-turn pattern on the ends, but I see (and feel) no connection. My evil freestyle coach put two of these novice 3-turns (going in my opposite direction) in a serpentine footwork pattern in my freestyle program. I think it's his way of forcing me to work on them (which I suppose works), but now I have fears of falling on my footwork in my program and crashing into the boards...

[PattyP]

Originally posted by pennybeagle

My evil freestyle coach put two of these novice 3-turns (going in my opposite direction) in a serpentine footwork pattern in my freestyle program. I think it's his way of forcing me to work on them (which I suppose works), but now I have fears of falling on my footwork in my program and crashing into the boards... [/B]

My evil coach did the same thing to me. My first couple of competitions, I was terrified when I got to this section of the program, but it forced me to do them over and over and over. I finally got comfortable (okay, comfortable is a streatch, but they did get better) with them and a year later I passed my gold moves. So it does work, just be patient, it takes a while.

PattyP

[Michigansk8er]

Pennybeagle and PattyP,

I hope my coach is never evil enough to put those turns in my footwork. He says footwork should be on autopilot. I can only imagine how long it would take me to get those evil things on auto. I hope the judges appreciate both of your footwork sequences!! I know I'm in awe.

I found that my double-3s got a lot better when I started working on my brackets.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if I can translate my brackets into better double 3's since my brackets are way better than my 3's (kind of working it the other direction)? I'm with you on the backward double 3's. My feet would rather do backward things. Gee, maybe that's why I like backspins better too. Anyhow, I'll try to remember your hints when I get back on the ice.

[Michigansk8er]

Some may get the impression here that the adult moves are different than the standard track, so I want to clarify that they are the same moves, in a different order

Here's a chart for those interested:

http://www.gerfsc.com/rules.htm#MoveTest

The adult freestyle tests are essentially:

Pre-Bronze = Pre-Preliminary
Bronze = Preliminary
Silver = Pre-Juvenile
Gold = Juvenile

In addition, here's some USFSA information that answers many questions, including the reason for moves:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/MIFMemoAddendum.pdf

Enjoy!

[Sk8r4Life]

I always thought that Silver was more equivalent, as far as skill level goes, to Juvenile, because it has 2 Juv moves, and 2 pre-Juv moves and one Intermediate move, which sort of averages one of the pre-Juv moves. I actually don't understand why the pre-Juv 3 turns are separate moves--to me they are all the same, but that's not really the point. Well, one thing is for sure--the adult moves are random!!

I just started working on the Novice inside 3-turns which are also on the Gold test. It's funny because, even though I am a CCW skater, the clockwise direction is so much smoother and easier for me! That first back 3-turn is a little bit scarier, but the 3-turns themselves are so much better. Going CCW I find I have more toe-scratching. My coach said it was the same way for her. Maybe because you work harder and pay more attention to the side that you are less familiar with. Unlike pennybeagle, I find that these 3-turns are very similar to previous 3-turns, especially the back inside double 3's (admittedly these are on the same adult test, but in standard track they are on a previous test), as well as the 3-turns in the field from pre-Juv. I remember when I was working on these my coach used to always give me a hard time for leaving my free leg behind me when turning the back inside 3. Now I know why!

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by pennybeagle
Now the novice move, on the other hand... :evil:
What kills me about this move is that it bears almost no resemblance (I find) to any of the other 3-turns in any of the MIF tests leading up to it. I have heard people say that it's similar to the Intermediate back 3-turn pattern on the ends, but I see (and feel) no connection. My evil freestyle coach put two of these novice 3-turns (going in my opposite direction) in a serpentine footwork pattern in my freestyle program. I think it's his way of forcing me to work on them (which I suppose works), but now I have fears of falling on my footwork in my program and crashing into the boards...

I have passed the Intermediate move, and the 3-turn pattern on that move is definitely a prep for the Novice move. I feel much more secure already on the Novice move than I did when I took the Gold test, and I haven't even been practicing them a whole lot.

That's why I think that the USFSA needs to rework the adult MIF requirements - it's crazy to expect us to do the novice back-3's without the building block of the Intermediate back-3's.

[Michigansk8er]

it's crazy to expect us to do the novice back-3's without the building block of the Intermediate back-3's.

You'll have to show me these when I get back on the ice. I need all of the help I can get on that novice end pattern from you know where!!!!!

[emyh]

I highly recommend Survey Monkey (I think it's surveymonkey.com). We've used them in b-school for class project-related surveys. I believe for under 100 responses, it's free, but if it's over that you pay $20. I suspect this survey will get more than 100 responses.

I have some experience web-designing and with programming languages. If you want I can write/implement a survey script and upload it onto my personal site so you wouldn't have to pay a dime.

Although I'm not 25, I didn't start skating until I was about 14. It is highly unlikely I will ever be able to compete using the standard track becasue of age restrictions, and the issue of grandfathering bothers me greatly.

[LoopLoop]

I'm working on gold MITF and went to a critique session yesterday. First there was an off-ice session during which the judges explained what they're looking for one each move, and then we got on the ice and the judges looked at a few moves from each skater.

Not one judge made a comment about adult standards vs. regular track... I intentionally didn't bring it up because I wanted to see if they did. They seemed to be looking at my gold moves with the same perspective that they would judge standard-track intermediate and novice.

[jenlyon60]

My critique was roughly the same (re standard vs. adult). My coach commented to me afterwards on that. But it gives me something to work towards... working towards doing the MIF at a pace and tempo/timing close to what the standard track kids would do them at.

[tazsk8s]

Not one judge made a comment about adult standards vs. regular track... I intentionally didn't bring it up because I wanted to see if they did. They seemed to be looking at my gold moves with the same perspective that they would judge standard-track intermediate and novice.

Which makes me wonder, what's the point of having an "adult standard", if they're not going to pay attention to it?