judges/parents -- what's appropriate???

[roja]

Well I feel really stupid, and I wonder if I've made a major faux pas in the skating world. I'm a parent who, being fairly new to the sport, asked for websites where I could learn more about skating in general, etc. Several people recommended this site, as well as another. Anyway, in the other site, I recognized one of the post-ers as a local judge (she used her actual name). I have never personally met this person. Anyway, she had just judged my daughter in a competition, and had judged her quite a bit lower than others on panel. I sent her an EXTREMELY polite message, inquiring (1) if it was appropriate for me to contact her at all, asking a specific question about a specific skater and (2) if it was appropriate, could she give me suggestions on what she'd like to see my daughter improve (in other words, what would have changed her mind and moved my daughter up, in her estimation). I ended the message by reiterating that if it wasn't appropriate for me to contact her this way, just reply email and let me know, and I'd understand---or something to that effect.

ANYWAY, she never emailed me back. I see she is still posting merrily away on the site where I found her, so I know she's online, etc. It's been a week since I emailed her. Did I screw up? I have to admit it kind of makes me mad -- who do these people think they are that they can't even respond to a question, even to say "please don't bother me." I guess it's possible that she never got my email, too, but now I am way embarrassed to re-send, thinking maybe this just isn't done. I thought I had seen parents and coaches speak to judges face-to-face at competitions with their questions, but...now I don't know what to think.

What did I do wrong? Thanks for your help!!
:oops:

[jp1andOnly]

Usually, if you want a judge to offer input about a skater, you can ask them after a test. And depending on how well the judge knows the skater (for example, has judged them 6 or 7 times) the judge may offer advice freely.

However, I don't think its the best etiquitte to contact a judge via email .Remember, judges judge on their own free time and usually would like to live their lives normally when not in "judging" attire and two, a judge sees hundreds of skaters a year so remembering them all is impossible.

I don't think its rude for this person not to reply. I often find myself too busy and mean to reply but months go by before I remember. Plus your email might not have went to the judge. And why does it matter what this one judge thinks? If the judge judges your daughter again and still gives low marks, afterwards talk to the judge or have the coach talk to the judge. Via email is not a good idea

As of now, I would forget all about it. And if you run into the judge at another competition or test day then by all means talk to them. They are people too

[Skatewind]

Are you saying you sent her a PM through the messageboard? If so, I don't think that is a good way at all to request feedback about a competition. The person may not check their PM messages on a regular basis or have it set up so they are notified via e-mail. Also, how do they know you are who you say you are when you message them this way?

The time to get feedback about a competition is while you are at the event or shortly after. Judges usually have to rank hundreds of skaters during a competition, they will not remember every single skater weeks after an event. They are not supposed to speculate about what could have moved your daughter up in the rankings, they are only supposed to judge the actual skating during the event.

If you are dissatisfied with your daughter's marks, let your coach know & have the coach seek feedback during the event if he/she concurs.

[tazsk8s]

Originally posted by Skatewind
The time to get feedback about a competition is while you are at the event or shortly after. Judges usually have to rank hundreds of skaters during a competition, they will not remember every single skater weeks after an event.

I think this is the key. The couple of times we have requested feedback from a judge, it has been immediately after the results were posted. We try to make sure my daughter is still at least in costume, so the judge is more likely to recognize her. I don't know what level Roja's daughter is, unless she is already "known" to the judge, chances are the judge doesn't remember her among the many other skaters they judged that day.

[vesperholly]

I don't think that it's appropriate for parents to ask judges for their opinions, because most parents don't understand skating. The only person who should get commentary from a judge is your skater's coach, because then they will fully understand the advice and know how to apply it to your skater as necessary.

[roja]

Oh, okay. I had emailed the judge immediately after the competition (the next morning actually) and my daughter's event was the last of the day, the night before, and she was one of the last skaters -- I knew the judge still might not remember! But one of the previous posts made an excellent point also, and that is, how does the judge know I am who I say I am? I could be somebody else's mom!! :)

As to why I cared, well, it quite frankly wasn't that big a deal at all. I just thought, hey, there's that judge I've seen online; maybe I can get some feedback from her. It wasn't life-or-death or anything. But then I felt really stupid when she didn't respond, even to say, sorry I can't help you.

However, I do think it's kind of elitist to say that only coaches can get feedback from judges, and not parents. I do not pretend to know anything compared to a coach, BUT!!! I certainly could have passed along to the coach whatever was said, right?

Finally, is there no source of information somewhere (usfsa?) that tells parents the etiquette of these kinds of things? How the heck are we supposed to know? I very much dislike this "shrouded in mystery" aspect to skating!! And maybe that was really my question all along; if I goofed up in contacting the judge, how was I to know that was wrong???

Geez, my son's football is so much more straightforward.
:roll: :)

[Skatewind]

Another problem I often see are parents & skaters who do not understand the judging system. Say for instance a skater had 4 1st ordinals, a 2nd, a 3rd, & a 13th, then there is a reason to get feedback from the judge who gave the 13. But some parents will demand feedback from judges where the skater had 5 10th ordinals, a 11th & a 13th, insisting on knowing why the judge gave the 13. It should be pretty self explanatory, without any feedback from judges, that overall improvement of the skater is what's needed. The coach & parent should review the other programs in the event & not micromanage the mark of one judge unless there are extreme circumstances.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by roja
However, I do think it's kind of elitist to say that only coaches can get feedback from judges, and not parents. I do not pretend to know anything compared to a coach, BUT!!! I certainly could have passed along to the coach whatever was said, right?
There are sports activities across the nation where the protocol for challenging or obtaining detailed information about a game, competition, whatever, is for the coach to follow-up not the parent. It's not something that is limited to skating. I disagree that it's elitist to suggest that the coach should be the first one you approach for information about your skater. The coach is being paid to explain things to help educate you as well as coach your skater.

[roja]

Well, I wasn't saying it's elitist to have the coach be the FIRST one to ask for info...I was saying it's elitist to exclude the parent from the process at all. I was saying, it's elitist to say the parent should never approach a judge. And I was also saying, if the parent is never supposed to approach a judge, that should be made really clear to us dumb parents. :evil:

I will ask again: how are parents supposed to know that they "can't" approach a judge? I once saw a dad jokingly getting cash out of his wallet to hand to a judge as the judge walked by. Okay, I am pretty sure this is not behavior to be applauded. :D But short of something extreme like that, I am increasingly frustrated with the invisible list of do's and don'ts that seems to change based on which coach or skating "expert" you're talking to. Frankly, I am confused. In no other sport that we've been involved with has there been so many "etiquette" worries. And in gymnastics, which is also a judged sport, the parent-judge communication line seemed a whole lot more open, to everyone's benefit and goodwill. Maybe that was just our experience though, who knows.

[jp1andOnly]

A parent can communicate with a judge but unless you know them quite well, you dont need to email them. As I stated earlier, they have a ton of skaters to remember, and even if it was right after the event, chances are the judges mind is now on their daytime job where they get paid. I'm a teacher(I teach elementary music) and I teach over 350 kids. If a parent was to email me right now after I taught their child music I wouldn't know which kid was which. A, because its the beginning of the school year, B 'cause I have 350 kids names to remember, C 'cause I don't have time to remember what little Jonny did in music class. It's very similar to judging. I set office hours where parents can approach me. If a parent sees me walking down the street and says hi, thats great. When they see me on the weekend and start asking questions about their kid, I basically ignore them.

So though it may seem elitest to you that parents are excluded, they are not. There is an apporpriate time and place. And the coach is the best way to go. They talk to the judge, or if you have any concerns you should approach your coach and ask what the protocol is.

Just keep filing away the information in your head and one day it may make sense :)

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by jp1andOnly
There is an appropriate time and place.
Exactly. No one ever said you can never speak to or approach a judge, but it should be reserved for serious inquiries & matters. And not done through e-mail after you found them on a message board. The judging job does not automatically include one on one education of the parent. That would be included in the coach's responsibilities. The coach is getting paid for it, the judge is not. The judges' time should not be wasted, especially considering so many of them are already overscheduled. Previously you indicated it wasn't even a big deal, which indicates this may have been an instance when contact with the judge wasn't really necessary. Imagine if every judge got an individual e-mail for general feedback from even 50% of the parents in every group they judged at a competition. When would they have time to judge?

Do you get the home phone# for the referee of your child's football game & call them at home after the event to do Monday morning quarterbacking? Does the referee expect to get one on one calls from every parent as part of his duties? I suspect not. Yet when someone can't demand this type of communication with judges from the very start in skating, then it's elitist. I disagree.

[skaternum]

Although there is definitely a skating culture with its own norms and standards of behavior, it's hardly mysterious. ASK YOUR COACH. Part of the coach's job is to help the skater and parent understand what's going on. If your coach is unable or unwilling to answer your questions or talk to judges or proactively help you navigate through these uncharted waters, get another coach.

[tbass]

Originally posted by roja

I will ask again: how are parents supposed to know that they "can't" approach a judge? I once saw a dad jokingly getting cash out of his wallet to hand to a judge as the judge walked by. Okay, I am pretty sure this is not behavior to be applauded. :D But short of something extreme like that, I am increasingly frustrated with the invisible list of do's and don'ts that seems to change based on which coach or skating "expert" you're talking to. Frankly, I am confused. In no other sport that we've been involved with has there been so many "etiquette" worries. And in gymnastics, which is also a judged sport, the parent-judge communication line seemed a whole lot more open, to everyone's benefit and goodwill. Maybe that was just our experience though, who knows.

As a judge, maybe I can help you a little. I rarely post anything online anymore for many reasons, but I agree with you that communication in the skating world is often lacking.

There is no reason at all that a parent can not approach a judge. And I actually encourage you to approach a judge if you have questions. However, I would also encourage you to ask those same questions of your coach before approaching the judge. If you are not satisfied with the answers that the coach provides, then both of you should approach the judge together. When I am approached by a parent alone, I will always ask where the coach is and if they are available to join in the discussion. Ultimately, they are the ones that are directing the skater and they should get the benefit of first hand commication to limit any misunderstandings.

In general, I would just use common sense. Judges can not discuss anyone other than your child with you and will never make direct comparisons between skaters except in generalities. Judges will never make public statements about an event that they judged. However, there is nothing secret about judging or the judges themselves. Most of us are very approachable and very willing to share our insights with anyone who cares to listen. We all love the sport and love to help skaters improve. So, think about how you would like to be approached if you were the judge. Email is a very anonymous tool and I think you will find more luck if you approach someone in person.

I would also say that if you know that you are going to want feedback, approaching someone before the event is a better idea than waiting until afterward. For large events it is difficult to remember everyone in any sort of detail after the event is over. If I know ahead of time that a critique is going to be given, I will take more complete notes than I would otherwise. I also wouldn't question a placement unless it was greater than 4 placements difference from the final result. (For instance, don't ask a judge why they placed a skater 2nd instead of 1st....And that happens more than you might expect.)

I hope that helps clear up your confusion and makes you feel better.

Tanya

[arena_gal]

More test related: our test chair sits down with the judge at the end of the test day and asks generally what the judge thinks about the level of skating in our club. Usually we get told to hold more stroking sessions. Without referring to a single skater a few years ago, we got the message that a certain coach was not doing things in the best interest of the skaters. The judge really wanted to tell us that but needed a way for it to be said.

[Mrs Redboots]

Part of the problem is that at the end of a long day of competitions, the judges are absolutely exhausted and longing for nothing more than a nice cup of tea, and perhaps a hot bath if they've been sat in a cold rink all day!

Some judges tend to avoid skaters (I'm talking of adult skaters here, who are far freer to approach a coach directly) during or after a competition simply because they are so tired they probably wouldn't make sense. After a test session, however, it's another matter. And it also depends on the judge's personality, on how long a journey they're about to have to make, on all sorts of things. My golden rule is that if a judge looks as though s/he is heading determinedly for the exit, I let them go. If they are hanging around looking for someone to talk to, I approach them.....

[roja]

[As a judge, maybe I can help you a little. I rarely post anything online anymore for many reasons, but I agree with you that communication in the skating world is often lacking.

There is no reason at all that a parent can not approach a judge. And I actually encourage you to approach a judge if you have questions. However, I would also encourage you to ask those same questions of your coach before approaching the judge. If you are not satisfied with the answers that the coach provides, then both of you should approach the judge together. When I am approached by a parent alone, I will always ask where the coach is and if they are available to join in the discussion. Ultimately, they are the ones that are directing the skater and they should get the benefit of first hand commication to limit any misunderstandings.

In general, I would just use common sense. Judges can not discuss anyone other than your child with you and will never make direct comparisons between skaters except in generalities. Judges will never make public statements about an event that they judged. However, there is nothing secret about judging or the judges themselves. Most of us are very approachable and very willing to share our insights with anyone who cares to listen. We all love the sport and love to help skaters improve. So, think about how you would like to be approached if you were the judge. Email is a very anonymous tool and I think you will find more luck if you approach someone in person.

I would also say that if you know that you are going to want feedback, approaching someone before the event is a better idea than waiting until afterward. For large events it is difficult to remember everyone in any sort of detail after the event is over. If I know ahead of time that a critique is going to be given, I will take more complete notes than I would otherwise. I also wouldn't question a placement unless it was greater than 4 placements difference from the final result. (For instance, don't ask a judge why they placed a skater 2nd instead of 1st....And that happens more than you might expect.)

I hope that helps clear up your confusion and makes you feel better.

==
Actually this helps a lot. And I now realize that it was pretty thoughtless to just throw out an email -- yes, I meant what I said when I posted that it wasn't even a big deal. I just thought I'd fish for some feedback, esp. since that judge had marked her low (4 places lower to be exact). But I didn't stop to think about "what if" all the parents went on a similar fishing trip! Yikes!! And quite honestly, when I was remembering better judge/parent feedback from gymnastics, it was in person, too. Okay. Thanks!

[roja]

oops I think I messed up quoting in the above post...sorry about that...those are the wise words of "tanya" not me (top half)...

I just thought of something else. This really is unappealing to me because now I feel bad for emailing her in the first place, but should I email the judge again and apologize for bugging her??? I am guessing NO unless a bunch of you say I should!!

[Dolly]

Roja,

I think you can delete the e-mail you already sent, providing it hasn't been opened yet. Just right click on it, and press delete. It may ask if you want to delete from all Mailboxes.

I've sent an e-mail or two in the past,which I've deleted. Hope this helps.

[icesktrkidz]

As a parent of skaters, and an ex-competitive skater many years ago, I may have a little insight that may help ROJA.

First, I agree with the previous poster that if you have a coach that will not approach the judges, get a new one. (I've had to do this to a very good friend and ex-competitor of mine.) Case in fact - my daughter did quite badly at a competition and I asked why. The coach refused to ask the judges - so I did. The judge in this case explained to me that he did NOT like little girl jumps (not high enough off the ice). We took his advice and got her jumps BIG. (In order to do this we had to leave our coach and go somewhere else). Every time we see this judge we thank him for his honesty. My daughter is always receiving comments on how great her jumps are. This judge has also told us that we are the only ones who have ever thanked him for his opinion.

Secondly,you are the one paying the coach. If a coach doesn't want to loose you as cash flow then the refusal to approach a judge may mean that this coach actually knows what the judges are going to say and doesn't want to have to confront you with outcome. This may be some sort of technical glitch your daughter has or a deficiency in his or her coaching. This coach may not want to loose his/her income but this will happen eventually when you get disatisfied with the quality of your daughters skating.

Thirdly, ALWAYS ALWAYS do this face to face and asap to the end of the event. Judges are more than happy to give their opinion on your particular skater. If it can be of help they do want your child to do well (this only keeps skating going). Yes, they do judge hundreds of individuals in weekend, and yes, sometimes they do get skaters confused. They are put in situations that have them working in freezing temps, all day with few breaks, for no pay. Would you like to do this in your free time? So yes errors occur - mostly at the lower levels and sometimes at the higher levels, but they get fewer and fewer as you progress up the levels. Always remain courteous and
never let your emotions run wild. (This is the hardest just because it's your child). Always thank them for their time and comments.

With this info you should get along pretty well. And remember if you have to fire a coach , it's not going to be easy, but it's in the best interest of your child.

[roja]

thanks again to all :D

[Elsy2]

Sometime critiques are offered at certain competitions, but usually for Intermediate level and up. It's a great opportunity to get feedback from a judge, so don't miss this if you have the chance.

I think we all have been in a position where one mark from a judge was out of line. There have been events where the marks are all over the place particularly for those in the middle of the pack. I guess after time you sort of "get used to it" and try to second guess what one judge may have been giving credit for over the others. Sometimes it's speed, program content, ice coverage, clean jumps, beyond the minimum spin rotations, difficult footwork, etc. It often helps to have a video of the event to see things that you may have missed at the time. But keep in mind that videos often magnify errors that really can't always be seen.

Anyway, just wanted you to know you are not alone in wondering what the heck someone was looking at, and why there was a certain placement!

[Mrs Redboots]

I remember one competition where a friend of mine had one judge give her almost a whole mark below the others. I said to her, "What did he notice that the others had missed?" and apparently she had caught her foot in a rut just in his line of sight, but where his body would have blocked the other judges from noticing! So sometimes there's a reason for one judge seeming "out of line" with the others; other times, that particular judge is marking a little low or high, but his or her placements resonate with the others.

[KJD]

I agree that feedback can be a really good thing. Unfortunately, it is really hard to get it if your child is below Intermediate, since they don't offer critiques. And yes, I agree with whoever above said that it is the coach's responsibility. We had this happen to us at an event quite a bit earlier this year. My daughter skated her first time at prelim with a new axel and double sal. She fell on one sal, landed the second and squeeked out both axels, one in combo. She's little - 7 at the time. She tied for 4th with one judge placing her second to last (out of 12 skaters) - so it was quite a different mark. I forced the coach to ask the judge what she had seen that she wanted fixed and he did it , albeit reluctantly. Unfortunately this judge has a not so good reputation about being very defensive when questioned and the coach was worried about retaliation against my daughter and potentially some of his other skaters. But.... he did it and she responded that my little one was slow (she was) and pulled up on her toes before her axel (she did) and had sloppy spins (she did). This was a GREAT wake up call to my daughter who had been told these things by the coach, but hadn't really been "listening". Two weeks later - huge axels and double sals and a lot more speed. So now when she has a tiny jump, or just goes through the motions, the coach kids her with " and what would XXXX say about that effort...."

So worth getting the feedback, even with a slightly unwilling judge.

[Skatewind]

A lot of clubs or judges are willing to try to help with feedback, sometimes in conjunction with test sessions or other activities. Check with your test chairman or club personnel to see if it's something they will help arrange. Usually they will try to help when it's something that would be beneficial to a number of skaters, not only yours, in the club.