A regionals qualifying story (really long)

[KJD]

We had an interesting experience this weekend which I debated sharing but thought maybe it would be interesting for those with kids who were spending their August trying to pass tests for regionals. My daughter is a pre-juv skater (a little one, at 8 years old) who started doing pairs with an 11 year old boy in February of this year. This boy was a hockey player, and a good one, whose sister skates and had started pairs the year before. He thought pairs looked so cool that he decided he wanted to give figure skating a try so he could do pairs too.

He started figure skating in January and he and my daughter were paired up, mostly just for fun and because she had expressed an interest in it, in late Feb. They have had the most fun with this and boy have they progressed in such a short period of time. In April, their coach decided what the heck, let's see if we can get them through their juv moves, so they could do juv pairs, since its the lowest qualifying level for pairs at regionals. It was a long shot initially but as the summer progressed, he really thought they had a legitimate chance for it.

He in particular, had a long road - all of the moves tests through juv to do, learning to skate like a figure skater, learning to jump, learning to spin, learning pairs - whew! And wow did he step up to the plate! He passed through his pre-juv moves by the beginning of July. He started landing axels in June, double sals this summer and he can even do a camel sit and flying camel. They spent an extra hour 4 mornings a week doing pairs, got a lutz lift this summer and are just now landing throw axels -and they are little, 8 and 11.

They both took their juv moves at the beginning of August and were given retrys. We are in a really difficult area for moves. They worked their butts off all during August and we were down to this last test session this weekend. Our coach had the "head" judge of our area come out to see their pairs stuff last month and their moves and she said their pairs were great for such a short time, their moves needed some work but it was doable - his moves were actually better than hers.

So...this weekend they took their last shot at it. My daughter skated first and passed with no reskate.(mom took a walk at that point because she couldn't handle watching) The boy skated his and did a pretty nice job. He was given a reskate on his back cross strokes. I heard later that it was sort of an attitude of "he's new so we're going to show him that he has to 'work' to pass. They told him he needed to flow more. Our "head" judge didn't say much as she had already passed him and wasn't the one who wanted a reskate. He asked what "flow" meant and the one judge with the issue said "flow, you know flow!" He had no idea (from his total of 8 months in figure skating) He and coach thought it was setting down on toepicks was the issue, so he reskated trying to correct that. The other two judges failed him because they had wanted speed. The hard part for all of us was that one of those judges who failed him knew they were trying for the pair but let herself be talked into taking the marks down by the other.

Bless his soul! What a blow. For them both really, but mostly for him. We were on our way out the door when we were told that the "head" judge lady wanted us to go through the pair test anyway and for him to take my daughter through it. I really wavered as I didn't see the point. We weren't going to regionals without him, and I didn't want him to feel any worse (she passes 2 and he gets nothing). So I said no. I was told emphatically at that point to put them out there. So I finally said that if he was ok with it, we would do it.
I think that the one judge maybe wanted the others to see what they had just denied to go to regionals by failing him.

They skated great! He was such a gentleman. He attacked that program with an "I want to just show them what I can do" attitude and a smile on his face. They got a standing O after every element. It was a riot.

So, as disappointing as this was for all of us, my hat goes off to him. What a great kid. We're proud to have him as my daughter's partner.

[Mile 129]

What a great story. And what professionalism and maturity displayed by all of you. Sadly, this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last time myopic officials haven't been able to see the forest for the trees. But the karma is ever dependable. When this pair is on the podium, you will have the final word.

Best of luck. Attitude is everything!

[Bogie88]

KJD--

My hat is off to this young man (as well as your daughter, how frustrating!), but in defense of the judges, juvenile moves are tough, and it is their responsibility to ensure that the skaters can demonstrate strength, power, flow across the ice and secure edges, among other things. Tests are not just for getting to the next level, they are to ensure that the skater actually has the skills required at that level. We thought we were doing pretty good with our kid passing through Juvenile tests in a year and a half! What an awesome accomplishment for those two kids, and just think how far along they will be next year. Congratulations, and keep us posted on their progress!

[KJD]

Bogie88,
Thanks so very much for thoughts our way. To answer the other part about the standard of the test, he actually had good speed, security and pretty good edges. To put it in some perspective, the judges were being much more lax with this test session than the previous one as they knew a lot of these kids needed to get through. Also, in their defense, I don't think the ingoing intent was to fail him. It was to prove that "we are going to give you a hard time, so you know that this isn't easy and you have to work hard, etc." It was what I would call a bit of a power play. The problem was it backfired. They attempted to exert their "influence" by making him reskate when in fact his cross strokes were considerably better than the test skated right before that passed with no reskate. They didn't know he didn't understand and they couldn't be bothered to explain it to him more clearly - they didn't take into account his lack of experience in this sport. So he didn't do what they asked for...and they failed him. The "head judge lady" actually passed him, but then she wasn't the one with the issue.

So I don't actually have a problem with the fact that the standard is the standard. Its just that he could have met that standard without issue (he really already had) - trust me, he's a big strong kid, he had no problem generating speed. It was just somewhat thoughtless maybe to make him do it to begin with, and then not to ensure that he understood what they meant. He even practiced once before the reskate and it should have been clearly obvious he didn't understand, as he was going very carefully trying to ensure he didn't step back on toepicks or an inside edge. From the stands we all assumed he had been told, don't step on an inside edge or toepicks as that was what he had been told on the retry on his last test.

But, he's a great kid. And he'll be back. They'll both be back.

[Skatewind]

It sounds like they will make a really good team for juvenile pairs next year & from their ages, it seems like they will have plenty of time to develop even more skills to make their first qualifying competition successful.

Judges are not to converse during testing other than to request a reskate or determine which judge is the JIC. They are prohibited from discussing marks they are giving a skater or other such info for the duration of the test. If these judges were conversing as you've indicated while the test was in progress, or discussing in advance who was passing or failing the test, it seems your coach would have an issue that could be discussed with your club's test chair. However, I have helped at test sessions for over ten years, working directly with the judges retrieving & sorting papers & such, & they are always very mindful of these procedures. I can't think of one judge, during that time, who I've heard discussing a skater's test inappropriately while the test was still underway.

Skaters where I live might easily get stuck at juvenile MIF if they do not understand the concept of flow by that point, & it is the coach's responsibility, not the judge's, to make sure they know it & have a complete test that's ready to go. That is not a problem with the skater, it only means some additional time to develop is needed, & that's not necessarily a bad thing when some of the juvenile teams are competing at that level for multiple years. This boy sounds like a hard worker who has what it takes for skating & I hope you will continue to encourage him.

[sonora]

Important testing lesson to be learned here:

When the judge or panel calls the skater over and asks for a reskate, the skater may consult with the coach. The judge/panel should tell the skater this. The skater should ALWAYS go to the coach and let the coach know what was said.

The skater should be given the opportunity to warm up the move or element. Then, consult the coach again. I am not trying to advocate longer test sessions here, just that the skater should know what his options are, and should consult the coach to clarify any misunderstandings.

A reskate is only to be given if it could benefit the skater. If there is no chance the skater can pass there is no need for a reskate. Giving a reskate because the element is passing but you think the skater can do the move better is NOT an appropriate reason for a reskate. Nor is being tough on the skater, etc.

When a skater ie being given the reason for the reskate he should be asked if he understands. "We would like to see more push. Do you understsand?"

If he says no the judge in charge should explain it until he does understand.

[KJD]

Sonora,
Amen to your statements. I'll have to admit that I've been to a lot of test sessions and this one was a bit odd. We had one girl who I think is not a member of our club as I've never seen her before, who also took her Juv moves test - she skated right before my daughter. They were unfortunately really not good moves at all. On any other of our test sessions, she would have been given an automatic retry mostly because every single move was majorly flawed in some way. But she got a retry on one element - and then they failed her. It was bizarre. I couldn't figure out what the point was. And that seems to be happening more often in our area than it used to.

And while I agree that judges are absolutely not to confer, they often do to be honest. I'm actually a skater as well, and last winter I got a retry on my Gold Moves. One judge passed me, the other two didn't. They handed me the papers and I thought "well at least I got one judge". Then the runner lady came back and said that she needed the papers back as she had given me the "wrong papers". When she returned, the one pass had been erased to a retry. All the marks had been erased and brought down. Apparently the one judge had been "suggested to" by the chief judge of that day, that it should be a retry and to change the marks - so she did. It was very, very strange.

[Skatewind]

What you have described is against USFSA policy. Are you sure they did not give trial judge papers or something by mistake? I don't know what area you're in, but that doesn't happen at tests in our area. If it is the way tests are actually being judged & test sessions conducted, it's surprising there aren't complaints being filed by parents, skaters, coaches with the skating club.

Sometimes people misinterpret the marking system & procedures when it comes to tests, rather than analyzing the details. For instance, why was the skater given a reskate (not a retry) on one of the moves? A reskate need only be requested by one judge if the test would be in passing range (.1 or .2) by reskating one move. Maybe the other two judges had already marked retry, but the third judge wanted the reskate because it would mean a pass by that judge. Maybe not. But whatever happened could easily be misinterpreted as all 3 judges collectively sending a message to the skater when that may have not been the case. Same for the previous example given about why one skater passed the test doing one move poorly compared the the boy who got a reskate & still failed. Maybe the skater failed that move but others passably & attained a high enough score to pass, whereas another skater could skate one move very well but was marked down on 2 or more other moves.

I know coaches who have 95% success rate with the moves tests & others who have 65% failure rate. I regularly hear a coach or two in the latter category use the "you were robbed" justification for a bad test. I've even seen it said when skaters weren't doing the right steps on the moves, forget about poor quality. It seems like the ones who are the most successful with the moves are the ones who plan ahead, ask questions, don't rush the tests & expect their skaters to put the time into learning to skate correctly not only to jump & spin.

[KJD]

Skatewind,
I'll try to answer your questions the best that I can. First, yes I am sure that they didn't give me the trial judge papers by mistake. It was clearly signed by this judge and we remarked, "well, so and so passed you - and she knows adult skating well, so that is good". I still have a copy of the test papers and you can clearly see all of the eraser marks and original marks with the new ones on top. I will say that I have never heard of that happening in our area before, so hopefully it was simply an isolated moment.

Second, our coaches actually have a very high pass rate on the moves. Its one of the reasons why when we paired up with the boy, that we pushed hard for him to skate with the same coach for his singles and moves. They know what the judges want, almost never put a test out that isn't ready, and in general have a lot of success from that perspective. They are very big on fundamentals and obviously from my perspective, I think they are very good coaches.

I am definitely aware of why we give reskates. As I said, I skate and have passed through Juv moves, silver freeskate and all of my bronze dances, so I've had some experience with that. Yes, if you are within .2, you should be given a reskate on an element that was an issue to try to bring it up. On my juv moves, I was actually given a choice of 2 (LOL I guess they were both not good) and we picked the one we had the most confidence would boost my score the most to make up for the other. However, all I have to go on here is experience with what has happened in our area. On the last test session, when both kids were given a retry, they both were given reskates on a particular element and still failed. On the example I gave you for my gold moves, I was given a reskate and still failed even though the reskate was considerably better on the element in question than the original attempt.

I am most definitely not a judge and so couldn't comment on the skater that went before the boy, other than to say from my perspective only, the moves were not strong. That isn't to say his were better, I couldn't tell you. I would say the one was pretty much on par with the other, different strengths perhaps and different weaknesses.

Anyway, I really hadn't meant for this to digress into a discussion on the judging. It was what it was - I just thought he handled the situation so well for such a young, inexperienced kid that I was really proud of him even though he's not my son. It shows some goodness of character I think and I'm simply glad to know him

[Sk8Bunny]

KJD- I want to make a suggestion to you, of course you dont have to do this, but thought i would post it anyways. Heres my proposol:
A couple times a year my mom gives me a hallmark warm wishes card. they are the 99 cent cheap ones. lol. Anyways, she will give them to me at various times. Like when I start school, i might find a warm wishes card on my pillow the night before the first day back and it has a little encouragment note in it. othertimes i get one for doing something good in school, or skating, etc. And sometimes, i will find one from her just for the heck of it, she just lets me know im appriecated and loved. I ADORE these cards and save everyone of them! I think it is so thoughtful of her and she probably doesnt really how i much i really treasure them. Anyways, back to my point. The young boy you described sounds like an extraordinary young person, and my suggestion would be maybe for you to get him a warm wishes card and give it to him. Stick it in his skate bag while he is practicing or something so he will find it later. It is a lot funner to kinda hide the card instead of just handing it to someone. Im sure you and many others have already told him your proud of him because of that test session, but i bet he wouldnt mind getting a warm wishes note! you can find them in the card section of most stores, ie target walmart, etc. again, they are called hallmark warm wishes and are only 99 cents! I wish your daughter and him the best of luck in the future- sounds like your daughter is one of the luckiest girls to be partnered with such a great person!