Adult Sectionals Non - Qualifying- too expensive!

[Terri C]

About a month ago, I looked into the issue of competing at Adult Eastern Sectionals in March. When the application came out, I was shocked and astonished to read that the entry fee for the first event for non- qualifying was $90.00 for the first event and $60.00 for the next!
After doing what I thought would be a price comparison to the other Adult Sectionals that would be held- I found that ALL of the Adult Sectionals have the same entry fees!

Considering that the standard track Regionals only charge $70-75 for the first event and $30(?) for the second for the non- qualifying kiddos, I feel that we are being overcharged. Also, add another $10.00 to that and for those that are Bronze and Silver- you can attend AN instead!
Some could say that the few adult skaters in proportion to the kids could be a reason, but if the price could be lowered, more adults may be interested. This is a Sectional competition, meaning some in that respective Section may have to fly, rent a car, book hotel rooms to be there!

[blurrysarah]

Competition entry fees always boggle my mind, I cannot for the life of me see how they justify the cost. An upcoming competition here in Oz asks for $200AU for a singles skater to enter. And $145 for every synchro team member (and most teams have 15-20 skaters). It's a wonder why they don't promote synchro more, seeing as they make such a nice little profit off of us.

[miss cleo]

I agree that the cost of Adult Sectionals has become excessive compared to years past. I think folks will save their pennies for Adult Nationals especially since you don't have to qualify to go. The entry fees alone for the events I would like to skate come to more than I spent last weekend at the Intermountain Adult Open.

It is discouraging to see adults raked over the coals like this - especially for non-qualifying events, many of which are 1:30.

[jenlyon60]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but hosting a competition such as Adult Sectionals (or any non-qualifying comp) is dang expensive. Most competitions barely break even by the time all the costs are factored in...

Consider:

Ice time: depending on the site, ice time can run upwards of $250/hour (some rinks in my area charge more than that). If the competition is using 2 sheets of ice for 8 hours per day/2 days, then ice costs alone would be $4000.

Cost to bring in the judges: Judges and the chief referee get their expenses paid (airfare or mileage at a pre-determined USFSA per mile rate). They also get their lodging paid for, and possibly their meals (depending on how many meals are provided for them at the rink). Depending on the types of events and levels, the competition staff may have to bring in judges of the right level from outside their home area.

Don't know if accountants get reimbursed or not...as competition officials, I would assume they do. FIgure a minimum of 5 judges per event and a few extra to give judges a break so it's not the same panel going straight for the whole competition... many single-sheet competitions have 10-12 judges to ensure adequate coverage.

Those little pieces of metal they award us cost money. As do the programs.

Some rinks charge extra for the party rooms and what-not. Figure for 8 hours of competition per day, the judges' hospitality is occupied a minimum of 10-12 hours.

Unfortunately for us skaters... hockey is more than willing to buy ALL the ice time we groan about, at the prices we groan about.

BTW, the Garden State Pro-Am I was going to skate at, until doc said no, cost $70 for a test-level event, and $40 for each single dance event for entry fees.

[jazzpants]

Don't forget the goodie bags too! ;)

[w.w.west]

Well said jenlyon60! Just to add:

Judges (actually all officials) get a gift of some type too and that adds to expense.

Yes, accountants get reimbursed too. They are an official.

Don't forget the music technicians. They are officials too.

So basically, for an adult sectional, you're looking at around 20 officials. Also, judges have to be Novice comp. and higher...which means that you must go further outside the area than you normally would for a regular non-qual. This also adds to expense. Like jenlyon60 said, you have to make sure you have enough judges that are qualified in each discipline. If you're lucky, you can get a judge that is qualified in all dance and freestyle.

And ice time isn't getting any cheaper...it goes up just about every year. Adjustments have to be made.

As far as standard track regionals, there are many more skaters at that level which is probably why it is a bit cheaper. Adult sectionals are lucky if they get 150 people total. Standard track regionals probably get at least double that depending on what region. I know it doesn't seem fair, but if we want to continue having adult skating opportunities, then clubs have to be able to make money on them.

Happy Skating!

[jenlyon60]

I didn't count the goodie bags since the contents are often "freebies" for advertisement purposes or whatever. Well maybe not the tissue packs and hot-hands packs.... I guess WFSC goes minimalist. The only "goodie" I remember for competitors at last year's event was a water bottle with the Ashburn Ice House logo on it.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by jenlyon60
I didn't count the goodie bags since the contents are often "freebies" for advertisement purposes or whatever. Well maybe not the tissue packs and hot-hands packs.... I guess WFSC goes minimalist. The only "goodie" I remember for competitors at last year's event was a water bottle with the Ashburn Ice House logo on it. I got in my goodie bag at my last competition:
Two small Halloween candy packs (one of them a Milky Way)
small stuffed panda bear (Kids get either a small pig or a frog depending on the gender of the kid. I want the frog actually...)
tissue packs
Commearative pin for Skate SF event
small travel sized hand lotion (I suspect it's the type that hotels give out to hotel guest. It does come in quite handy at work!) :D ;)And I think that's it! Two years ago when I competed, we also got a free printed program and a skating club pin (which I think it's KEWL!!!) 8-)

Our last Pacific Coast Sectionals was easily OVER 150 people!!! Plus, since it was a combined Sectionals and "West Coast Adults" competition, we had people from other countries show up on the ice too! Of course, there's a lot of adult skaters in the SF Bay Area alone...never mind LA...

Speaking of which, I want to go to LA this year! But I can't afford it! WAAAAH!!! :cry: (Not unless hubby pulls off a miracle and finds a decent paying job by January. Gotta pay an INSANE amount for property taxes.) :roll:

[Mrs Redboots]

Here, we don't get goodie bags, nor do our programmes come free. I have no objection to paying a pound or so for a programme, as it's worth it.

One other thing is that judges and officials here expect to be fed; usually club members provide food, but they may need to be reimbursed for that. (One year, at one competition, they provided far too much food and a call went out before the last class for the skaters to please go and eat it, as it would be wasted otherwise! Needless to say, we did!).

[skaternum]

I'll add to what jenlyon60 said. Here's the rough breakdown of my club's local competition. We average just over 200 skaters.

Ice time:
Friday 3 hours x $215 = $645
Saturday 12 hours x $215 = $2580
Sunday 7 hours x $215 = $1505
Total: $4730

Transportation:
12 out of town officials (1 referee + 1 accountant + 10 judges) x $250 average airfare = $3000

10 "local" judges reimbursed at USFSA mileage rate x $15 average = $150

Total: $3150

Hotels:
12 out of town officials x $55 per night per room x 2 nights = $1320

Food for judges:
Friday night dinner at restaurant for any judges who want to attend (usually just the out-of-towners + a few extra) and the club members who take them. 12 x $15 per meal = $180

Saturday night official Judges Dinner (usually hosted at someone's house, so groceries are all you pay for) for officials, competition chair, and board members. $300

Breakfast, lunch, and snacks for the judges during the competition: $200
Total: $680

Misc.:
We always have to rent a few tables (don't have enough for registration, shirt sales, etc.). We usually have to replace some piece of equipment every year (CD player, photocopier, wireless headset, signs, podium) -- it varies. And we blow through a ton of paper for making photocopies of results, plus a toner cartridge. Don't forget that at some point we had to *buy* all that equipment to start with, so if you actualized it out over a 10 year period, you'd need to factor that in.
Estimate for misc: $200.

So the grand total is: $10,080
If you divide by 200 skaters, it comes to $54. The airfare situation or hotel situation can really drive it up more. And if you're using a rink with double sheets of ice, you may have more ice charges. The more skaters you have, the more judges you'll need. I don't begrudge any club the entry fee for a competition. Besides, by the time I've paid for my own transportation costs & hotel & all the practice time & costume costs, what's another 15 bucks for an entry fee??

[PattyP]

[i]

Speaking of which, I want to go to LA this year! But I can't afford it! WAAAAH!!! :cry: (Not unless hubby pulls off a miracle and finds a decent paying job by January. Gotta pay an INSANE amount for property taxes.) :roll: [/B]

Hey Joanna, I have a spare bedroom if you would like to come and stay with me to save some $$. As long as you don't mind a slightly messy house and a big furry dog! I live about 30 miles from the rink, but on the weekend the drive only takes about 30 minutes.

I was a little peeved about the increase in comp. fees this year too., but at least I don't have to travel this time.

PattyP

[MidwestSkater]

Our club has run an Adult Sectional and we did make a small profit. HOWEVER, you need to be aware of the following:

a) the entry fees are set by the USFSA (by the way a Standard Regional entry fee is $125 for the singles event and pairs/dance events are $125 or $100, depending on the level)
b) officials are assigned by the USFSA Competitions Committee (therefore, the costs go up because they are typically out of town officials)
c) ice costs vary by location - our average is $250/hour, but (I've been told) in Colorado it's around $150/hour
d) there is a small grant (from the USFSA) for clubs that host the Adult Sectional competitions, but it's nowhere close to the amount given for a regional. Ours didn't even cover the cost of the ice!

The reason we made a profit was because we received A LOT of great donations - program printing, copying and copiers)

Also, as far as the entry fees go - our average for competitions here is around $75 for the first event (which may not include more than 1-2 competitors in an event). Given this, $90 for an event where you KNOW you will have competition doesn't seem to bad to me!

Maybe this will help a little!

[flo]

I think we all can see where the money goes, it's not that the cost is not justified. But justified or not it's still too expensive for many working adults (with no support from parents - USFSA - home clubs) to regularly participate in several events a year.
With the increase of fees, the restrictive new rules and additional tests and associated costs, the USFSA Adult program is providing it's own demise.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by flo
With the increase of fees, the restrictive new rules and additional tests and associated costs, the USFSA Adult program is providing it's own demise.

Well said, flo! The number of adults entering into the test stream has dropped off where I am. The main folks testing are a handful of old-timers who are trying to get to silver or gold, or a few roller skating converts. I just seem to see fewer adults making the transition from learn-to-skate programs into figure skating. I can't say I'm thrilled with where adult skating is headed.

[lskater]

Originally posted by flo
I think we all can see where the money goes, it's not that the cost is not justified. But justified or not it's still too expensive for many working adults (with no support from parents - USFSA - home clubs) to regularly participate in several events a year.
With the increase of fees, the restrictive new rules and additional tests and associated costs, the USFSA Adult program is providing it's own demise.

Yes! I tried to pass my silver freestyle before the moves came into effect and didn't pass. I have absolutely no interest in doing the moves (it's just not as fun) and I would have to double my skating practice to make the same progress as I was before moves...just not worth it anymore. I'm pretty much done with the adult track....to many restrictions! And too much $$.

I think we're seeing the results of this at nationals as well. Nationals is much smaller than when I first competed (1999)....

[manleywoman]

Some kids who take from my coach compete very regularly, about every six weeks on average. One day they asked me when my next competition is, and I said I do one in January as a warm up, Adult Sectionals and Adult Nationals. That's it. Three per year. They couldn't believe how few I did, but when I explained to them that I needed time off from work, $$$ for entry fees, airfare, hotel, food, plus training time to get in shape to compete, etc, I think they maybe had a clue about how expensive the sport is.

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by PattyP
Hey Joanna, I have a spare bedroom if you would like to come and stay with me to save some $$. As long as you don't mind a slightly messy house and a big furry dog! I live about 30 miles from the rink, but on the weekend the drive only takes about 30 minutes.

I was a little peeved about the increase in comp. fees this year too., but at least I don't have to travel this time.

PattyP Thanks for the offer. I wants to take it the offer -- but my pocketbook is telling me I can't afford it. My job is enforcing a mandatory Christmas vacation this year and I don't have enough PTO time at the job to cover it all the days, so I'll lose some money on the paycheck. As it is w/o the property taxes, I'm having a hard time making ends meet. I'm considering of doing a few things including extra jobs during the mandatory time off and taking a break off for a month so I could make up the difference.

Of course, hubby will have to pull something in January as well to make up the difference as well...

[dcden]

I know the Sectional and National announcements/entry forms have been out for quite some time now, but due to my procrastination, today was the first day I actually looked at how much the entry fee was: $120! It was $80 back in 2000, $100 in 2001-2003, and now another increase. I hate to add to the negative comments already posted here, but I'm afraid that they are merited given the rising cost of competing as an adult. I guess in the next two days before the AN deadline I'll have to decide whether I want to compete in the open freestyle event or just take a chance on Championship only.

[miss cleo]

IF you qualify for a final in Lake Placid, you skate free. If you skate in the open events, you have to pay more. I get the feeling that the reason the open fees increased is to off set the cost of ice for the championship events.

In the past at AN, those who qualified for the finals paid their own entry fee just as those who skated open events did. There was some "discussion" that the kiddies who made it to Nationals didn't have to pay an entry fee so why should adults who qualify? They assumed that the USFSA "paid" for the kiddies and so should they for adults. But US Nationals has big money in sponsorships to cover ice costs (along with other things)and Adult Nationals has none and the host club is not going to eat the ice costs to pay for the championship event ice.

Just one opinion

[Careygram]

So here's my beef with USFSA. I agree that they're neglecting adult programs and that they could get more adults if they did a few things. My pairs partner and I wanted to compete at nationals but the test requirements pre-cluded us. They are "both skaters have to have adult silver freestyle OR juvenile pairs". Now, WHY do they have adult pair tests (bronze, silver, gold) if they don't even qualify you for nationals and WHY the heck would adults do standard track testing since they're are adult tests. BUT, lucky us, testing bronze pairs (thursday) will get us to sectionals-whoopee. We want to go to nationals but were told--too bad, you have to wait and wish for changes that may or may not happen. My partner has never tested prior to December and we just didn't have time. Now, what if one of us just didn't have the ability to pass silver moves? No nationals, ever??? They told me that there weren't enough adult pairs competing to align with the adult pair tests. Duh, make them reasonable and MAYBE you'll have more adult pairs competing.

AND, no offense to those excited about and attending sectionals-- I just had my heart set on nationals in pairs because I get the runs when I try to compete singles (silver free). Nerves you know. I guess I'll just have to go watch.

My nickel, thanks for reading.

[Mrs Redboots]

As far as I'm aware, anybody who goes to Nationals in this country has to pay a fee, just as they do for any other competition. I could be wrong, but I don't believe so.

[Michigansk8er]

Originally posted by flo
I think we all can see where the money goes, it's not that the cost is not justified. But justified or not it's still too expensive for many working adults (with no support from parents - USFSA - home clubs) to regularly participate in several events a year.
With the increase of fees, the restrictive new rules and additional tests and associated costs, the USFSA Adult program is providing it's own demise.

I totally agree, but I don't think costs are much of a concern to USFSA. By and large, this sport still seems to have a "rich" mindset. I even heard a judge here tell a parent complaining of costs, that skating is for those that can afford it, and if they couldn't, to find a new sport. Maybe it's assumed that adults are all in an income bracket where we can afford it, or we aren't worth worrying about. I sure hope not. I know there is no way I could afford it if I still had kids at home. It's diffult enough as it is justifying the expense and vacation time away from my husband (good thing he's very supportive).

I do know I could more easily afford competition fees/travel if coaching costs weren't so high. I have more of a peeve with kids with no coaching experience (or very little) charging ridiculous hourly rates because they passed some skating tests (like $40 hr for college kids). Heck, all coaches are overpriced when you consider what most of us make per hour with our education and experience.

The new rules and tests are another issue that I could go on and on about, but we've all been there before. Still, I wish I could skate this year, and in the boat I'm in, I'd be happy to write the check rather than be in it.

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Careygram
So here's my beef with USFSA. I agree that they're neglecting adult programs and that they could get more adults if they did a few things. My pairs partner and I wanted to compete at nationals but the test requirements pre-cluded us. They are "both skaters have to have adult silver freestyle OR juvenile pairs". Now, WHY do they have adult pair tests (bronze, silver, gold) if they don't even qualify you for nationals and WHY the heck would adults do standard track testing since they're are adult tests.

ITA with saying why have tests if they don't qualify you. I turned 25 last August, and wanted to compete Silver at AN this year. I passed Pre Bronze and Brozne MITF and Free in December and tested Silver moves last week....and failed. :( Now, I'd be completely happy doing Bronze at AN. BUT....I passed Pre Juv freestyle years ago, just because I could, not to compete it. Passing Pre-Juv FS makes me ineligible to do Bronze. And since I can't skate Silver, no AN for me! It's completely unfair, and I am bumming. I passed Bronze fair and square and I can't skate it?? I didn't know years ago passing pre-juv would cause this problem. I'll continue to test standard track Moves, because they'll help with synchro and I want to, but not FS!
I know that was a digression from the topic, end of rant. :) I do agree the non-qual fees are really high, but I also understand the cost of running such a competition is high, too. My beef with Sectionals last year was it was in conjunction with a club competition and the Adults seemed to be, well, not an afterthought, but we got the early morning skate times ect, ect., and it just didn't seem to have the feel of a real Sectional competition with all the kids running around.
Does anyone know if there were any bids besides SC of CNY's to do Easterns? Is there any particular club you'd like to have it at?

[Michigansk8er]

Stormy,

I think it is totally ridiculous that USFSA does not grandfather in those that have tested USFSA standard track equivilents. One more way to discourage adults.

Good for you for trying and sorry it didn't work out for you.

[flo]

Careygram,
The entry rules for pairs have always been far behind the adult program and very confusing. In '99 I had a juvenile pairs test and a bronze free and because of my partner (with a gold fs test)ended up competing in the masters pairs event. We were a good pair and won the silver medal (I also had a bronze medal from adult pairs at Nationals). Some on the planning committee were horrified that a bronze level skater was skating at the masters level, and raised the fs level to silver. I suggested to the pairs committee that the pairs entries be based on pairs tests, and not free tests - no such luck or logic. Now with a juvenile pairs test, a silver pairs test, and a silver fs test, I would compete in adult pairs with a similar partner, or at masters with a higher partner. It's very irritating that the test requirements and competition requirements are not coordinated. I'm not planning on taking any more tests until the pairs rules and requirements are settled.
And they wonder why the numbers are decreasing....

[skaternum]

Flo, I agree. The adult pairs competition requirements are crazy. My partner and I would be forced into Masters because of his singles test level 20 years ago. We, unlike you guys, are not a good pair, and it would be ridiculous for us to be competing at a Masters level.

I understand the desire to encourage "safe" pairs skating for adults, but I don't buy the whole concept of using your singles freeskating level to determine your competition level. Singles and pairs are really two different disciplines that have some overlap. The techniques for lifts, throws, death spirals, etc. are very different from singles. If they want to make some kind of correlation, they should err on the side of using a lower singles test level.

[We may not be a good pair, but we're a fun pair!]

[sk8er1964]

I was required to skate at Gold freestyle because of my test level as a kid. I agree with that.

Even if I had a desire to, I would never, never, never skate pairs under the currect rules. I would be required to be in masters, from what I understand, and that is downright scary for someone who has never done anything but singles.

Singles and pairs are different, and ITA that they should go with pairs tests as an indicator, not singles tests. Just my 2 cents :) .

[flo]

The masters pairs field has been interesting. Although I don't think we should be competing with skaters who had skated as kids, we were in the correct group as far as skills that year. The team who won the gold was great and had a split double twist. We were the only ones with a combination overhead - a platter star, and skated our program well, and were really happy with our placement. I've also skated in masters where the majority of the field were high level returning skaters - but then again, we were not at our best! I'd like to skate pairs again - and compete with other adults at whatever level! So I'm staying at silver and juvenile pairs until the dust settles. Let me know if there are any men out there interested!
Good luck. And a gold medal to the "fun" pair!