Toe-loop... arrgh!

[tidesong]

Hello, I've just started trying my double toe-loop and can barely get 1 1/2 rounds out of it... its so frustrating because I can't get the timing at all... and where does the lift come from? My right leg is supposed to give most of the lift and I feel that the tapping toe is blocking my way so I just get horribly confused...

[TashaKat]

[quote:b1432050d0="tidesong"]Hello, I've just started trying my double toe-loop and can barely get 1 1/2 rounds out of it... its so frustrating because I can't get the timing at all... and where does the lift come from? My right leg is supposed to give most of the lift and I feel that the tapping toe is blocking my way so I just get horribly confused...[/quote:b1432050d0]

Hi :) First of all I'm NOT an expert on this, can only get 1.75 rotation at the most and haven't done it in a while because I injured my knee. The way I have been shown may be different to others HOWEVER ..... the bit that you said about the picking toe blocking is EXACTLY what my coach tries to get me out of doing!

First of all they reworked my singles. They had me doing BO pivots with the left toe (I jump CCW) in before jumping as the BLOCK comes when you don't let the right leg come up to and past the left. If you think about it ..... if you just pull the right leg into and across the left you're 'stuck' and will need to use your shoulders to try and make the turn which is when you'll throw yourself off and won't get full rotation. You also need to commit the cardinal sin of letting your shoulders SLIGHTLY pre-rotate .... again, if your left arm is stuck in front you will have no-where to turn, a SMALL amount of rotation before you jump gives you the 'opening' bring your right side through.

More spring comes from a soft, working, well bent knee (think like a spring, you can have a bent knee but still be rigid). Also thinking of kneeing someone in the groin (sorry!) will give you the 'correct' action of the right leg (if you send it through straight your body has further to go to catch up!).

Ultimately all jumps are about timing, timing comes with practise!

Don't despair :) It will happen ......... one day :D

Hope that explanation makes sense ........ it's difficult to explain in words, MUCH easier to show ........ perhaps I could e-mail my coach over to you ;) ....... I've been doing a LOT of that recently!

L x

[MissIndigo]

[quote:b5fb67532f="TashaKat"]
...as the BLOCK comes when you don't let the right leg come up to and past the left. If you think about it ..... if you just pull the right leg into and across the left you're 'stuck' and will need to use your shoulders to try and make the turn which is when you'll throw yourself off and won't get full rotation. You also need to commit the cardinal sin of letting your shoulders SLIGHTLY pre-rotate .... again, if your left arm is stuck in front you will have no-where to turn, a SMALL amount of rotation before you jump gives you the 'opening' bring your right side through.
[/quote:b5fb67532f]

There's always a discussion about toe loops going on over on RSSIR and they always end up nasty so I'm glad one is finally here where people know how to discuss properly! :D Anyhow, I was wondering...I agree with pulling your right leg past the left in order to make the rotation of the jump, but do you feel like you're picking "straight back" (i.e., along the line of travel, which is a small arc on the BO edge), or actually crossing the picking foot over? I have been taught on the single, which I finally have consistent now, to pick straight back and when I examine my tracing, I find that the arc of the BO edge has *just* passed the toe pick mark on the ice. This is the consequence of the pull-in. Also, I was wondering about the left arm...I found that if I did leave it in front of me, and pulled it directly in while bringing the right arm up and through, I can complete the jump and have only about a 45 degree prerotation. This may work for singles, for doubles I suppose your body would need to be somewhat more open? In any case, make sure that you are not picking too far to the left, as this will create too strong of a CW torque you will have to fight and the torque wins, stopping you dead. However, you should feel a very small CW torque as the check just before you jump. I think of that split moment as the time when I check the alignment of my hips and shoulders and leg.

Good luck with your double toes! I want one someday! :mrgreen:

[size=9:b5fb67532f]Edited for spelling.[/size:b5fb67532f]

[tidesong]

[quote:8fcd76af92="TashaKat"]They had me doing BO pivots with the left toe (I jump CCW)

L x[/quote:8fcd76af92]

Erm when you do a pivot isn't the picking leg bent? But it is supposed to be straight when you pick right? Thats one more thing I have problem understanding... :)


I am taught to pick nearly straight back slightly crossed over... I used to cross over alot, then I tried thinking of the ballet jump... So I can do one round no problem but I don't feel like I am going UP at all...
Ok, another question, does the jumping leg jump all the way throught the toe-pick? I can feel my jumping leg sliding off the edge sometimes because I am so anxious about picking straight.
Its like the jumping leg is moving backwards all the while and then after the pick the jumping leg changes directions... is that it? Sounds like the jumping leg has to go up(while going backwards), make a three turn in the air, and then kick forwards...
Is there an error in that which makes me figuring how to make my leg go confusing?
Thanks for the help so far...

[TashaKat]

[quote:7b6166fe74="tidesong"] [quote:7b6166fe74="TashaKat"]They had me doing BO pivots with the left toe (I jump CCW)

L x[/quote:7b6166fe74]

Erm when you do a pivot isn't the picking leg bent? But it is supposed to be straight when you pick right? Thats one more thing I have problem understanding... :) [/quote:7b6166fe74]

That was just an exercise to help me to get the feeling of bringing the non-picking foot in/through properly so that I didn't block myself, obviously when this is translated to the jump proper you will pick with the leg straight.

I was taught NOT to cross my picking foot over but also not to pick too far to the side.

[Dustin]

Remember that your arms are really important. They need to go along with your legs. Also, remember not to do a toe axel - turn completely forward on the toe before you jump. Something else that may help is remember to not pick too far out to the side, it is supposed to be behind, or almost behind the leg right leg.

[MissIndigo]

[quote:99f8c9f5da="tidesong"]
I am taught to pick nearly straight back slightly crossed over... I used to cross over alot, then I tried thinking of the ballet jump... So I can do one round no problem but I don't feel like I am going UP at all... [/quote:99f8c9f5da]

How is your knee bend going into the jump? When I was learning the jump, I had a habit of not bending my knee enough and pulling the skating foot towards my picking foot--consequence of fear I just had to get over with time. I could complete a revolution, but felt like I was going around and not up. I was able to establish a rhythm going into the jump by saying to myself, "turn, check, plant, spring, scoop!" Helped tremendously, especially saying "spring" and "scoop" to myself--made the mind-body connection needed for me to lift my skating leg off the ice and bring my arms in all at the same time, with the result being a solid jump with minimal prerotation (i.e., hips, shoulders, picking leg all aligned properly, and no turning on the toe pick resulting in a toe-waltz jump--ugh!)

[quote:99f8c9f5da="tidesong"]
Ok, another question, does the jumping leg jump all the way throught the toe-pick? I can feel my jumping leg sliding off the edge sometimes because I am so anxious about picking straight.
Its like the jumping leg is moving backwards all the while and then after the pick the jumping leg changes directions... is that it? Sounds like the jumping leg has to go up(while going backwards), make a three turn in the air, and then kick forwards...
Is there an error in that which makes me figuring how to make my leg go confusing?
Thanks for the help so far...[/quote:99f8c9f5da]

The jumping leg does change direction, and it is a natural consequence of the rotational motion of the jump. Keep in mind you will not be completely in the air until you have rotated about half a revolution. By now, the jumping leg is traveling forward, and of course will be gliding backwards again when you land. As for feeling like you're sliding off the edge, again, a nice knee bend should help you feel more in control of the edge, and pulling your jumping leg towards your picking foot is correct. Double-check your picking also and make sure you're not rotating on the pick since that can lead to a slippy feeling too. Doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong; I would bet your leg feels confused because there's something in the timing of your jump that needs to be adjusted a bit.