Skating is Skating, or is it?

[SDFanatic]

Ok, I'm just a bit annoyed, perplexed, frustrated, and sour, I don't know if anyone has come across this in their experiences of skating and such, but I've gone back and forth on this enough recently that I need to vent it to others for a couple more pennies.

In talking to the USFSA, one can wear boot covers if they so wish, or have any kind of boot color they want. But everyone around here tells me that the judges for this area do not like boot covers or over the boot tights and will deduct points. I've also been told there are some judges who think adults should not be ice skating and routinely fail them or start them with much lower marks. I've also heard that there is a judge who passes "cute" participants and fails "un-cute" ones, and even another one who put the comment "Nice Dress" on the results paper. It's so bad that people in my club and some coaches will not let their skaters go to a test or competition if certain judges are on the panel. And here I thought skating was about skating, boy was I wrong!

Right now I am extremely annoyed in that I will not be able to express myself as me in what I see is truly an individualistic sport.

So most likely, even if I skate a flawless program, I most likely will place dead last if I wear boot covers, or if I skate in a non-traditional boot color, or heaven forbid, non-traditional attire. And supposedly this even applies to practice ice!

I think something Henry Ford said when he made the Model A fits this to a "T" "You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black"

Steven

[Elsy2]

We've always gone traditional when testing or competing....meaning gone with the flow so to speak. My rationale is to give us every advantage to be successful. That would include dress that would not distract from the performance and would hopefully enhance it.

Now at our rink I have never heard a judge who based a mark on appearance during a test. Our skaters sometimes wear their warm up jackets or gloves to test because it's so darn cold. No problem. But nobody has ever really gone non-traditional either....so I don't know what the reaction would be.

Perhaps the place to express yourself would be in interpretive or showcase events. No limits there! If you have an opportunity to ever watch adult nationals, go!

I believe we have a female poster here who tests and competes in black skates...maybe she'll post a response here for you. She's not in the midwest though. I suppose Ohio tends to be a bit conservative.

Anyways....I'm sorry your feeling so frustrated.

[TashaKat]

Welcome to the world of skating!

I spoke to a judge about this. Her response was "there is nothing to say that you can't wear what you like but we DO like tan tights and white boots" ..... I have purple boots but wear (wore) OTB tights with them which doesn't seem to offend their sensibilities.

On the weirdness of skating ...... I was once in a competition where a fellow skater was wearing a white lycra dress (white + adult IMO is a dodgy area unless you're tiny) and the referee told them a) to deduct because it was too revealing (actually the costume itself covered relevant bits it was just a bit, erm, see through) and b) that if she was to make it onto the podium then the referee would personally fire the judges!

Another guy who tested at my rink failed his test on the quality of his edges (it said that in the final comments bit) .... yet the score sheet said "good edges" .... erm!

x

[NickiT]

The OTB tights or white boots showing thing is something that I had to come to terms with this summer. To be honest I'd never been a fan of OTB tights as I prefer to see the boots. However the day before the Opens I had a lesson and both pairs of my footed tights were in the wash so I wore OTB tights for the first time. My coach, who like me, prefers footed tights to OTB ones decided that in fact, I looked better in the OTB ones, so we decided to go for those. Then my friend who works in the results room every year commented that judges do prefer to see white boots. So the day before a big competition and I didn't know what to wear for the best. In the end though I stuck with the OTB tights as per my coach's instructions.

I can't help but feel it's a shame that these minor things can make a difference. My coach doesn't believe that the style of tights you wear will affect your mark, but you do wonder.

Nicki

[SDFanatic]

There is a lady at my rink (I may have mentioned her before, so please forgive the repeat) who I think is a fairly good skater. Yes, she may not be a gold medal skater, but I can tell she is doing it and having fun. The first (and only so far because of the comments) time she tested, she wore pants, the judges told her the next time she comes she better be wearing a skirt, She does nto want to wear a skirt, it's not that she hates them, but she is too modest herself to do so. In my numerous emails to the USFSA and their replies, the clothing restrictions do not apply to testing, only to competitions.

My designer has said the same thing but also added comulsaries to the list. Your not skating to a theme or even music in either of those, so whats the big deal?

As for boot covers or over the boot tights, does it really matter? I mean really, tell me how your boots look, or even how your clothing looks affects your skating? If the judges don't like it, then that is their opinion is it not? Their opinion is not supposed to be reflected in the scores that they give you, they are supposed to be judging you for how you skate. And if your doing a program, then it becomes in how you interconnect between what your doing and what it is. If they don't think the outfit is appropriate then they can use the .1 reduction to reflect that. But to reflect it any more then that in the scores or to force you to change to their opinion is unethical.

One shouldn't need to cater the the wimes of a judges opinion of what a skater should be doing, or even more, of how they should dress. (And no, you can't go skating in the nude! Well, not yet anyways) As I said, skating (except for testing, technically) is an individual sport, how you interpet it, and how you think it should be portrayed should be your decision. If everyone catered to the wimes of the judges, then have we not lost the sense of being ourselves and individuals? Really, maybe the judges should tell you what music they like, what order you should do your moves in and where they should be done and what poses they like best. As well as what colors they like, if they prefer sleeves or sleevless, how long or short your skirt should be, and maybe even tell you what color your hair should be? That way you can skate how they want you to skate, and not how you want to skate guaranteeing that you fit into their opinion of what skating is, and not what you think it is.

I guess I'm in the wrong sport for wanting to express my individuality.

Steven

[Mrs Redboots]

Well, my boots look better with OTB tights, because they are old and scratched. My coach dislikes boot-covers, and tells me not to wear them at competitions, which I don't, but if I didn't have OTB tights I would - at least, I'd wear the tan ones that match my tights. After all, tan skates and tights look very similar, don't they?

To be honest, I think that as long as your clothing conforms to regulations (I know at least one British skater who was penalised as she didn't realise USFSA regulations required the midriff to be covered, and hers wasn't), the judges don't mind too much.

At the lowest levels, I think the judges are far less picky than we give them credit for. They are, after all, trying to encourage skaters, not put them off. I know one woman who tested her Level 1 in a tracksuit, and as far as I know, nothing was said. On the other hand, a girl who was taking the old Silver test (about level 9 or 10 by today's standards, I think) and was borderline, was failed partly because her underwear showed. I gather the judges felt that this lack of attention to detail for a skater of that level reflected a lack of maturity in her skating, which was not therefore up to standard.

So I think that unless and until we reach those rarefied heights - and for those of us who started in our 40s, that's not exactly likely - we needn't worry too much. I like to wear nail-polish, full make-up and glitter when I compete, but that's because I feel better when I do so, not because the judges even notice! And I couldn't wear nail polish at the last competition as just before I left the house I broke a nail so badly it cut the flesh at the side, and no way could I put polish on it! I had been going to put polish on in the car, but had to be content with buffing, instead.... but we did better than we have done for some time, so really it's the skating what counts....

[skaternum]

If there's one thing I've learned in my years of skating, it's that people are constantly incorrectly attributing all sorts of evil to judges. Everything from how they'll fail you if you wear ugly outfits to how they always pass the students of a particular coach. Usually, when you get down to it, it's a load of hooey! Most of it is heresay or some urban legend. It probably got started because some kid who would have failed anyway was wearing boot covers (or whatever the offense in question is) the day he failed. Judges may, indeed, have preferences. But most of them know the difference between a personal preference and a test standard (or USFSA rule). If your skating is solid and you're not violating an actual rule, just take the test.

And yes, there is a rule that men have to wear pants. If you want to dispute it, blame USFSA, not the local judges.

By the way, about the white dress that was see-through and the referee forced a deduction -- the referee was absolutely correct. There is a rule (can't cite it because I'm at work, away from my rule book) that says the outfit must be appropriate for athletic competition. See-through white lycra is not appropriate for athletic competition. I'm glad to hear that some people are actually enforcing this rule. I think things have gotten a little out of hand.

[Jade]

Thats disgusting!
I thought we had a new judging system now!
You cant judge people by what they wear!
Argh this makes me so mad!

[IceDanceSk8er]

If you have any problems with a judge or have questions regarding the criteria a judge uses at test sessions, then I suggest you or your club contact the Regional or Sectional Vice Chair of Judging in your area.

[sk8er1964]

Judges are human, and therefore have certain biases, no matter how they try to stick to judging by the rules - that's a part of our sport. I think it would be impossible to totally remove these biases from judging.

I'll give you an example. Say you have a competition situation where two skaters perform all of the elements equally well with the same technical merit and a similar level of presentation. However, one of the skaters is wearing OTB tights with a holes in the boot area and a practice dress, and the other is wearing a competition dress with good tights. It is human nature to prefer the skater in the competition attire over the other skater, because the attire of the skaters show their attention to detail and caring. Its kind of like going to a job interview in non-traditional clothing and wondering why you didn't get hired.

As far as the difference in competition attire and test attire, I think the test attire should conform to the basic rules the same as competitive attire, even if it is less formal. You are participating in an official, sanctioned event as a representative of the club and of the USFSA/ISI, and should conform to the rules set in place by those organizations. It's not like you have to conform all of the time, just where it is prudent. Life is full of compromises.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by Jade
Thats disgusting!
I thought we had a new judging system now!
You cant judge people by what they wear!
Argh this makes me so mad! BUT, in many walks of life, you wear the correct uniform to do whatever it is you are doing, whether this is belonging to a uniformed organisation like the Girl Guides, or playing in a team sport of some kind, or even some schools (a majority, in this country, but I believe that's not true in the USA). Wearing the right clothes for the job is a big part of life, and there's no reason on earth that shouldn't be true of skating, too.

[dbny]

Originally posted by SDFanatic
There is a lady at my rink (I may have mentioned her before, so please forgive the repeat) who I think is a fairly good skater. Yes, she may not be a gold medal skater, but I can tell she is doing it and having fun. The first (and only so far because of the comments) time she tested, she wore pants, the judges told her the next time she comes she better be wearing a skirt, She does nto want to wear a skirt, it's not that she hates them, but she is too modest herself to do so.

I know a woman who showed up for her first test in black leggings, not knowing that a skirt or dress was required. Luckily, her coach happened to have a black wrap around skirt with her, so the skater just added that and flew through her test. She bought one of her own, and now always wears her same black leggings with the wrap on top, with no problems. You might suggest that to your aquaintance who is too modest for skirts.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by Jade
I thought we had a new judging system now!
You cant judge people by what they wear!
Argh this makes me so mad!

To whose comments are you referring? The original poster's or one of the respondants?

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Jade
Thats disgusting!
I thought we had a new judging system now!
You cant judge people by what they wear!
Argh this makes me so mad!

Where on earth did you get the impression that the new judging system would be blind to attire?

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by skaternum
If there's one thing I've learned in my years of skating, it's that people are constantly incorrectly attributing all sorts of evil to judges. Everything from how they'll fail you if you wear ugly outfits to how they always pass the students of a particular coach. Usually, when you get down to it, it's a load of hooey! Most of it is heresay or some urban legend. It probably got started because some kid who would have failed anyway was wearing boot covers (or whatever the offense in question is) the day he failed. Judges may, indeed, have preferences. But most of them know the difference between a personal preference and a test standard (or USFSA rule). If your skating is solid and you're not violating an actual rule, just take the test.
ITA. These things are usually perception problems by onlookers who haven't reviewed the actual papers or judges sheets & then overexaggerate the situation rather than face reality regarding the skating quality. Ask the people who are telling you their skater failed for wearing OTB tights if they filed a complaint with the club test chair or USFSA & what happened, because I am sure it will turn out the skater did not fail for wearing OTB tights.

I do not see the problem with a judge writing "Nice dress" on a test form. They can write "nice costume", "nice music selection", "nicely done", "nice whatever", as long as they are judging the test according to the test rules. How unfortunate that some skaters see this as some kind of negative feedback when I'm sure the judge is trying to be supportive. :??

[garyc254]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Ask the people who are telling you their skater failed for wearing OTB tights if they filed a complaint with the club test chair or USFSA

WHAT!!!! She would probably never pass another test in her district again. ;)

Dealing with "some" judges is like dealing with "some" police officers. It all depends on his/her mood, personal likes and dislikes, and general attitude. And if you get on their bad side, they're always looking for you.

(Notice I said "some". No harsh generalizations. It might even be a "few". Like in any other activity, it only takes one to spoil a batch.)

It's also interesting to look at different judges comments on the same skater's skate. I remember where one judge complimented a skaters deep edges while the judge next to her wrote that her edges weren't deep enough. 8O :??

All in all, the potential for judge bias is the reason I won't ever test.

[skaternum]

I'm at work and thinking/typing in-between stuff, so I haven't had a lot of time to think how I'll phrase things. If this post offends, I aplogize in advance. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just typing quickly without much forethought.

Anyway, skating is a sport that one chooses to participate in. There are many ways to participate: skating recreationally on your own, testing via ISI, competing via ISI, competing at rink-based competitions, testing via USFSA, competing via USFSA, etc. Each of these options carries with it a set of rules, norms, and standards of behavior. Every organization or activity has its own standards for dress, communciation, etc. If you choose to participate in one of those options, you effectively agree to those rules. For example, when you join USFSA, you are agreeing to abide by their rules on eligibility, testing, and competing. That means you must first know the rules. (It's also a good idea to "lay low" for a while to figure out what the norms and standards of behavior are.) Sort of like lurking on a forum like this to see how people generally behave. If you don't like the rules, as a participating member, you are free to work to get them changed. It's a right and responsibility of membership.

So if there are legitimate concerns over judging standards, you should communicate that to the proper authorities in the sport. What you should not do is accept gossip and innuendo (especially if it's likely to be the result of "sour grapes" or "I wuz robbed" emotions), then blame the sport or organization for it.

I'll repeat my favorite phrase: get a rule book! Read it. Learn it. If you don't understand it, get USFSA to help you. If you don't think it's being applied correctly, pursue it.

[batikat]

Originally posted by Skatewind
I do not see the problem with a judge writing "Nice dress" on a test form. They can write "nice costume", "nice music selection", "nicely done", "nice whatever", as long as they are judging the test according to the test rules. How unfortunate that some skaters see this as some kind of negative feedback when I'm sure the judge is trying to be supportive. :??

I would agree that these sorts of comments are just the judges being pleasant and not implying that a 'not nice' dress etc would have cost you any marks or that you did better because of your dress.

On my Free dance test I got the comment 'nice arms' which made me laugh (having always thought my arms were rather too fat especially round the tops.) Of course she meant nice 'use' of arms and quite a few judges have taken to adding a smiley face to their comments to show they are being friendly!!!

I have heard so many conflicting stories about what judges do and don't like that it probably means that they are really pretty impartial.

When I competed recently, dancing to a march rhythm, and went to the trouble of making a dress with a vaguely military style it wasn't because I really thought the dress would make any difference to the judges marks but because it helped me to skate in an appropriately 'military' style because I was dressed that way. I wouldnt' have skated it so well in a pretty, pretty, floaty dress as it wouldn't have suited the style of the music.

[Madame Saccoche]

I had a judge comment on how nice my dress was on a dance test, I passed the test with very good marks and a lot of good comments on technique so I don't think it was the dress that got me the test! It was more in the tone of "by the way, that dress looks really nice on you".

I tend to be very conservative with my test attire and make up, I don't want it to detract from my skating, I also don't want the bother of worrying about costume and make-up issues. I'm a lot more flashy with competition attire, especially when I'm doing a showcase.


Skating in the nude8O not where I skate, average temperature is 4-8 degrees celcius and the ice gets so hacked up, it's like skating on sandpaper:P :D

[garyc254]

Testing in the nude. Now that's one sure fire way for me not to pass a test. The judges would be laughing so hard at my body that they wouldn't see my skating. :roll: :lol:

Or maybe that would be a good thing. 8O ;)

[Jade]

Where on earth did you get the impression that the new judging system would be blind to attire?(Icedancer:S)


Um...what exactly are you talking about?

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by garyc254
WHAT!!!! She would probably never pass another test in her district again. ;)
The presumption is still that the skater is failing the test because of over the boot tights. Not only is that an inaccurate presumption, but it is an actionable violation of the rules. That is not the reason the skater is failing the test, no matter what people are telling this poster. That's why I said question the skater more thoroughly when you hear things like this & you will find it is untrue.

[thumbyskates]

Just thought I'd add my two bits...I went to a competition on the weekend, a regional, competitive competition (in Canada of course), and was just a spectator, and didn't compete. I had the opportunity to talk to a couple judges and a retired judge from my club. This is what we were told.

Judges will mark what they like, even if that means on appearence, especially at the low level. They're not paid, and for the most part could care less about the final outcome. Sure this isn't true for all the judges - some care a great deal.

We had one judge tell us that if two skaters skated exactly the same, and he didn't know who to give it to her, he'd give it to the one in the yellow dress, because he likes yellow better. Oh and one judge told us if he heard the song "Up in the Clouds" (or something about Clouds...I can't remember the exact song), that skater comes last no matter what they skate like.

Interpretive is the worst, I'd have to say, though. Get this...my friend was competing in GOLD Interpretive, and there is a rule that states that "no theatrical costumes shall be worn" or whatever. This includes feathers and we have been told that in the past. Well, the girl who placed third was wearing feathers, and the judges told her that was fine. There is no definition to skating anymore. In the past I've started my Interpretive laying the ice - I've had multiple people tell me this was just fine, and others tell me that it's illegal. I've a judge even tell me HYDROBLADING is illegal, because you're hand touches the ice, and they are forced to deduct .3?? Who really knows what's right and what's not?

So it can go two ways, I figure. Either you go out there, be normal, skate to slow, pretty music, wear a "pretty" yellow dress and those judges on those days, will choose the one who chose to be "different", or go out there, skate to what you want, wear hot pink and have FUN...and judges choose the ordinary that day. I figure, at least you had fun!!! After all, shouldn't that REALLY be what it's about?

Kortney!!! (Sorry for the babbling, I just had a lot to say)

[spicyicey]

I have totally lost the "evil" perception of judges. Yes, they're human, and some are harsher than others, but in the end, they pass you if they think you deserve it. It's much easier to test if you treat the judges as actual human beings rather than evil-eyed monsters.

I've had judges comment positively on my music and dress, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with that - it definitely doesn't mean that they wouldn't pass an equally skilled skater with a dress they didn't particularly like. I even had a judge who gave me a retry, yet still signed a smiley face next to his name. At the time, I thought it was evil, but now I believe that it was just his way of saying, "keep trying, you're just not quite ready yet."

I don't find anything wrong with the fact that skating organizations include dress guidelines. There are similar things in workplaces, schools, and other sports. Yes, it does limit some people's tastes, but in the end, it is necessary to stop people from wearing inappropriate attire.

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by skaternum
If there's one thing I've learned in my years of skating, it's that people are constantly incorrectly attributing all sorts of evil to judges. Everything from how they'll fail you if you wear ugly outfits to how they always pass the students of a particular coach. Usually, when you get down to it, it's a load of hooey! Most of it is heresay or some urban legend. It probably got started because some kid who would have failed anyway was wearing boot covers (or whatever the offense in question is) the day he failed. Judges may, indeed, have preferences. But most of them know the difference between a personal preference and a test standard (or USFSA rule). If your skating is solid and you're not violating an actual rule, just take the test.

I'd love to say that they are not, but after talking to several coaches, and many skaters who have competed, there are some judges that are very biased. So even if you skate the perfect program, you may still get lower points because of some bias a judge has


And yes, there is a rule that men have to wear pants. If you want to dispute it, blame USFSA, not the local judges.

I didn't say anything about wearing or not wearing pants for men, and yes, I am taking this issue up with the USFSA, I have been in talks with them for almost a year now discusing SSR 19.01. And it's not actually USFSA that handles this, as they mainly follow the rules of ISU. I think the rule of restricting what one can wear to specific type of clothing to be sexist and out of date.

By the way, about the white dress that was see-through and the referee forced a deduction -- the referee was absolutely correct. There is a rule (can't cite it because I'm at work, away from my rule book) that says the outfit must be appropriate for athletic competition. See-through white lycra is not appropriate for athletic competition. I'm glad to hear that some people are actually enforcing this rule. I think things have gotten a little out of hand.

While true that that outfit may not have been suitable for athletic competition, the rules state that anyone in violation of it shall recieve a .1 point reduction in the second set of marks. There is nothing that says that she would get even more points deducted, or even barred from competing. So even with her .1 deduction and she placed first, they could not deduct even more to deny her of getting first. To keep her from getting the points she deserved for her technical as well as artistic work would be unethical.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Judges are human, and therefore have certain biases, no matter how they try to stick to judging by the rules - that's a part of our sport. I think it would be impossible to totally remove these biases from judging.

I'll give you an example. Say you have a competition situation where two skaters perform all of the elements equally well with the same technical merit and a similar level of presentation. However, one of the skaters is wearing OTB tights with a holes in the boot area and a practice dress, and the other is wearing a competition dress with good tights. It is human nature to prefer the skater in the competition attire over the other skater, because the attire of the skaters show their attention to detail and caring. Its kind of like going to a job interview in non-traditional clothing and wondering why you didn't get hired.

I'll agree with you there, and thats one reason why I will never be a judge as I cannnot be unbiased. I would hope to not let such silly things detract from my abilty to score however. As for being hired or not on ones attire, is that not unlike judging one based on their skin color, or some other physical or outward apperance rather then their actual ability to do the job?

As far as the difference in competition attire and test attire, I think the test attire should conform to the basic rules the same as competitive attire, even if it is less formal. You are participating in an official, sanctioned event as a representative of the club and of the USFSA/ISI, and should conform to the rules set in place by those organizations. It's not like you have to conform all of the time, just where it is prudent. Life is full of compromises.

SSR 19.01 applies only to competitions, and not to testing, it's just one of those things that has been ongoing and everyone just follows along. I used this example once for someone who could not understand why one could not conform, or choose not to conform. Lets say this persons name is Freda and that all the rinks in the world decided that they wouldn't let anoyone with the name Freda skate. If one were to conform to the rules then they would not be able to skate, this persons answer however was just to change their name and said it was a silly rule. And thats exactly how I see it, it's just silly to restrict ones ability to express themselves in such a way.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
BUT, in many walks of life, you wear the correct uniform to do whatever it is you are doing, whether this is belonging to a uniformed organisation like the Girl Guides, or playing in a team sport of some kind, or even some schools (a majority, in this country, but I believe that's not true in the USA). Wearing the right clothes for the job is a big part of life, and there's no reason on earth that shouldn't be true of skating, too.

Ahh yes, very true, but I thought skating was about the individual and about the skaters ability to express themselves? (well, except for synchro skating I would say as it's a team sport, but thats teams, not individuals)

I guess I'm just weird for judging others for something other then their physical apperance or the kind of clothing they are wearing.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by dbny
I know a woman who showed up for her first test in black leggings, not knowing that a skirt or dress was required. Luckily, her coach happened to have a black wrap around skirt with her, so the skater just added that and flew through her test. She bought one of her own, and now always wears her same black leggings with the wrap on top, with no problems. You might suggest that to your aquaintance who is too modest for skirts.

I shall the next time I see her, and will bring it up to the USFSA again, but I'm going to wait a bit as we have been tossing things back and forth a lot with them. As I stated in the one post however, skirts are not required for testing, only competition, its just that the biased judges insisted that she wear one, and most likely she would not get away with black tights either. My desinger pointed it out also that the rules do not say anything about not allowing pants or even requiring tights. It only says to have a pant and skirt that covers the hips and posterior, course some skirts don't really fit that rule do they? So strange that ladies can go all over the board with their attire, but men cannot, silly sexist rules.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by Skatewind
ITA. These things are usually perception problems by onlookers who haven't reviewed the actual papers or judges sheets & then overexaggerate the situation rather than face reality regarding the skating quality. Ask the people who are telling you their skater failed for wearing OTB tights if they filed a complaint with the club test chair or USFSA & what happened, because I am sure it will turn out the skater did not fail for wearing OTB tights.

I do not see the problem with a judge writing "Nice dress" on a test form. They can write "nice costume", "nice music selection", "nicely done", "nice whatever", as long as they are judging the test according to the test rules. How unfortunate that some skaters see this as some kind of negative feedback when I'm sure the judge is trying to be supportive. :??

While I agree that such remarks can be taken either way, I was informed that the "Nice Dress" remark was made in a suxual conotation, I was also informed that judge did get disciplined for the remark.

As for the cute skater judge, I give you this example I was told, one skater was size 2 skater who fell, had unsteady edges, compared to a size 14 skater who did not fall and was much more fluidic on the ice, the size 2 skater won.

Trust me, if a judge ever told me to my face or wrote it down that adults shouldn't be skating or some other biased remark, I will do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. (oh, and not my actions, their actions)

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by thumbyskates
Just thought I'd add my two bits...I went to a competition on the weekend, a regional, competitive competition (in Canada of course), and was just a spectator, and didn't compete. I had the opportunity to talk to a couple judges and a retired judge from my club. This is what we were told.

Judges will mark what they like, even if that means on appearence, especially at the low level. They're not paid, and for the most part could care less about the final outcome. Sure this isn't true for all the judges - some care a great deal.

We had one judge tell us that if two skaters skated exactly the same, and he didn't know who to give it to her, he'd give it to the one in the yellow dress, because he likes yellow better. Oh and one judge told us if he heard the song "Up in the Clouds" (or something about Clouds...I can't remember the exact song), that skater comes last no matter what they skate like.

Interpretive is the worst, I'd have to say, though. Get this...my friend was competing in GOLD Interpretive, and there is a rule that states that "no theatrical costumes shall be worn" or whatever. This includes feathers and we have been told that in the past. Well, the girl who placed third was wearing feathers, and the judges told her that was fine. There is no definition to skating anymore. In the past I've started my Interpretive laying the ice - I've had multiple people tell me this was just fine, and others tell me that it's illegal. I've a judge even tell me HYDROBLADING is illegal, because you're hand touches the ice, and they are forced to deduct .3?? Who really knows what's right and what's not?

So it can go two ways, I figure. Either you go out there, be normal, skate to slow, pretty music, wear a "pretty" yellow dress and those judges on those days, will choose the one who chose to be "different", or go out there, skate to what you want, wear hot pink and have FUN...and judges choose the ordinary that day. I figure, at least you had fun!!! After all, shouldn't that REALLY be what it's about?

Kortney!!! (Sorry for the babbling, I just had a lot to say)

And I thought maybe I was just dreaming all this up given some of the others remarks, I guess I am awake after all!

As for interpretive, I heard it's an anything goes type thing, no silly rules to abide by, one can even do the illigal moves I think and even wear illegal clothing. I'm working with my designer on this one also, she's thinking about doing a pairs number with it.

It sounds your as perplexed as I am, I hope it's a good thing!

Steven

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by SDFanatic


....... As for being hired or not on ones attire, is that not unlike judging one based on their skin color, or some other physical or outward apperance rather then their actual ability to do the job?
Steven [/B]

Actually, it is nothing like judging someone on their skin color or other physical trait. People can choose their attire, they cannot chose their race or other physical attributes (unless, of course, they have had some type of plastic surgery). My point was that wearing something that doesn't conform to whatever rules or norms are in effect is a choice that may have consequences.

[Skatewind]

Some of the remarks about judges & judging are so way off base it just goes to show how these perception problems are set into motion & can take on a life of their own. There are way too many ifs & probablys to give serious consideration to some of these ideas. I have seen thousands of tests over the years, & plenty of skaters who have taken & passed them wearing black tights, leggings with wrap skirts over them, boot covers, over the boot tights, size 14, etc. They pass the tests because they put out the standard of quality skating needed to pass the test. While there will always be a problem here & there with a few judges or tests, the implication that it's standard practice & they're all doing these things is inaccurate. Watching tests & reviewing the actual marks/comments, or asking the test chair or judges directly for information is always more helpful than relying on feedback from the disgruntled "wuz robbed" skater/coach/parent contingent, who would sometimes much rather blame it on the black tights than a less than stellar skating performance or make an objective yet critical review of the skating.

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Actually, it is nothing like judging someone on their skin color or other physical trait. People can choose their attire, they cannot chose their race or other physical attributes (unless, of course, they have had some type of plastic surgery). My point was that wearing something that doesn't conform to whatever rules or norms are in effect is a choice that may have consequences.

Ahh, where have I heard this line from before? Its certainly not in the book I read, but it sure must be taught because it's the same words out of different peoples mouths.

Amelia Jenks Bloomer had the choice to only wear skirts, but she chose to wear pants, from her efforts it became normal for women to pants. Sonja Henie combined ballet and skating to make skating what it is today, normal skating used to be just stroking around on the ice, no jumps or artistic type moves. She is also why women skate in white boots instead of black and why skating skirts don't go all the down to the knees like they used to. There are many examples of normal people doing un-normal things, and a great deal of things that are normal, or used to be normal that are not normal for some people.

And no, a person who was born with a birth defect or their skin color do not have a choice, and some people go through extrodinary lengths to become normal so they are not ridiculed by people who judge people in such a manor.

And yes, I do have a choice in what attire I wear, but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell me what I can and can't wear? It's just a piece of cloth that covers my skin only because society deams nudity to be a bad thing. It didn't used to be that way, but now it is, women didn't used to be able to vote or wear pants, but now they can. African Americans used to be slaves, now they are not, times change, people change, change is normal, as am I.

Steven

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by batikat
I would agree that these sorts of comments are just the judges being pleasant and not implying that a 'not nice' dress etc would have cost you any marks or that you did better because of your dress. And they can be tactful, too, like the judge who wrote on my husband's last test form: "Try to keep your hips forward more", which of course was a polite way of saying "Don't stick your bum out!". Husband thought it very funny.

[LWalsh]

I may regret this, but here's my .02


"...And yes, I do have a choice in what attire I wear, but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell me what I can and can't wear?..."

Of course not. No one has the right to tell anybody what to do. EXCEPT that by choosing to join the sport's national governing body and choosing to compete in a sanctioned event, you ARE agreeing to abide by their rules.

Skating isn't just skating. Competitive skating is sport and therefore has rules to level the playing field. There are other forms of skating where there are no rules and you are free to express yourself in whatever manner you please. I think in Las Vegas they did have a nude skating show.

As for Artisitc events, these were created specifically for this purpose. You can wear whatever you want and skate however you want. The drawback is that you are certainly judged on the personal preferences of the judges. There is no scale to figure which program was funnier or more artistic than another. It is by nature subjective.

Judges do get a bad rap. They don't spend countless hours trial judging and studying figure skating so they can be unfair to people they don't like. However, to suggest that judges be competely blind to preference is silly. That would mean all skaters would have to look the same ...and having to conform to rules, is what the original complaint was.

[sk8ndancr]

Back to the subject of OTB tights and boot covers; several years ago when I was testing my bronze dances, (one passed, two didn't), one of the judges came up to me afterwards and asked me if I wanted a word of advice. I said, "Sure!", and she replied, "Lose the boot covers!" When I asked why, as I thought flesh colored tights or covers made the leg look longer, she told me that one of the other judges had remarked, "Oh, here comes another one with clubfoot!" She said that judges like to see white boots on the ice, because the foot will look better, as the boot blends in with the ice more. If your toe point is not exactly perfect, it will not stand out and be noticed (as much) against the white ice. If the boot is not white and your toe is not pointed, or the foot is in any awkward position, it will really scream out. (Sorry all you guys in black boots!) So I would rather wear the white skates and hope some little flaws go unnoticed! When I remarked that the skates looked cleaner with the covers, she said, "Polish them!" Of course, if you are a really wonderful skater who doesn't have to worry about pointing toes, etc., you could probably wear turquoise diamond studded OTB tights and pass your test, but if wearing white skates will help me get a better score, I figure I can use any help I can get!

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by LWalsh
I may regret this, but here's my .02


"...And yes, I do have a choice in what attire I wear, but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell me what I can and can't wear?..."

Of course not. No one has the right to tell anybody what to do. EXCEPT that by choosing to join the sport's national governing body and choosing to compete in a sanctioned event, you ARE agreeing to abide by their rules.

I won't disagree with you on this point, I disagree with the it, which is why I'm working on changing it, until then, I'll just live with it.

Skating isn't just skating. Competitive skating is sport and therefore has rules to level the playing field. There are other forms of skating where there are no rules and you are free to express yourself in whatever manner you please. I think in Las Vegas they did have a nude skating show.

I agree also, however such events are few and far between and much harder to come by compared to regular events. As for nude skating, I thought it was a myth!

As for Artisitc events, these were created specifically for this purpose. You can wear whatever you want and skate however you want. The drawback is that you are certainly judged on the personal preferences of the judges. There is no scale to figure which program was funnier or more artistic than another. It is by nature subjective.

Hmm, maybe have one of those applause meters and let the audience decide?

Judges do get a bad rap. They don't spend countless hours trial judging and studying figure skating so they can be unfair to people they don't like. However, to suggest that judges be competely blind to preference is silly. That would mean all skaters would have to look the same ...and having to conform to rules, is what the original complaint was.

I won't disagree that some judges do get a bad rap, but it seems by the remarks of some on here, that some do deserve that remark. And that was my question if anyone had come across such things.

Some people may hate me for this remark, but if skating was like almost every other sport out there, every skater would be dressed the same, they would be skating to the same music, and they would do the same moves in the same order.

But skating is about the individual, and how that individual expresses themselves to the music they are playing and the moves that they do. That is what makes skating skating, and it's just one of the many reasons I like it.

Steven

[SDFanatic]

Originally posted by sk8ndancr
Back to the subject of OTB tights and boot covers; several years ago when I was testing my bronze dances, (one passed, two didn't), one of the judges came up to me afterwards and asked me if I wanted a word of advice. I said, "Sure!", and she replied, "Lose the boot covers!" When I asked why, as I thought flesh colored tights or covers made the leg look longer, she told me that one of the other judges had remarked, "Oh, here comes another one with clubfoot!" She said that judges like to see white boots on the ice, because the foot will look better, as the boot blends in with the ice more. If your toe point is not exactly perfect, it will not stand out and be noticed (as much) against the white ice. If the boot is not white and your toe is not pointed, or the foot is in any awkward position, it will really scream out. (Sorry all you guys in black boots!) So I would rather wear the white skates and hope some little flaws go unnoticed! When I remarked that the skates looked cleaner with the covers, she said, "Polish them!" Of course, if you are a really wonderful skater who doesn't have to worry about pointing toes, etc., you could probably wear turquoise diamond studded OTB tights and pass your test, but if wearing white skates will help me get a better score, I figure I can use any help I can get!

Exactly, I would hope however that the judge who made that remark did not unfairly give you a lower score for wearing them. And I hope you don't take this the wrong way either, as when I wore OTB tights, I also thought I had clubfeet! It made my feet look so big, it didn't look all that bad looking at them, but from the picture I took, they looked huge, course I have big feet already, ah well.

Funny thing about white boots, I've heard people complain that it blends in with the ice too much, some people made the remark of skaters skating on stumps! Course ladies used to wear black boots, and I thought it was something new for men to skate in white boots, but I see it's not. Course I'm stuck in black pants so I'll have to get black boot covers, my designer says it's too much of a contrast, while I personally think it doesn't look all that bad. And of course I end up back to the begining if there are judges who don't like boot covers, of which I hear is true for judges in this area.


Steven

[skaternum]

So here's my unsolicited advice: do everything you can to change the rule about competiton attire. Until then, if you choose to compete, abide by the rules or take the deductions.

If you choose to test, I think you should wear whatever you want and see what happens. How do you know that what "everyone" tells you is right? Does your coach say your skating is strong enough to easily pass the test under the stress of testing? If so, take the test wearing what you want. That will tell you a lot about the judges. If you skate fabulously and they fail you, you may have some legitimate beefs. (If, however, your skating is borderline or your test is iffy, it won't necessarily be a valid litmus test of the situation. You can't blame the evil, biased judges if you might have failed anyway.) But if you don't try it out and see, you're just whining about unsubstantiated rumors and gossip.

It's certainly your right to take on "the establishment." But understand that not everyone is going to agree with you. I perceive a certain "I'm right; you're wrong" air to your posts. Assuming that judges are biased is not going to sit well with a lot of people. Labeling everyone who disagrees with you as biased and judgemental is also not going to sit well with a lot of people. Challenging the status quo is a very normal thing to do, but that doesn't mean you're right or that you'll get your way. Are you prepared to deal with the fallout of your actions? (My guess is that you are, based on your postings.)

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by skaternum
If you choose to test, I think you should wear whatever you want and see what happens. How do you know that what "everyone" tells you is right? Does your coach say your skating is strong enough to easily pass the test under the stress of testing? If so, take the test wearing what you want. That will tell you a lot about the judges. If you skate fabulously and they fail you, you may have some legitimate beefs. (If, however, your skating is borderline or your test is iffy, it won't necessarily be a valid litmus test of the situation. You can't blame the evil, biased judges if you might have failed anyway.) But if you don't try it out and see, you're just whining about unsubstantiated rumors and gossip.

This is not good, sound advice - it's dumb. I would strongly urge you not to take this path. Dressing for a test or competition is not rocket science.

First and foremost, ask your coach. They have probably taken many skaters through tests and know what is appropriate attire to wear. If they don't, ask your club's test chair. Tests are not free and if a skater does not pass, then they'll have to wait until the next test session and pay again. Do you really think it's wise for a skater to play the sort of game you're suggesting? What if they're taking a required test that will allow them to qualify to compete at a certain level?

[LWalsh]

Icedancesk8er,

I don't think you read the orginal post in context. The original poster who was expressing that he did not want to have to comply with the current standards of atire for competing or testing because he does not agree with it. The poster wasn't looking for advice on how to dress for tests or competitions. He was expressing dissatisfaction that the current rules prevent him from fully expressing himself in whatever attire he chooses.

LW

[Skatewind]

Aside from the on-going speculative comments about the judges, the cup half empty approach to costuming is not a very creative one. The rules are really not so extremely rigid that one cannot come up with a comfortable and/or creative costume without a lot of effort. Considering all the real problems that exist in USFS that require attention, I simply don't see this one being that high on the priority list.

[LWalsh]

Aside from the on-going speculative comments about the judges, the cup half empty approach to costuming is not a very creative one. The rules are really not so extremely rigid that one cannot come up with a comfortable and/or creative costume without a lot of effort. Considering all the real problems that exist in USFS that require attention, I simply don't see this one being that high on the priority list.

The poster is a male who would like to wear a dress to compete. The rules do in fact prevent this.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by LWalsh
Icedancesk8er,

I don't think you read the orginal post in context. The original poster who was expressing that he did not want to have to comply with the current standards of atire for competing or testing because he does not agree with it. The poster wasn't looking for advice on how to dress for tests or competitions. He was expressing dissatisfaction that the current rules prevent him from fully expressing himself in whatever attire he chooses.

LW

Hey LW...I was referring to the suggestion that skaternum made about wearing "whatever you want" and "see what happens." In regards to the rules, they are the rules. I don't have a USFSA handbook readily available (I'm at work) but I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere under testing.

[LWalsh]

Hey LW...I was referring to the suggestion that skaternum made about wearing "whatever you want" and "see what happens." In regards to the rules, they are the rules. I don't have a USFSA handbook readily available (I'm at work) but I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere under testing.

I understand.

There isn't a dress requirement for testing, only competing in USFSA.

[dani]

I agree with Skaternum's comments and the followup from LWalsh. It seems simple from how I see it. If Steven's main goal is to pass the test, he needs to be "traditional" and possibly travel to an area where he isn't known. However, if the main goal is to get out there and be himself, then about the only thing to do is to take the test and see what happens. I guess the other alternative would be to talk with potential judges in advance, but I am not sure what that would help.

As far as judging goes, I think anyone who is that blatently non-traditional, whatever the expression, is going to lose any benefit of the doubt during testing.

I don't see one person making a difference with this unless he can create lots of allies. And, I think that (mis?)conceptions about males in figure skating may make that hard to do. In other words, most people will instantly assume Steven is Gay which just goes to show that all men in figure skating are gay.

Good luck Steven no matter what!

ps) What do the ISI rules say about competition attire?

[skaternum]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
This is not good, sound advice - it's dumb. I would strongly urge you not to take this path. Dressing for a test or competition is not rocket science.

Do you really think it's wise for a skater to play the sort of game you're suggesting? What if they're taking a required test that will allow them to qualify to compete at a certain level?

I think you missed my point. In my earlier post, I'm trying to say "suck it up and play by the rules." In the recent post, to which you reply, I'm trying to say "put your money where your mouth is." They're 2 sides of the same coin. Dani correctly summed it up. If his intent is to test, compete, and be taken seriously, he'll have to play by the rules. If his intent is to draw attention to what he perceives as the restrictive nature of the rules or local norms, then he needs to quit whining and test in a dress. You can't have it both ways.

[tazsk8s]

Originally posted by SDFanatic
, and I thought it was something new for men to skate in white boots, but I see it's not. Course I'm stuck in black pants so I'll have to get black boot covers, my designer says it's too much of a contrast, while I personally think it doesn't look all that bad. And of course I end up back to the begining if there are judges who don't like boot covers, of which I hear is true for judges in this area.


I have seen some of the synchro kids use "Sk8tape" to change their white boots into tan. One of my daughter's friends skates on a national-level synchro team and she has done this, unless you are *right* next to her you can't even tell that she doesn't actually have tan boots - they were really careful about how they put it on. Might be an option for you if you don't want to risk the "offensive" boot covers, I'd be surprised if it wasn't available in black. Supposedly it does not leave a residue either, so you can remove it when you are done with the black and go back to your white boots if you want.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by LWalsh
The poster is a male who would like to wear a dress to compete. The rules do in fact prevent this.
Okay, I guess I didn't realize that just from reading this thread. Then yes, the pants would be required for the official events. Do interpretive instead if it is that objectionable to you to wear pants or put the skirt on over them.

Wearing a dress in interpretive worked great for Jay Kobayashi. Of course, Jay Kobayashi is a terrific skater with wonderful style too! :D

My other assessment still stands though - this is simply not going to be an issue that's high on the priority list of the USFS. Maybe you could start your own skating organization & offer your own events which would let you develop them however you want.

[SDFanatic]

Oh my, what a thread! Unfortunately many assumptions have been made, of which I regret in not starting a new post as most of this is not relevant to what I was asking.

I asked if people came across judges that seemed to have a bias to what a skater should actually be doing. As I said, some judges do not like boot covers, therefore they have a bias, some judges hate adult skaters, another bias, some judges prefer yellow, another bias, and some hate some forms of music, yet another bias. All I was asking was if people had come across such biases in their travels. Several people pointed out that those biases do exist, while other have pointed out that the judges have also made positive or corrective comments. I haven't skated before a panel of judges yet, but I find it annoying that they make such comments towards skaters when they are not supposed to show such bias. I certainly would be more then a little peeved if a judge told me that adults shouldn't be skating, or some other remark that didn't directly relate to how I skated.

I also pointed out that it was unfair for a judge to say that someone should do something to suit the judges taste and not what the rules say. For a judge to say that a lady must wear a skirt for testing, even when there are no rules stating that she must do so is wrong. Same as it would be for a man if he didn't test in pants, testing is about your ability to skate, and not what you are wearing. And if one were to compete and not conform to the clothing guidelines, I would hope that they only receive the mandatory .1 point reduction and no more. However, as it was pointed out to me today, there was a female skater caused a great uproar for wearing a Robin Hood outfit, but they did not deduct any points. But I doubt that a man trying to portray a female figure would get the same kind of treatment. A man cannot even show his chest or bare arms according to the rules, while ladies have much more lax guidelines to follow.

As for my testing, I am working on it, I may go ahead and do both tracks, regular and adult, but right now I am working on my adult pre-bronze items as well as a compulsory and freestyle routine. My coach thinks I shall be ready for testing sometime in December as my back edges are a bit stinky at the moment (going to the pro shop and get the blades moved as I keep falling on the inside edges) but there are a number of things I am pretty good at, and for the first time in a while I heard my free leg was above my hips on my spiral! Yippie!

As for my attire for testing, I don't know yet, my coach called USFSA and they told her one thing, while the lady in charge of the clothing guidelines and such told me that the clothing restrictions do not apply to tests. Right now it’s a bit of a battle for what I'll be wearing for practice ice before the competition because she said she has been taking a lot of flak over my kilts already and doesn't need anymore stress. I wouldn't mind testing in non-traditional attire if I can, but honestly it's no biggie, as it's just clothing, but I do like the extra dimension that piece of fabric adds to ones skating. (even though for my initial testing it will just be edges and three turns, nothing really to get excited about)

Steven

[LWalsh]

Sometimes these things get out of hand...

Just so you are aware, "Passing" a test is different than mastering the skill. I point this out because it is quite the norm for a skater to be ready to take a test and receive just a passing score. In fact until you get to the higher standard tests it's almost unheard of for skaters to pass with anything other than the minimum (in my area anyway). Therefore unless you are really really great at your elements, you'll receive a deduction because that is likely to put you under the passing average.

I just think that if you worked really hard to be able to get your skills ready for testing you won't want something so silly to mess up your chances of acheivment.

Good Luck! and please let us know what you decide and what the outcome is

[skaternum]

Originally posted by SDFanatic
Oh my, what a thread! Unfortunately many assumptions have been made, of which I regret in not starting a new post as most of this is not relevant to what I was asking.

LOL! These threads really do seem to take on a bizarre life of their own. But that's sorta how a verbal conversation goes too. All it takes is one slightly tangential comment, then a reply to just that comment, then <poof> you've got a bizarre thread!

I haven't skated before a panel of judges yet, but I find it annoying that they make such comments towards skaters when they are not supposed to show such bias.
You're assuming that what people tell you about judges is true. How do you know what a judge wrote or what they meant or what the context was? A "nice blue dress" comment could have been the judge trying to find something nice to say on a test sheet or simply a little mental reminder so he could remember easily which skater that was in the 30 seconds he has to rank 16 different skaters. If you've never been the victim of judging bias in a test or competiton, I think you should refrain from assuming the worst. Judges work their butts off and give up HUNDREDS of hours of their free time. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Almost everyone I know who's ever failed a test was able to find some really good reason for why they failed. Usually the reason had nothing to do with the fact that they just didn't skate the test well. :roll:

I certainly would be more then a little peeved if a judge told me that adults shouldn't be skating, or some other remark that didn't directly relate to how I skated.

As you should be, but until it actually happens to you (not some friend of a friend) ... well, see the above comments.

I also pointed out that it was unfair for a judge to say that someone should do something to suit the judges taste and not what the rules say.

Agreed, but have you actually heard a judge say that?

However, as it was pointed out to me today, there was a female skater caused a great uproar for wearing a Robin Hood outfit, but they did not deduct any points.
Uh, what? If you're talking about Katarina Witt, how do you KNOW there weren't any points deducted? Do you have the judges individual score sheets? All I saw in the media were the final scores. You couldn't tell what the deductions were.

Your progress toward test goals is admirable. I hope you go out and have the skate of your life, no matter what you're wearing. Goodness knows, we need more adult skaters! I didn't mean to sound really harsh in that last post. I was trying to get a point across to a poster who misunderstood what I was saying. You have to decide what's right for you. I just hate to think that you may be basing some of your assumptions or actions on heresay or gossip or innuendo or whatever. I'm not saying that the occasional "bad" judge doesn't exist, but it really bugs me when people attribute all kinds of evil to a group of hard working volunteers.

[SDFanatic]

I'm going to combine my answer here, I have enough replies as it is!

Yes, passing a test and knowing how to do it are two different things, I am no stranger to that, (and I've seen people work for months to perfect the simplest things) Yes, I can do three turns, could they pass? Maybe, doing them on pattern? Needs some work! But if I practice hard and I get it perfected and I do test and not earn any significant deductions that would case me to fail, then I best not fail because of my looks, that would be uncalled for. I will accept being failed if my skating ability deserved it, but not if a judge thinks I should be wearing black boots instead of white, pants instead of a kilt, or yellow instead of blue.

Well, as for hearsay as to what a judge said or it's context, I shall say that many of the comments told to me were made by good friends of mine, I've never known them to lie. I've also been able to ask my question directly to three visiting judges, they were not amused, in the end they pretty much told me that figure skating is a women’s sport, and men should only skate in pairs. Now wether I just ruffled their feathers a bit being the only male skater asking such questions or if it was in fact their opinion, I'm not sure.

Mmm, I'm not sure if it was Katarina Witt, I am so bad with my memory at times trying to remember everything. You are right though, I do not know if she received any deductions for her attire, again, I heard this from someone second hand. Supposedly she did not, and she won first place also, but I agree, I didn't see her marks or remarks in person, or read any definitive truth, so please forgive.

And no, I don't think every judge is evil, it's one of those typical things, for every bad thing you hear, you don't hear the other nine good things. I take many things with a grain of salt, and it's not that I don't trust the comments made from people, but as with some things, your milage may vary.

Steven

[Mrs Redboots]

The thing is, judges are human beings and as such, are never going to be unbiassed. The best ones try very hard not to be - I know one judge, for instance, who really dislikes solo dance, but if he has to judge a solo dance class at a competition, or a solo dancer taking her test, he will do so fairly and to the best of his ability.

Here are two stories that I eyewitnessed quite recently. A friend of mine went out to take her Level 6 free dance test. After she had skated, the judges passed her, but then one of them asked for her coach to come forward. "Please could you indulge me, and go and skate it again," she asked the skater. "You've passed, no question of that, but I want to tell your coach what I dislike about what you are doing!" So on this occasion a judge, who had disliked the skater's style and some other things about the dance, nevertheless passed the skater. Please note, this is not hearsay - I was there at the time and heard what the judge had to say, although not to the coach as I went round the other side of the rink to tell the skater's mother what was happening!

But even judges lose it sometimes! At a recent competition, one judge marked several skaters a whole mark higher than the other judges were. He said afterwards that he'd "totally lost the plot" at one stage during the competition, and he admitted that he panicked when he realised what was happening, and wondered what on earth the other judges were seeing that he wasn't! It made for an interesting class..... and a friend who was trial-judging that day said the whole experience (it was her first competition) was utterly terrifying!